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Ok, this thread has gotten pretty off track and I admit I haven't been helping much either. I'm still quite curious to know what the overall opinion of TL regarding issues that have arisen repeatedly throughout the thread.
I'm going to ask some very (seemingly) obvious questions so that we can all agree on some points.
Please tell me if I word the questions incorrectly/inappropriately and feel free to make your own counter-poll.
You don't need to provide reasoning for your answer as you'd probably end up repeating what someone else already said in previous posts.
Under given circumstances (the heat of battle, stress, etc.)
Poll: Was shooting the courtyard people the correct course of action? Were they a threat?
(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): Not sure / Can't say
Poll: Was shooting the van the correct course of action? Were they a threat?
(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): Not sure / Can't say
Poll: Was demolishing the occupied building correct? Were they a threat?
(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): Not sure / Can't say
Poll: Under the given circumstances, could the incident have ended better? (With less casualties?)
(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): Not sure / Can't say
Poll: Were the soldier's reactions and remarks to their actions appropriate?
(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): Not sure / Can't say
Poll: Should situations like this be prevented from happening in the future?
(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): Not sure / Can't say
Poll: Do you think it is alright that people die in wars?
(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): Not sure / Can't say
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+ Show Spoiler +Another thing I've been wondering, from looking at other related videos on youtube... is there not an option in RoE for capturing rather than killing disabled targets? How about blockade the van with the armored division? And if supporting troops and 'friendlies' were nearby, why not use the overwhelming firepower to intimidate and force surrender rather than to overkill? (see DreamShake's post if you don't believe American troops were right around the corner) I thought the whole reasoning for the development of "smart weapons" and advanced aiming/recognition systems was to reduce the amount of unnecessary casualties during battle. It's more like a single burst of gunfire would be enough to disable everyone and any additional firepower would only be to kill. On April 07 2010 09:36 dNo_O wrote:
over 20,000 people starve to death everyday. it's not a tragedy that 8 died prematurely from being somewhere they knew it was risky to be. World hunger is an issue, yes, but justifying "people get shot everyday" with "people starve everyday" is ridiculous. Just because one is wrong doesn't make the other less wrong. How about Over 20,000 people starve to death everyday. It's not a tragedy that about 115 people die every day in vehicle crashes in the United States. Is that any less wrong? From reading DreamShake's post, I agree that the journalists shouldn't be there and it was their fault. Journalists get the best photos from being "right there". But being "right there" means you are gambling with your life. That day they lost the gamble.
My comments aren't impartial but I hope the poll is...
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In war European soldiers would never do misstakes or make biased conclutions just to be extra safe. In fact that Europeans number one goal in war is to make sure that they don't commit any warcrimes. Europeans are just that morally superior than Americans. There are multiple examples through out history that reinforce this fact.
Every European mother also teaches her child that every human life is priceless. We know this is true based on naivety and morals alone. It's not like we see proof of the contrary... like everyday.
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The soldiers, in retrospect, obviously made the wrong choice.
The fact they are "flippant" about it doesn't mean a fucking thing to me. I for one don't want soldiers fighting that feel "sorry" for the enemy. You probably can't even count how many times they have had situations like this where the people WERE in fact the "bad guys."
This is a PR nightmare for the military tho.
Edit: To the person above me... either you are a troll or a fucking idiot.
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Well using an edited video makes perfect sense... not sure what are you seeing? Here, let the arrow with text help you. Those pilots are bliiind how could they mistook that?
Even if 1 of 11 that were killed had a weapon, other 3 with 2AKs and 1RPG can be seen.
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United States22883 Posts
On April 08 2010 01:04 Tjuba wrote:
In war European soldiers whould never do misstakes or make biased conclutions just to be extra safe. In fact that Europeans number one goal in war is to make sure that they don't commit any warcrimes. Europeans are just that morally superior than Americans. There are multiple examples through out history that reinforce this fact.
Every European mother also teaches her child that every human life is priceless. We know this is true based on naivety and morals alone. It's not like we see proof of the contrary... like everyday.
