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On January 11 2010 15:44 FieryBalrog wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2010 11:42 pubbanana wrote:
LOL at the atheists and science-worshippers. Sure, if we eliminate all religion we can get rid of all that's wrong in the world. Oh wait, I forgot that Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Castro, etc. were all devout worshippers of God who didn't massacre innocent members of religious minorities.
Nothing those people did was in the name of atheism. One has to be a little more sophisticated than that in addressing the issue. In particular, the idea of God being dead, of the complete freedom afforded by the lack of any foundational morality, the idea that humans were vessels to be molded by man, and not inherently endowed with rights and duties by a Creator; these were distinctly made possible by atheist belief systems such as communism. In such belief systems, humans had no instrinsic worth (why should they? The idea that humans have intrinsic worth comes via religion) and were acceptable sacrifices for the State (ultimately, both Hitler and Lenin met by way of Hegel; the State was supreme). Whatever the faults of religion, of which there are many, its impossible to deny that we arrived at the ideas of the sacred inviolability of the individual, the inherent human rights afforded to us all, by way of religion. That's simply how those ideas were arrived at. The idea of all men being equal and guaranteed certain freedoms comes through religion. Any atheist not living in denial (including myself) needs to come to grips with that.
I strongly disagree with every single sentence you typed.
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On January 11 2010 16:55 pubbanana wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2010 15:44 FieryBalrog wrote:On January 10 2010 11:42 pubbanana wrote:
LOL at the atheists and science-worshippers. Sure, if we eliminate all religion we can get rid of all that's wrong in the world. Oh wait, I forgot that Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Castro, etc. were all devout worshippers of God who didn't massacre innocent members of religious minorities.
Nothing those people did was in the name of atheism. One has to be a little more sophisticated than that in addressing the issue. In particular, the idea of God being dead, of the complete freedom afforded by the lack of any foundational morality, the idea that humans were vessels to be molded by man, and not inherently endowed with rights and duties by a Creator; these were distinctly made possible by atheist belief systems such as communism. In such belief systems, humans had no instrinsic worth (why should they? The idea that humans have intrinsic worth comes via religion) and were acceptable sacrifices for the State (ultimately, both Hitler and Lenin met by way of Hegel; the State was supreme). Whatever the faults of religion, of which there are many, its impossible to deny that we arrived at the ideas of the sacred inviolability of the individual, the inherent human rights afforded to us all, by way of religion. That's simply how those ideas were arrived at. The idea of all men being equal and guaranteed certain freedoms comes through religion. Any atheist not living in denial (including myself) needs to come to grips with that. I strongly disagree with every single sentence you typed.
OK cool
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On January 11 2010 12:22 daz wrote:
Serbian nationalism had nothing to do with religion. You have to understand how Yugoslavia worked to understand the source of the Serbian nationalism. It stemmed mostly from the fact that Serbia was always the most powerful nation and then centre of Yugoslavia, and in order to keep Yugoslavia together Serbia had to forgo its own national interests for the interests of the other states and for Yugoslavia as a whole. After Tito died, a lot of Serbians started to resent this, since Tito was basically holding the country together. Milosevic came along and he basically ran on a platform of "hey we're the most powerful country why should we have to let everyone else have their way, we should start promoting our own interests". Of course Serbian people loved it so he was hugely popular. This rise in Serbian nationalism combined with the rise in nationalism of all the other states and the United States denying Yugoslavia trade credits and then offering economic aid to states that declared independence is was led to the breakup. After this basically everyone was at each others throats. And i wouldn't mind discussing what the Serbian military was doing in 93 and 94 if you wouldn't mind discussing what Bosnian Muslmis were doing to Bosnian Serbs before the military got there. Or what the Croation miliatry was doing at the same time. OR maybe you'd like to discuss what the American military was doing a few years later
rofl?
1. 8% + of Croatian GDP during Yugoslavia was going to Serbia (yeah all that money going out of Serbia to the other nations...).
2. A disproportional amount of government positions were held by Serbians (yeah damn that equality... hell you can even look at the voting system used where Serbia practically had 3 votes rather than 1 (Vojvodina, Kosovo and Serbia) most the time even 4 when bullying Montenegro.
3. I agree that Serbia were most probably the most powerful. They had the largest population, amount of people in the army, positions in government but they were not the most industrialised (Slovenia was).
4. Yugoslavia before they broke up was taking aid from America (Tito was hilarious when he didn't get what he wanted from America he would go to Russia and vice-versa).
