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The Big Programming Thread - Page 327

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Thread Rules
1. This is not a "do my homework for me" thread. If you have specific questions, ask, but don't post an assignment or homework problem and expect an exact solution.
2. No recruiting for your cockamamie projects (you won't replace facebook with 3 dudes you found on the internet and $20)
3. If you can't articulate why a language is bad, don't start slinging shit about it. Just remember that nothing is worse than making CSS IE6 compatible.
4. Use [code] tags to format code blocks.
tec27
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
United States3727 Posts
July 24 2013 08:52 GMT
#6521
On July 24 2013 17:29 Blisse wrote:
Programmers aren't Product Managers. Product Managers talk with higher-ups and Architects who may or may not communicate with Senior Developers before reaching decisions in what designs/implementation details are used in the product - way before you actually have a project to work on. Assuming you're not in very new start-ups, because for most programmers you'll be joining several years in and hopping right into their chosen language. Programmers rarely make real important implementation decisions unless there's a huge issue and/or oversight found.

Whatever company you work at sounds incredibly dysfunctional and you should seek new employment ASAPly
Can you jam with the console cowboys in cyberspace?
Deleted User 101379
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
4849 Posts
July 24 2013 09:03 GMT
#6522
On July 24 2013 17:11 Arnstein wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 23 2013 15:42 Kiante wrote:
On July 23 2013 14:45 Release wrote:
On July 23 2013 14:21 sluggaslamoo wrote:
On July 23 2013 07:33 Release wrote:
The cool thing about OOP is that you don't have to use it. Completely up to the programmer.

The best thing about OOP imo is readability. 1 line per anything in the main (although sometimes it is better to expand. In theory, you could have 1 line for the entire program)


I think you are confused.

OOP is a paradigm, so if you don't always use Objects in an Object Oriented program, then you aren't doing OOP. Its just structured programming with objects.

I disagree that OOP improves readability, I'd actually argue that functional programming or structured programming styles are better for readability.

What OOP does is create a bridge between business models and code that makes it really easy for both the programmer and analyst to design software.

Ah. Yes. I thought we were talking about OO languages. Disregard my comment.

So you were trying to say that language choice was completely up to the programmer?

Since when? As someone who works as a developer i've never had a choice of languages in any professional project


In what way haven't you had a choice? Like the boss said "Use C, you cunts!" or "Shit, I want to use Python, but since this project have to be super fast, I will have to use C"?


Since you usually work in a team, you have to use the language everyone knows. Since people are hired for their knowledge with the language used in previous projects, it's usually that language that has to be used for future projects as well. If you use any other language, the managers can't just add new manpower to the project from other teams when your project needs it and they later can't just assign other programmers to maintain it when you leave the company.

It's rare that you have a choice in that matter.
Blisse
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Canada3710 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-24 09:22:44
July 24 2013 09:10 GMT
#6523
On July 24 2013 17:52 tec27 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 24 2013 17:29 Blisse wrote:
Programmers aren't Product Managers. Product Managers talk with higher-ups and Architects who may or may not communicate with Senior Developers before reaching decisions in what designs/implementation details are used in the product - way before you actually have a project to work on. Assuming you're not in very new start-ups, because for most programmers you'll be joining several years in and hopping right into their chosen language. Programmers rarely make real important implementation decisions unless there's a huge issue and/or oversight found.

Whatever company you work at sounds incredibly dysfunctional and you should seek new employment ASAPly


idk, he's wondering when do programmers get a say in what they're building. Unless you're building really light one time applications that will need to be refreshed every year or so unless the customer stops paying (and even then), either 1. shit's already there, hop on, 2. you're expanding something that's already existing, or 3. you're going to give advice, but you're not even a senior programmer at the company and you're not a consultant so why would they listen to you? idk what sort of start-uppy hacky new companies you're talking about but i'm pretty sure programmers in enterprise software companies are rarely actually doing real high-level design versus just consulting non-programmers at times... unless their initial consultant was horrible and they had a huge oversight and your way of doing it is better than someone who's paid to find the better way to do it lol

and could you tell me why it's dysfunctional? (i dont work/plan to work there anymore)

also holy shit i'm a mutalisk
There is no one like you in the universe.
Arnstein
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Norway3381 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-24 09:33:11
July 24 2013 09:32 GMT
#6524
Since I don't have much to do this summer, I'm thinking of doing as many of these as I can:
https://github.com/thekarangoel/Projects