Yeah, like the "war" in the former Yugoslavia where not a single Frenchman, German or Swede took a life.
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On April 08 2010 01:11 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2010 01:04 Tjuba wrote:
In war European soldiers whould never do misstakes or make biased conclutions just to be extra safe. In fact that Europeans number one goal in war is to make sure that they don't commit any warcrimes. Europeans are just that morally superior than Americans. There are multiple examples through out history that reinforce this fact.
Every European mother also teaches her child that every human life is priceless. We know this is true based on naivety and morals alone. It's not like we see proof of the contrary... like everyday. Yeah, like the war in the former Yugoslavia where not a single Frenchman, German or Swede took a life.
He was being sarcastic.
I hope.
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On April 08 2010 01:04 Tjuba wrote:
In war European soldiers would never do misstakes or make biased conclutions just to be extra safe. In fact that Europeans number one goal in war is to make sure that they don't commit any warcrimes. Europeans are just that morally superior than Americans. There are multiple examples through out history that reinforce this fact.
Every European mother also teaches her child that every human life is priceless. We know this is true based on naivety and morals alone. It's not like we see proof of the contrary... like everyday.
AFAIK in former Yogoslavia 10 000 people were slaughtered during just 1 night only because forces that were supposed to bring peace there were ordered to care about their safety only.
Maybe troll elsewhere?
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I agree that the soldiers were just doing their jobs, they did not break any rules. In other words, these incidents are nothing but unusual, which makes the whole thing more tragic.
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On April 08 2010 01:27 KissBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2010 01:11 Jibba wrote:On April 08 2010 01:04 Tjuba wrote:
In war European soldiers whould never do misstakes or make biased conclutions just to be extra safe. In fact that Europeans number one goal in war is to make sure that they don't commit any warcrimes. Europeans are just that morally superior than Americans. There are multiple examples through out history that reinforce this fact.
Every European mother also teaches her child that every human life is priceless. We know this is true based on naivety and morals alone. It's not like we see proof of the contrary... like everyday. Yeah, like the war in the former Yugoslavia where not a single Frenchman, German or Swede took a life. He was being sarcastic. I hope.
I hope that too.
... but it seems like people believe I am trolling.
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United States22883 Posts
What actually did it was the typos. When I see typos and vitriol, I immediately think of baal and he would definitely write and believe something like that.
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On April 07 2010 11:03 dNo_O wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2010 09:54 [Crimson]Bason wrote:On April 07 2010 09:36 dNo_O wrote:
oh no some journalists died. that's a risk they chose to take going to iraq. over 20,000 people starve to death everyday. it's not a tragedy that 8 died prematurely from being somewhere they knew it was risky to be.
THIS IS UNWARRANTED OUTRAGE! SOMEONE NEEDS TO PUT A STOP TO OUTRAGING OVER THINGS THAT AREN'T OUTRAGEOUS! This is the kind of post that makes me disgusted. Some people here in US dont care about peoples lives that arent american! Just 8 innocent people died in this incident OH NO! Big deal what if some of those 8 people were your family members would you make a big deal? What if other people say the same to you when your family members died in an incident? American lives worth more? on what scale are you measuring? By the way over 1 million iraqis have died since the beginning of the invasion how many US soldiers died? a couple thousands... this is the kind of things they dont usually report! These kinds of incidents need to be brought into daylight! The new media in the US make such a fuss about couple US soldiers being killed every so often but they dont even report the millions of iraqis that have died... and people are crying propaganda and brainwashing without knowing that they themselves are bring brainwashed. stupid is as stupid dies. a couple thousands? and here we have a grand total of 129 journalists. so what are you crying about? if my family died in a nononcoms zone and this was video of it i'd be sad, but i'd also feel like they were kinda asking for it. i don't care what nationality these lives were either. do you not see what i said about over 20,000 people starving to death everyday? the fact that 8 reporters died is not an outrage. especially when they died the way they did: doing something they knew was life-threatening. uhh... that the iraqi death toll has been over a million and that the us death toll is nearing 4.5k is the ONLY THING THE NEWS REPORTS. do you actually watch, or read the news? it's looks like a footnote on A8 or on the cnn ticker. they've been reporting that for over a year. 'these kinds of incidents'? really? because 1 reporter has died for every 45 americans? if you want to talk value of life, in the world it'd be impossible for you to win that argument too. the cost of life in most of the world is cheap. it's a lot pricier in america to raise a child and put it through school than any other country. the chances that an american citizen has a much better education than anyone who isn't from a western european country is a pretty safe bet as well. what scale are you measuring? if you want to talk $ value of a life: according to syracuse, american children cost about $300,000 each. http://www.syracuse.com/today/index.ssf/2009/08/raising_a_child_in_the_united.html
.................wow
youre banned so you cant reply to me but lol are you serious, talking about the value of life IN FUCKING DOLLARS?!
