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On September 07 2010 06:07 oogles wrote:
In online poker, a lot of people do some insane multi-tabling (play 10, 20, 30 games at at time). This requires a lot of multi-tasking and APM actually. It's a small detail but I think they are related skills.
With the big difference that APM in poker doesn't have much at all to do with mechanics. Everyone can learn the actual mechanics for multitabling poker but not everyone can manage to master good micro/macro mechanics in an RTS game.
The similarities in multitabling poker and playing SC2 is the multi-tasking and being able to adjust the way you play based on the information you are given. However in poker there is a way to play perfect (not that it has been solved yet, google "GTO" or "game theory optimal") where you will in the long run at worst break even if your opponent plays perfect as well, which there really isn't in SC/SC2 (if the game is completely balanced all strategies can be countered).
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There's GTO strategy and then there's optimal execution which isn't really a part of game theory.
Problem is that how well you can execute (say, micro mutalisks) in part decides how viable various strategies are (say, 2hat muta vs terran) which complicates the whole "strategy vs execution" thing.
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This isn't SC related but is related to PC Gaming and poker.
http://www.fulltiltpoker.com/johnathan-wendel
Fatal1ty, a top Quake player and one of the most famous gamers, plays poker online. People from so many different background play poker.
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On August 14 2010 19:21 Viruuus wrote:Personally, ive been good at gaming in general ( not starcraft ) a couple of years ago, i wasnt ubergreat, but i made around 30.000 euros playing computer games (mostly unreal tournament and WC3). I always was good at games, so when i watched the movie Rounders i wanted to try poker aswell, and when playing it online, it really feels just like playing some computer game. I didnt make as much as Elky, but i still wont have to worry about work in the next couple of years, but i never realized it to be real money when i played for it until i tried playing poker live, which is fun but reaaaaaalllly slow  So i guess, since the mind of a gamer is also very good for a poker player, it is clever for poker site affiliates to try and get those ppl to play through their sites, since they are most likely to become long term winning players and therefore make them alot of money. Thats why alot of advertisements are linked on gaming sites that refer to poker. Another reason might simple be: Everyone and their mum has tried poker or something similar in their life, and the average joe does it for a couple of times and loses on average 500$ (this is internet poker long term statistics) before he quits. That way he will never be recognized as a poker player, while a good gamer (read: starcraft player) will more likely be successful, like elky and partly Grrr and many more. Actually, when i visited places to play poker like vegas, i always met alot of young ppl with gaming background, alot of them were superrich through poker. Fact is, most of them werent the best gamers, since ppl who are really good at one thing wont convert as easily as the talented players who never practised enough to make it to the top.
Are you the Virus of UT Classic fame (mTw, pretty good with the dreaded Flak gun iirc)?
Poker is a lot easier than SC2 imo and you can make money immediately if you're any good. Anyone with the will to grind out 8h a day of pro/semipro gaming could make some decent money playing small stakes holdem. The biggest challange is psychology and being able to handle losing money
Sick SC players with insane APM could probably 12+ table rush poker :D
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hmmm i've been actually thinking of this lately, and also if anyone would care to teach me the basics of poker i'd be VERY thankful, i am a good starcraft player and have always thought about playing poker as well, thanks
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On August 14 2010 19:51 chinaski.chinaski wrote:
i think connection of starcraft/chess/,insert your fav game> for success in poker is way overstimated
Well, success in SC and success in chess aren't incredibly correlated. Some people simple physically cannot become the top players in chess. Chess is basically just working with a supercomplex logic framework that grows in complexity every turn, and whoever messes up first loses. Its a game of complete information and no imperfect executions. The minds of top chess players literally function differently then everyone else.
Poker on the other hand, is intuitive. If your smart enough to be pro at Starcraft, you possess the same intuitive skills needed to be good at poker, and likely the discipline as well.