I just did the first number one, where you have to find pi to the nth digit, and this was my answer:


#include <iostream>
#include <math.h>
#include <iomanip>

using namespace std;

int main()
{
int n;
cout << "Enter how many digits you want to see: " << endl;
cin >> n;
cout << setprecision(n) << atan(1)*4 << endl;
}


Is this a bad way to do it? Is it cheating in any way? (especially using the setprecision function, which basically does the task for you)
rsol in response to the dragoon voice being heard in SCII: dragoon ai reaches new lows: wanders into wrong game
WolfintheSheep
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada14127 Posts
July 24 2013 09:33 GMT
#6525
On July 24 2013 17:52 tec27 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 24 2013 17:29 Blisse wrote:
Programmers aren't Product Managers. Product Managers talk with higher-ups and Architects who may or may not communicate with Senior Developers before reaching decisions in what designs/implementation details are used in the product - way before you actually have a project to work on. Assuming you're not in very new start-ups, because for most programmers you'll be joining several years in and hopping right into their chosen language. Programmers rarely make real important implementation decisions unless there's a huge issue and/or oversight found.

Whatever company you work at sounds incredibly dysfunctional and you should seek new employment ASAPly

It sounds to me like you don't have much working experience in the field.

Most companies anywhere work like this. Architecture and frameworks are chosen by cost evaluation, programming languages are chosen based on software compatibility or legacy code, and projects are always set before programmers and low-level designers have heard anything except rumours.

And believe me, if you think that's dysfunctional, a company where programmers use whatever they want is several magnitudes worse.
Average means I'm better than half of you.
kollin
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United Kingdom8380 Posts
July 24 2013 09:35 GMT
#6526
On July 24 2013 18:33 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 24 2013 17:52 tec27 wrote:
On July 24 2013 17:29 Blisse wrote:
Programmers aren't Product Managers. Product Managers talk with higher-ups and Architects who may or may not communicate with Senior Developers before reaching decisions in what designs/implementation details are used in the product - way before you actually have a project to work on. Assuming you're not in very new start-ups, because for most programmers you'll be joining several years in and hopping right into their chosen language. Programmers rarely make real important implementation decisions unless there's a huge issue and/or oversight found.

Whatever company you work at sounds incredibly dysfunctional and you should seek new employment ASAPly

It sounds to me like you don't have much working experience in the field.

Most companies anywhere work like this. Architecture and frameworks are chosen by cost evaluation, programming languages are chosen based on software compatibility or legacy code, and projects are always set before programmers and low-level designers have heard anything except rumours.

And believe me, if you think that's dysfunctional, a company where programmers use whatever they want is several magnitudes worse.

Doesn't tec27 work at google?
WolfintheSheep
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada14127 Posts
July 24 2013 09:36 GMT
#6527
On July 24 2013 18:35 kollin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 24 2013 18:33 WolfintheSheep wrote:
On July 24 2013 17:52 tec27 wrote:
On July 24 2013 17:29 Blisse wrote:
Programmers aren't Product Managers. Product Managers talk with higher-ups and Architects who may or may not communicate with Senior Developers before reaching decisions in what designs/implementation details are used in the product - way before you actually have a project to work on. Assuming you're not in very new start-ups, because for most programmers you'll be joining several years in and hopping right into their chosen language. Programmers rarely make real important implementation decisions unless there's a huge issue and/or oversight found.

Whatever company you work at sounds incredibly dysfunctional and you should seek new employment ASAPly

It sounds to me like you don't have much working experience in the field.

Most companies anywhere work like this. Architecture and frameworks are chosen by cost evaluation, programming languages are chosen based on software compatibility or legacy code, and projects are always set before programmers and low-level designers have heard anything except rumours.

And believe me, if you think that's dysfunctional, a company where programmers use whatever they want is several magnitudes worse.

Doesn't tec27 work at google?