My god you must be the dumbest most pathetic being on this entire planet
edit: Oh, ok turns out that part was the exact reason you got banned,
shoulda been longer imo...maybe if manifesto gets to read that
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On April 07 2010 09:12 DreamShake wrote:
Quoting because I haven't seen anyone acknowledge this. How can you possibly think the first attack is unjustified after seeing this picture?
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On April 08 2010 02:22 7mk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2010 11:03 dNo_O wrote:On April 07 2010 09:54 [Crimson]Bason wrote:On April 07 2010 09:36 dNo_O wrote:
oh no some journalists died. that's a risk they chose to take going to iraq. over 20,000 people starve to death everyday. it's not a tragedy that 8 died prematurely from being somewhere they knew it was risky to be.
THIS IS UNWARRANTED OUTRAGE! SOMEONE NEEDS TO PUT A STOP TO OUTRAGING OVER THINGS THAT AREN'T OUTRAGEOUS! This is the kind of post that makes me disgusted. Some people here in US dont care about peoples lives that arent american! Just 8 innocent people died in this incident OH NO! Big deal what if some of those 8 people were your family members would you make a big deal? What if other people say the same to you when your family members died in an incident? American lives worth more? on what scale are you measuring? By the way over 1 million iraqis have died since the beginning of the invasion how many US soldiers died? a couple thousands... this is the kind of things they dont usually report! These kinds of incidents need to be brought into daylight! The new media in the US make such a fuss about couple US soldiers being killed every so often but they dont even report the millions of iraqis that have died... and people are crying propaganda and brainwashing without knowing that they themselves are bring brainwashed. stupid is as stupid dies. a couple thousands? and here we have a grand total of 129 journalists. so what are you crying about? if my family died in a nononcoms zone and this was video of it i'd be sad, but i'd also feel like they were kinda asking for it. i don't care what nationality these lives were either. do you not see what i said about over 20,000 people starving to death everyday? the fact that 8 reporters died is not an outrage. especially when they died the way they did: doing something they knew was life-threatening. uhh... that the iraqi death toll has been over a million and that the us death toll is nearing 4.5k is the ONLY THING THE NEWS REPORTS. do you actually watch, or read the news? it's looks like a footnote on A8 or on the cnn ticker. they've been reporting that for over a year. 'these kinds of incidents'? really? because 1 reporter has died for every 45 americans? if you want to talk value of life, in the world it'd be impossible for you to win that argument too. the cost of life in most of the world is cheap. it's a lot pricier in america to raise a child and put it through school than any other country. the chances that an american citizen has a much better education than anyone who isn't from a western european country is a pretty safe bet as well. what scale are you measuring? if you want to talk $ value of a life: according to syracuse, american children cost about $300,000 each. http://www.syracuse.com/today/index.ssf/2009/08/raising_a_child_in_the_united.html .................wow youre banned so you cant reply to me but lol are you serious, talking about the value of life IN FUCKING DOLLARS?! My god you must be the dumbest most pathetic being on this entire planet edit: Oh, ok turns out that part was the exact reason you got banned, shoulda been longer imo.
