Pope compares secularism to Nazism - Page 9

On September 19 2010 18:18 Evil_Monkey_ wrote:
I feel like I've been trolled so hard by so many people in this thread. I'm not gonna open this again.

On September 19 2010 16:45 blitzkrieger wrote:
If Hitler used the Church for anything it was just that, to use them. I'm pretty sure Japanese aren't a master race according to Hitler (or Italians for that matter) yet he enlisted their aid to accomplish his own goals. If Hitler had won I am sure he would have disposed of not only the Church but also Japan when he saw fit.

I mean even if you believe the Catholic Church helped Hitler I don't think anyone believes that Christian values and Nazism have any real similarities. And its in the Christian religion that the Church (organization) can and will become corrupt, it was said be Jesus too.

If you take away religion you are just left with natural selection. And people will abuse that to say who is "fit" or not and be even more selfish. I mean WW2 already had that. Life is a FFA where every action is to gain and everyone are really enemies. There is no justification for anything except to further oneself. Things like abortion are already accepted by many and soon we will have designer babies because "its not a life". They already do selective abortion in China for women which is a huge problem, I read there will be 120million bachelors in China in a few years because they aborted so many female babies, wish I had the source...

I think atheism is the most dangerous thing out there because it removes all restraints and takes away any morals and inserts nothing. Human beings are selfish and evil and taking off the restraints will unleash the monster. You can justify anything with atheism as long as if further's your own goals. Atheists are only accountable to themselves and can easily change any moral or value. We have already seen it with Hitler, Stalin, and Mao among others. Human beings become expendable and their is no value to life (look at abortion). People are already selfish and apathetic but the rise in militant atheism is going to make it even worse.

Most people believe this even though the internet, and gaming are filled with young liberals/atheists for the most part so I'll get like 50 flames for this but I don't care. You can criticize me and the Pope all you want but I should be able to criticize atheism just as well.

On September 19 2010 18:22 Half wrote:
Religiously crazy people are always trolling. Its a subconscious thing.

Also, I think criticism of religion mostly applied to the institutionalization of religion. Whether it is Islam, Christianity or Judaism, the so called religious leaders/moral authorities are usually bigots who do not abide by their own rules and abuse their power basis.

Institutionalized religions have demonstrated a tendency to be utterly intolerant of people who do not share their values. hence, as Georga Carlin put it: Thou shalt keep they religion to thyself!

On September 19 2010 18:28 Half wrote:



If the bigots were just genuinely retarded, I'd almost be ok, but 99% of the time they're not. They're using the fervor of there followers for personal secular gain.

The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are purely secular for both sides. Religion is but a tool one of the sides employs. I have to say its very effective. This pretty much applies to almost every single war ever fought.

On September 19 2010 17:55 snpnx wrote:



Your whole premise is wrong. You're looking at atheists and say that because we do not believe in a higher power than ourselves, we would turn on all morale and become an anarchistic society where everyone just does as they wish. If there is no God to account to, you have to account for all the actions you are doing yourself. You're not left with "nothing", you're left with the realization that you're the only one accountable for what you're doing, no one else. I am fairly certain that you know at least a bit of philosophy? I do concur with you that humans do things mostly for their own gain, which is a philosophical theory called utilitarianism (Even though there are probably many atheists that would argue different) but that would not necessarily lead to a world that is worse than now. Most humans do want to live in Peace, and having no God above you doesn't change that. It is not that because I do not believe in God, suddenly I want to rape women or kill people or have a bad morale. Of course the church and even the religions themselves are instilling thoughts like that the world would fall into anarchy into their followers, given that it is necessary to keep them.
For the church to prevail it has to have some kind of use for the humans (you see, even religious people use this) Now if you take away the life after death and salvation (things we cannot prove or disprove) then what is there left that the church can bring you? It's only the promise that everything would go worse if people were atheists, where it probably would either stay the same, or become only better.
Most of the major conflicts in this world have had and still have religion as their basis. In this way, religion probably leads to more man-made death than anything else. People die and kill for "their God" for as long as we can think of religion, and you're saying Atheism would be worse?

I am in no way saying that the world suddenly would turn peaceful when everyone would be an atheist, but I do believe that it would not be worse than it is now, I think it could be even better.

On September 19 2010 18:24 Electric.Jesus wrote:
@ Blitzkrieger: Ever occured to you that you iron belief in Utilitarianism might be close to a religion, too?

There is compelling evidence that humans frequently help strangers even when it is obvious that the stranger will never pay back the debt and when helping is costly. See for example work by Ernst Fehr and his group (published e.g. in Science and Nature).