Does he? In that case, I'd say he seriously misunderstands what Blisse wrote.
Average means I'm better than half of you.
iaretehnoob
Profile Joined June 2004
Sweden741 Posts
July 24 2013 10:27 GMT
#6528
On July 24 2013 18:32 Arnstein wrote:
Since I don't have much to do this summer, I'm thinking of doing as many of these as I can:
https://github.com/thekarangoel/Projects

I just did the first number one, where you have to find pi to the nth digit, and this was my answer:


#include <iostream>
#include <math.h>
#include <iomanip>

using namespace std;

int main()
{
int n;
cout << "Enter how many digits you want to see: " << endl;
cin >> n;
cout << setprecision(n) << atan(1)*4 << endl;
}


Is this a bad way to do it? Is it cheating in any way? (especially using the setprecision function, which basically does the task for you)

I see two issues:
a) it rounds.
b) try it for n>15 or something.
Arnstein
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Norway3381 Posts
July 24 2013 10:34 GMT
#6529
On July 24 2013 19:27 iaretehnoob wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 24 2013 18:32 Arnstein wrote:
Since I don't have much to do this summer, I'm thinking of doing as many of these as I can:
https://github.com/thekarangoel/Projects

I just did the first number one, where you have to find pi to the nth digit, and this was my answer:


#include <iostream>
#include <math.h>
#include <iomanip>

using namespace std;

int main()
{
int n;
cout << "Enter how many digits you want to see: " << endl;
cin >> n;
cout << setprecision(n) << atan(1)*4 << endl;
}


Is this a bad way to do it? Is it cheating in any way? (especially using the setprecision function, which basically does the task for you)

I see two issues:
a) it rounds.
b) try it for n>15 or something.


Wow, didn't see that before now. How come the 3-4 digits are wrong on n=20? If it rounds I would expect the last one to be wrong, but not the 3-4 last ones.
rsol in response to the dragoon voice being heard in SCII: dragoon ai reaches new lows: wanders into wrong game
Deleted User 101379
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
4849 Posts
July 24 2013 10:37 GMT
#6530
On July 24 2013 19:34 Arnstein wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 24 2013 19:27 iaretehnoob wrote:
On July 24 2013 18:32 Arnstein wrote:
Since I don't have much to do this summer, I'm thinking of doing as many of these as I can:
https://github.com/thekarangoel/Projects

I just did the first number one, where you have to find pi to the nth digit, and this was my answer:


#include <iostream>
#include <math.h>
#include <iomanip>

using namespace std;

int main()
{
int n;
cout << "Enter how many digits you want to see: " << endl;
cin >> n;
cout << setprecision(n) << atan(1)*4 << endl;
}


Is this a bad way to do it? Is it cheating in any way? (especially using the setprecision function, which basically does the task for you)

I see two issues:
a) it rounds.
b) try it for n>15 or something.


Wow, didn't see that before now. How come the 3-4 digits are wrong on n=20? If it rounds I would expect the last one to be wrong, but not the 3-4 last ones.


Floating point numbers have limited precision, they don't work for these cases.
Arnstein
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Norway3381 Posts
July 24 2013 10:54 GMT
#6531
On July 24 2013 19:37 Morfildur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 24 2013 19:34 Arnstein wrote:
On July 24 2013 19:27 iaretehnoob wrote:
On July 24 2013 18:32 Arnstein wrote:
Since I don't have much to do this summer, I'm thinking of doing as many of these as I can:
https://github.com/thekarangoel/Projects

I just did the first number one, where you have to find pi to the nth digit, and this was my answer:


#include <iostream>
#include <math.h>
#include <iomanip>

using namespace std;

int main()
{
int n;
cout << "Enter how many digits you want to see: " << endl;
cin >> n;
cout << setprecision(n) << atan(1)*4 << endl;
}


Is this a bad way to do it? Is it cheating in any way? (especially using the setprecision function, which basically does the task for you)

I see two issues:
a) it rounds.
b) try it for n>15 or something.


Wow, didn't see that before now. How come the 3-4 digits are wrong on n=20? If it rounds I would expect the last one to be wrong, but not the 3-4 last ones.


Floating point numbers have limited precision, they don't work for these cases.


Okay, I guess I will find a new way then
rsol in response to the dragoon voice being heard in SCII: dragoon ai reaches new lows: wanders into wrong game
zeru
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
8156 Posts
July 24 2013 12:27 GMT
#6532
--- Nuked ---
WolfintheSheep
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada14127 Posts
July 24 2013 17:05 GMT
#6533
On July 24 2013 21:27 zeru wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 24 2013 18:33 WolfintheSheep wrote:
On July 24 2013 17:52 tec27 wrote:
On July 24 2013 17:29 Blisse wrote:
Programmers aren't Product Managers. Product Managers talk with higher-ups and Architects who may or may not communicate with Senior Developers before reaching decisions in what designs/implementation details are used in the product - way before you actually have a project to work on. Assuming you're not in very new start-ups, because for most programmers you'll be joining several years in and hopping right into their chosen language. Programmers rarely make real important implementation decisions unless there's a huge issue and/or oversight found.