This is the kind of people we put behind the most sophisticated weapon on earth. Figure whats gonna happen... This is the mentallity I am disgusted about... Not because of misidentification or just because of this video alone. After the release of this video many condemned the US and the soldiers but what it brought out was also a large number of people defending the soldiers and having that mentality about the worth of american life compared to iraqis. Many people here dont care if they are innocent or not as long as they are dead they cant harm us right? I am very ashamed and disgusted because of this.
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Well its no surprise, war is ugly
The moment the US decided to do this hugeas military campaign in the middle east I was sure thousands of innocents would die.
Sad ? yep
Could be avoided ? probably, the same way you could have avoided invading iraq because of wmds
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My impression from the video was not that the troops did not break any of their rules or orders; they seem to be routinely following their training. Their attitude towards their targets does not strike me as sick or unusual. When you have to kill people in this manner, you become much more likely to feel it is right and enjoy it. That's just how cognitive dissonance works. If you have to torture people you're going to be more likely to believe they were bad guys--the mechanism is the same. So I'm not shocked about that.
But the very fact that I believe this to be routine and by the book is what makes it so unsettling. I would concede that the group of guys looks like they might have RPGs (or cameras) and some of them have AK47s. They are peacefully walking around. As most of you know, every family in Iraq, before the war, would likely have an AK47 in their home. If you were walking around a war zone, would you do it unarmed? So the AK47s make sense to me. Maybe it's a group of terrorists casually walking around--but it could be any other Iraqis as well. Do the Iraqis know that walking outside with anything resembling a gun is going to get them killed? If not, then this is a bit unfair.
Now the RPGs. Journalists go to Iraq. They have cameras. Do they know that having cameras will get them shot? Especially if anyone around them has a rifle or anything resembling it?
Are these two journalists palling around with terrorists? Or are they idiots who don't realize that they are going to get shot by having cameras and people with things that look like weapons (maybe are weapons)? Unless they are ignoring warnings, it seems unfair for them to be killed this way.
It seems unfair that anyone who looks like they might be armed or might have an RPG will be picked off in this way. This is clearly not "battle" or "self defense." At best, it's something like sniping--but if you snipe some guys who are eating breakfast, walking around, or whatever, and it turns out they weren't the enemy, then that's on you. You can't just say "well it was possible they were the enemy." That's no excuse for assassinating the wrong people.
And the van makes no sense. You can't just shoot any vehicle that drives up and wants to carry away wounded. This is a city--not trench warfare. These people live in this city or they're walking around. They aren't necessarily "combatants" and you can't just shoot everyone who isn't on your side--which seems to be the protocol they were so casually following here. The video disturbs me because I imagine this kind of action is routine and attention has only been called to this case because there were two journalists involved.
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The moment we decided to screw up every single thing possible and have no real post invasion plan is what caused this. If anyone knows the story, the postwar transition was completely mishandled and screwed up. It took a long time after the initial invasion for the insurgency to pick up. Mainly because of how shoddily the transition was handled by America. Great at invading, terrible at nation building.
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On April 08 2010 02:28 [Crimson]Bason wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2010 02:22 7mk wrote:On April 07 2010 11:03 dNo_O wrote:On April 07 2010 09:54 [Crimson]Bason wrote:On April 07 2010 09:36 dNo_O wrote:
oh no some journalists died. that's a risk they chose to take going to iraq. over 20,000 people starve to death everyday. it's not a tragedy that 8 died prematurely from being somewhere they knew it was risky to be.