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Trends show that because I am a competitive gamer, I will be better at poker than non-gamers. So if your a non-gamer and you want to invest in me to learn poker and play poker, then send me a pm. You supply the funding, I gamble with them, and I'll split 75%/25% my way on whatever winnings I make.
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i'd probably say that they are just much more dedicaded than most people
thats why they succeed at games and thats why they succeed in whatever they wanna do
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On September 06 2010 19:59 cz wrote:
Just a quick note, I wouldn't get into poker to make money at all anymore if you are new. The difficulty of the games just doesn't make it a good investment: find something more useful for your time. If you want to make a ton of money, study hard and go to med school or law school or spend your time working on your own business. Don't try to get into poker to make money: it is no longer anywhere near a good choice. If you enjoy the game, though, play it.
I agree with this, unless you'd be content with grinding out 100nl at best or so.
clowntable, if youre the same clowntable from 2p2/ftp i'm surprised you don't know that rush caps tables at 4 
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I am and you can play 4x6max; 4xFR and a lower limit. I'd be curious to see how many rush tables guys with 200+ APM could handle without any noticable stress (I'd also be interested in measuring my APM while playing rush) :D
I can't play more than 4x6m+4xFR without my brain frying though, my concentration drops very noticably at > 5 tables already, hourly is probably capped somewhere around 8 tables though
I usually prefer to add 4x6m tables from one limit below to the 4 of my regular limit because FR is pretty tilting
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Oh, I don't play FTP anymore so I didn't know that, guess that makes sense .
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hmm i think the ability to make instant, informed decisions based off of minimal knowledge is the biggest crossover between the two.
knowing what the other player has (and how likely he is to win) off how he bets and reacts isn't so different from guessing the other players entire build order and timings off of when he took his gas
plus, mind games are still mind games whether you're in a bo5 or at a table at wsop
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To be totally honest I used to think along the lines of everyone else, but after more thought I think the main reason that starcraft seems to have some kind of link towards poker is just simply because of the ability of starcraft players to sit down and try at something for a certain length of time without giving up physically or mentally.
Now there are a lot of people who play a lot of poker, so they're trying physically but give up mentally and just do whatever. The real strong starcraft players have a deeper ability to concentrate mentally on something usually very taxing.
I was going to write more but I'm drunk as fuck and can't remember.
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On September 21 2010 09:55 Half wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 19:51 chinaski.chinaski wrote:
i think connection of starcraft/chess/,insert your fav game> for success in poker is way overstimated Well, success in SC and success in chess aren't incredibly correlated. Some people simple physically cannot become the top players in chess. Chess is basically just working with a supercomplex logic framework that grows in complexity every turn, and whoever messes up first loses. Its a game of complete information and no imperfect executions. The minds of top chess players literally function differently then everyone else. Poker on the other hand, is intuitive. If your smart enough to be pro at Starcraft, you possess the same intuitive skills needed to be good at poker, and likely the discipline as well.
This post is unbelievably dumb. How much chess have you played? Because I've probably played a couple thousand hours, and I couldn't disagree more. A "super-complex logic framework?" What the fuck does that mean? You have to look ahead all of a half dozen moves to be an IM or GM, evaluating a few plausible possibilities at each juncture. The relevant skills are a good memory for openings and endgames, "creativity" to see interesting possibilities, pattern recognition to quickly check potential tactics, and the knowledge and experience to put it together and evaluate positions. Playing chess is not like doing math in your head.
And poker is intuitive? Can you define intuitive? Because humans are notoriously naturally bad at intuitively calculating odds; that's why casinos exist. How is it intuitive to play thousands of hands, watching your good strategy lose to lucky players, before you're statistically likely to win out? Poker is about overriding your biases & intuition and putting your trust in strategy and mathematics for the long run.
That said, I manage to disagree completely with your whole post and then agree with the conclusion. People who are good at games are good at games. If you're disciplined and good at games, you can go play whatever and win; if you don't have a strong preference, you may as well play something like poker that you can actually make real money at.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/4589/idraemotionchart.jpg)