Whatever company you work at sounds incredibly dysfunctional and you should seek new employment ASAPly

It sounds to me like you don't have much working experience in the field.

Most companies anywhere work like this. Architecture and frameworks are chosen by cost evaluation, programming languages are chosen based on software compatibility or legacy code, and projects are always set before programmers and low-level designers have heard anything except rumours.

And believe me, if you think that's dysfunctional, a company where programmers use whatever they want is several magnitudes worse.

I work at a smaller company where the main dev(s) of a project work quite together with the architect/designer in some parts of their job, such as the subjects of deciding framework, language, compatibility with legacy/future systems. There obviously has to be a logical argument for using or not using thing X. Using several languages for different products and services, and having the people who are going to write it be part of decision making doesn't sound too strange.

Letting programmers choose themselves would likely not end well, like you said.

Well, in smaller companies you basically end up being part of the management, whether you job description says so or not...that's just part of being in a smaller company. I've worked at a company with only 7 people, and we had weekly meetings that involved literally everyone in every project (even if they weren't directly working on it).
Average means I'm better than half of you.
tec27
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
United States3727 Posts
July 24 2013 17:11 GMT
#6534
On July 24 2013 18:33 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 24 2013 17:52 tec27 wrote:
On July 24 2013 17:29 Blisse wrote:
Programmers aren't Product Managers. Product Managers talk with higher-ups and Architects who may or may not communicate with Senior Developers before reaching decisions in what designs/implementation details are used in the product - way before you actually have a project to work on. Assuming you're not in very new start-ups, because for most programmers you'll be joining several years in and hopping right into their chosen language. Programmers rarely make real important implementation decisions unless there's a huge issue and/or oversight found.

Whatever company you work at sounds incredibly dysfunctional and you should seek new employment ASAPly

It sounds to me like you don't have much working experience in the field.

Most companies anywhere work like this. Architecture and frameworks are chosen by cost evaluation, programming languages are chosen based on software compatibility or legacy code, and projects are always set before programmers and low-level designers have heard anything except rumours.

And believe me, if you think that's dysfunctional, a company where programmers use whatever they want is several magnitudes worse.

So you think a company where PM's are deciding what technology you'll use and "Solution Architects" (who are clearly, in his example, *not* anyone actually touching the code) are making decisions from on high which you have no actual say in makes for a good place to work? I'm not trying to insult the company, I'm just trying to give advice. If you work at a place that does that, they're treating you like shit and you can do better. If you want to be treated like shit, then have at it
Can you jam with the console cowboys in cyberspace?
WolfintheSheep
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada14127 Posts
July 24 2013 17:43 GMT
#6535
On July 25 2013 02:11 tec27 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 24 2013 18:33 WolfintheSheep wrote:
On July 24 2013 17:52 tec27 wrote:
On July 24 2013 17:29 Blisse wrote:
Programmers aren't Product Managers. Product Managers talk with higher-ups and Architects who may or may not communicate with Senior Developers before reaching decisions in what designs/implementation details are used in the product - way before you actually have a project to work on. Assuming you're not in very new start-ups, because for most programmers you'll be joining several years in and hopping right into their chosen language. Programmers rarely make real important implementation decisions unless there's a huge issue and/or oversight found.

Whatever company you work at sounds incredibly dysfunctional and you should seek new employment ASAPly

It sounds to me like you don't have much working experience in the field.

Most companies anywhere work like this. Architecture and frameworks are chosen by cost evaluation, programming languages are chosen based on software compatibility or legacy code, and projects are always set before programmers and low-level designers have heard anything except rumours.

And believe me, if you think that's dysfunctional, a company where programmers use whatever they want is several magnitudes worse.

So you think a company where PM's are deciding what technology you'll use and "Solution Architects" (who are clearly, in his example, *not* anyone actually touching the code) are making decisions from on high which you have no actual say in makes for a good place to work? I'm not trying to insult the company, I'm just trying to give advice. If you work at a place that does that, they're treating you like shit and you can do better. If you want to be treated like shit, then have at it

Once again, I think you have a very idealistic (and very dysfunctional) idea of how a company should operate.