THIS IS UNWARRANTED OUTRAGE! SOMEONE NEEDS TO PUT A STOP TO OUTRAGING OVER THINGS THAT AREN'T OUTRAGEOUS! This is the kind of post that makes me disgusted. Some people here in US dont care about peoples lives that arent american! Just 8 innocent people died in this incident OH NO! Big deal what if some of those 8 people were your family members would you make a big deal? What if other people say the same to you when your family members died in an incident? American lives worth more? on what scale are you measuring? By the way over 1 million iraqis have died since the beginning of the invasion how many US soldiers died? a couple thousands... this is the kind of things they dont usually report! These kinds of incidents need to be brought into daylight! The new media in the US make such a fuss about couple US soldiers being killed every so often but they dont even report the millions of iraqis that have died... and people are crying propaganda and brainwashing without knowing that they themselves are bring brainwashed. stupid is as stupid dies. a couple thousands? and here we have a grand total of 129 journalists. so what are you crying about? if my family died in a nononcoms zone and this was video of it i'd be sad, but i'd also feel like they were kinda asking for it. i don't care what nationality these lives were either. do you not see what i said about over 20,000 people starving to death everyday? the fact that 8 reporters died is not an outrage. especially when they died the way they did: doing something they knew was life-threatening. uhh... that the iraqi death toll has been over a million and that the us death toll is nearing 4.5k is the ONLY THING THE NEWS REPORTS. do you actually watch, or read the news? it's looks like a footnote on A8 or on the cnn ticker. they've been reporting that for over a year. 'these kinds of incidents'? really? because 1 reporter has died for every 45 americans? if you want to talk value of life, in the world it'd be impossible for you to win that argument too. the cost of life in most of the world is cheap. it's a lot pricier in america to raise a child and put it through school than any other country. the chances that an american citizen has a much better education than anyone who isn't from a western european country is a pretty safe bet as well. what scale are you measuring? if you want to talk $ value of a life: according to syracuse, american children cost about $300,000 each. http://www.syracuse.com/today/index.ssf/2009/08/raising_a_child_in_the_united.html .................wow youre banned so you cant reply to me but lol are you serious, talking about the value of life IN FUCKING DOLLARS?! My god you must be the dumbest most pathetic being on this entire planet edit: Oh, ok turns out that part was the exact reason you got banned, shoulda been longer imo. This is the kind of people we put behind the most sophisticated weapon on earth. Figure whats gonna happen... This is the mentallity I am disgusted about... Not because of misidentification or just because of this video alone. After the release of this video many condemned the US and the soldiers but what it brought out was also a large number of people defending the soldiers and having that mentality about the worth of american life compared to iraqis. Many people here dont care if they are innocent or not as long as they are dead they cant harm us right? I am very ashamed and disgusted because of this.
The thing is, we need this type of person behind the gun. Whoever sits behind that gun is going to be killing a lot of people. And of course the military values the lives of their soldiers far more than the lives of the civilians on the other side, so they want them to shoot even in uncertain cases. Whoever is behind the gun is probably going to kill at least a few innocent people.
It takes a certain type of person to be willing to do that. I know that I, for one, couldn't deal with having their deaths on my hands. I'd even be uncomfortable with shooting enemy soldiers - after all, they're not all that different from civilians, or me; they just happen to be pointing a gun in my direction. You can talk about self-defense, but it's still hard. If we were born in the same country, we could have been friends.
The thing is, I'm fine with killing soldiers and innocents in a video game. Just not in real life. But the military needs people who CAN treat it like a video game, which is why it sounds like they don't respect the lives of those they're killing. They DON'T. That's why the military put them behind the gun.
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On April 08 2010 01:58 Jibba wrote:
What actually did it was the typos. When I see typos and vitriol, I immediately think of baal and he would definitely write and believe something like that.
A couple of minutes ago I thought typos were annoying but now I think typos are great! They seem to give that extra flair of innocence. Thank you.
Not to derail the thread too much, I ask you guys something semi relative.
Is the value of life objective or subjective?
If Objective, how much?
If Sujective how would you messure it?
I am mostly curious on you who claim life is priceless (all life is equal), and If you could think yourself in a situation were that would not be true.
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8748 Posts
On April 08 2010 01:04 Tjuba wrote:
In war European soldiers would never do misstakes or make biased conclutions just to be extra safe. In fact that Europeans number one goal in war is to make sure that they don't commit any warcrimes. Europeans are just that morally superior than Americans. There are multiple examples through out history that reinforce this fact.
Every European mother also teaches her child that every human life is priceless. We know this is true based on naivety and morals alone. It's not like we see proof of the contrary... like everyday.
WWII? Is that too long ago?
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EPT![[image loading]](http://duckbar.mirror.waffleimages.com/files/c7/c76f1e685afea0b6172abd701e69a42d890d2bd5.jpg)