Not every person is a straightforward utilitarian. Not every person acts only according to rationally calculating future benefits. Most people are not entirely rational. Most people have a sense of moral that is not dependend on a religious faith and act according to it.

Also, I think criticism of religion mostly applied to the institutionalization of religion. Whether it is Islam, Christianity or Judaism, the so called religious leaders/moral authorities are usually bigots who do not abide by their own rules and abuse their power basis.

Institutionalized religions have demonstrated a tendency to be utterly intolerant of people who do not share their values. hence, as George Carlin put it: Thou shalt keep they religion to thyself!

Edit: Just read that the chatholic church tried to dopwnplay the pope's nazi comparison. >The choice of words is brilliant, though (quote from BBC): However, the Catholic Church has moved to play down the controversy, saying the Pope knew "rather well what the Nazi ideology is about".

On September 19 2010 18:39 blitzkrieger wrote:


Your the last post I'm going to answer since most aren't even much more than trolling/BM and I didn't see ur post. Ugh I'm so tired this is gonna be a bad post...

I'm not saying it will be anarchist. I'm saying that Evolution will present things like mass genocide/ethnic cleansing etc on a much larger scale. I know many people don't consider abortion to be killing but its basically the biggest genocide we've ever had. And who decides what is life and what isn't? What has value and what doesn't? Who is God so to speak? Everything becomes arbitrary and laws lose their value because they have no basis. Its kind of like what gun control people argue, guns allow all these bad things to happen. Its not that every atheist is a bloodthirsty babykiller who blends kittens but it allows any act to be acceptable. You can't say X is right or wrong.

Right now you could view religion as a huge lock on human nature. Humans are under control and if it were removed all hell would break loose even if you don't believe religion is true or valid. You might not change much but other people would. People become expendable and a resource. A lot of crimes are done because people use techniques of neutralization, meaning they justify it in their own mind. Not everyone is intelligent either. Most people don't have educations and not many go to college. People often due bad things simply because they don't understand it as being wrong

Ugh I'm so tired this is probably a bunch of crap...

But what I am trying to say is if you are deeply religious you can act right even if it means you don't get rewards.

Most of the conflicts are about resources and masked by religion.

The only way I can see an atheist future was if we found some way of having near infinite resources, and there could still be problems because power/control/pecking scale can never be infinite.

3am... cant think, I played like 4hrs of sc2 before this too...

On September 19 2010 18:43 hifriend wrote:

then why do secularized nations like sweden and japan have such low crime rates?

e: sleep tight

On September 19 2010 18:39 blitzkrieger wrote:



But what I am trying to say is if you are deeply religious you can act right even if it means you don't get rewards.

Most of the conflicts are about resources and masked by religion.

The only way I can see an atheist future was if we found some way of having near infinite resources, and there could still be problems because power/control/pecking scale can never be infinite.

3am... cant think, I played like 4hrs of sc2 before this too...

On September 19 2010 18:13 blitzkrieger wrote:


Every act is to gain.

On September 19 2010 16:45 blitzkrieger wrote:
If Hitler used the Church for anything it was just that, to use them. I'm pretty sure Japanese aren't a master race according to Hitler (or Italians for that matter) yet he enlisted their aid to accomplish his own goals. If Hitler had won I am sure he would have disposed of not only the Church but also Japan when he saw fit.

I mean even if you believe the Catholic Church helped Hitler I don't think anyone believes that Christian values and Nazism have any real similarities. And its in the Christian religion that the Church (organization) can and will become corrupt, it was said be Jesus too.

If you take away religion you are just left with natural selection. And people will abuse that to say who is "fit" or not and be even more selfish. I mean WW2 already had that. Life is a FFA where every action is to gain and everyone are really enemies. There is no justification for anything except to further oneself. Things like abortion are already accepted by many and soon we will have designer babies because "its not a life". They already do selective abortion in China for women which is a huge problem, I read there will be 120million bachelors in China in a few years because they aborted so many female babies, wish I had the source...

I think atheism is the most dangerous thing out there because it removes all restraints and takes away any morals and inserts nothing. Human beings are selfish and evil and taking off the restraints will unleash the monster. You can justify anything with atheism as long as if further's your own goals. Atheists are only accountable to themselves and can easily change any moral or value. We have already seen it with Hitler, Stalin, and Mao among others. Human beings become expendable and their is no value to life (look at abortion). People are already selfish and apathetic but the rise in militant atheism is going to make it even worse.

Most people believe this even though the internet, and gaming are filled with young liberals/atheists for the most part so I'll get like 50 flames for this but I don't care. You can criticize me and the Pope all you want but I should be able to criticize atheism just as well.