If I were to compose a list of priorities for selecting a language for a project, programmer preference ranks somewhere at the very bottom. I cannot think of a single circumstance where "I like Python" would ever override concerns like client requirements, compatibility, co-worker skillsets, support and maintainability, etc.
Average means I'm better than half of you.
tec27
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
United States3727 Posts
July 24 2013 17:55 GMT
#6536
Decent programmers are not going to say "I like python" and think that's a good reason for choosing it for a project. If your company doesn't trust you to be able to pick the right tool for the job, they think you're a moron and unless you actually believe you are a moron, you should find a new job. Its really not that difficult.

There are plenty of companies that will treat you like shit, I'm not arguing that they don't exist. I'm just saying that if you have any self-respect and desire to actually work effectively, you shouldn't work for them.
Can you jam with the console cowboys in cyberspace?
RoyGBiv_13
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States1275 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-24 18:31:24
July 24 2013 18:03 GMT
#6537
On July 25 2013 02:55 tec27 wrote:
Decent programmers are not going to say "I like python" and think that's a good reason for choosing it for a project. If your company doesn't trust you to be able to pick the right tool for the job, they think you're a moron and unless you actually believe you are a moron, you should find a new job. Its really not that difficult.

There are plenty of companies that will treat you like shit, I'm not arguing that they don't exist. I'm just saying that if you have any self-respect and desire to actually work effectively, you shouldn't work for them.


+1
Programming is a creative profession. There's a ton of research on how to get the highest quality production out of a programmer. Agile methodologies have a pretty good track record of generating top notch code, while waterfall design is arguably the worst thing to happen to programming since PHP (har har har).


+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]
http://me.veekun.com/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/+ Show Spoiler +

"Part of what makes a good developer is the ability to choose the tools that work best."
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic
Millitron
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States2611 Posts
July 24 2013 18:13 GMT
#6538
On July 24 2013 18:10 Blisse wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 24 2013 17:52 tec27 wrote:
On July 24 2013 17:29 Blisse wrote:
Programmers aren't Product Managers. Product Managers talk with higher-ups and Architects who may or may not communicate with Senior Developers before reaching decisions in what designs/implementation details are used in the product - way before you actually have a project to work on. Assuming you're not in very new start-ups, because for most programmers you'll be joining several years in and hopping right into their chosen language. Programmers rarely make real important implementation decisions unless there's a huge issue and/or oversight found.

Whatever company you work at sounds incredibly dysfunctional and you should seek new employment ASAPly


idk, he's wondering when do programmers get a say in what they're building. Unless you're building really light one time applications that will need to be refreshed every year or so unless the customer stops paying (and even then), either 1. shit's already there, hop on, 2. you're expanding something that's already existing, or 3. you're going to give advice, but you're not even a senior programmer at the company and you're not a consultant so why would they listen to you? idk what sort of start-uppy hacky new companies you're talking about but i'm pretty sure programmers in enterprise software companies are rarely actually doing real high-level design versus just consulting non-programmers at times... unless their initial consultant was horrible and they had a huge oversight and your way of doing it is better than someone who's paid to find the better way to do it lol

and could you tell me why it's dysfunctional? (i dont work/plan to work there anymore)

also holy shit i'm a mutalisk

Well even low-ranked programmers will likely take some part in the design meetings. I mean, basically every CS degree teaches UML diagramming for a reason, right?
Who called in the fleet?
Denar
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
France1633 Posts
July 24 2013 18:15 GMT
#6539
This thread has one of the worst atmospheres in all TL, a lot of agressive tone, dick-waving, and other never-ending battles over trivial matters.

Do you guys think this is specific to the people interacting in here, or if it is a general character aspect of the programmer to be unable to exchange in a more civilised manner ?
RoyGBiv_13
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States1275 Posts
July 24 2013 18:20 GMT
#6540
On July 25 2013 03:15 Denar wrote:
This thread has one of the worst atmospheres in all TL, a lot of agressive tone, dick-waving, and other never-ending battles over trivial matters.

Do you guys think this is specific to the people interacting in here, or if it is a general character aspect of the programmer to be unable to exchange in a more civilised manner ?


Honestly, most programming debates I have been in have been around the same tone. I don't see the "dick-waving", but the aggression and never ending battles over trivial matters is a result of of what makes us good at what we do. It's obsessive attention to detail combined with people who are traditionally not good at "people". Following this thread, you will probably find plenty of stubborn people butting heads of minute details of individual programming languages, but you'll also find a lot of strong, experienced based points that carry a wealth of knowledge. It's how you approach the conversation that matters what you get out it. If you're looking for drama, you'll find it here.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic
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