5. I ain't even going to go in to the bag of worms which is the blame game to who killed who, who killed how many cause when it comes down to it both Croatia and Serbia are to blame for genocide etc.
But this is all off topic, I would agree with you though that nationalism was the main problem in Serbia / Croatia and for all the crap that happened but you cannot ignore that the nationalists used religion to rally the base.
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United States22883 Posts
On January 11 2010 12:22 daz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2010 11:30 Jibba wrote:On January 11 2010 10:29 daz wrote:On January 10 2010 20:43 Jibba wrote:On January 10 2010 11:14 Savant wrote:On January 10 2010 10:46 daz wrote:On January 10 2010 10:27 Savant wrote:On January 10 2010 02:52 MannerMan wrote:
It is very sad that so many can be moved so strongly by religion.
I hope one day they can see the beautiful truths behind our existence instead of the lies and tyranny of those who oppress them with fear. LOL at the atheists and science-worshippers. Sure, if we eliminate all religion we can get rid of all that's wrong in the world. Oh wait, I forgot that Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Castro, etc. were all devout worshippers of God who didn't massacre innocent members of religious minorities. And certainly the innumerable humanitarian programs fueled by religious belief would certainly continue if everyone came to their senses and became atheist (hint: look at China for this dream state). Let's not forget that Eugenics was a direct result of scientific, not religious, ideas. Let's face it people, looking at history being inhuman is the natural state of humanity, and just because people manipulate religion (along with everything else) to justify their greed, bigotry, or racism doesn't make religion the villain. If anything, religion provides a check to some of these tendencies: without religion Hitler, Mao, etc. could still exist, but Mother Teresa could not. If you're atheist fine, but don't go calling people who differ with your OPINION ignorant mislead retards because that's just announcing that you're an ignorant mislead retard, and puts you on the same level as that Muslim/Christian/Hindu who right now is calling you an ignorant mislead retard. Believe it or not, there is a way to rationally discuss sensitive issues like this without resorting to name calling and displays of your intellectual bigotry. Thank you very much. There's no way for YOU to rationally discuss them because you're not capable of rational thinking. I'm an applied physics major at Cornell with a 3.8 GPA. I think I'm entitled to be considered at least a somewhat rational human being. And no, I'm not denying that religion can be bad as well as good. I'm just calling out the idiots who make religion the scapegoat for all that is wrong with the world. My personal opinion on the matter is that the people involved should be tried and punished as criminals. I also think there is something seriously wrong within the Muslim religion that would inspire so many of its adherents to religious violence. No, your 3.8 GPA in applied physics at Cornell doesn't mean shit on this topic since WE'RE NOT DISCUSSING APPLIED PHYSICSGod, TL General is such an awful place now. The closer we get to SC2, the more ignorant the average poster becomes. On January 10 2010 20:25 Mykill wrote:
The holocaust was not based on Christianity.
The crusades were fought a LONG time ago when everybody fought over "holy land" you don't see Christians getting together to take over Jerusalem.
I'm not religious but I'll give Christians some credit for not going overboard. Christian Serbs and Croats slaughtered, raped, destroyed thousands of Muslim Bosnians (and each other) less than 20 years ago - people of the very same fucking ethnicity and language - because of a political struggle combined with a ridiculous Serb religious myth about Prince Lazarus. 15 years ago, a Jewish doctor stormed into a mosque in Hebron and killed 29 people praying and wounded 150 others The Turner Diaries still influences thousands of people, some of which decided to blow up the Federal Building in Oklahoma. If you want to enter this discussion, maybe you should stop studying applied physics and take a course or two in history or sociology or poli sci. This clash of civilizations, 'other'ing bullshit is not only wrong, but it's the exact same process used to demonize the "West" by the disenfranchised idiots you have a problem with. A political/economic problems get reframed into a religious/cultural one, and all of the sudden you have a reason to enter direct conflict rather than use mechanisms like the political process to solve things. This is a problem with the Malaysian government, not a fucking religion. I agree with what you wrote in most of your post but maybe you should take a course in modern history before you start posting about events that you have no knowledge of. Normally I wouldn't care but you're using Serbia as an example and that's where I'm from so I would appreciate if you did some research about what happened there before you start throwing around terms like destroyed and slaughtered and raped and "Serb religious myth about Prince Lazarus". That's funny, because I have and what I said was true. That myth was created in the early 20th century, but it was revived in the 80s and 90s by ultra nationalists. Do you want to discuss what the Serbian military was doing in 93 and 94? Regardless of the fears of another Ustashe or the ridiculous lies about militant Bosnia, Serbian nationalism was fueled by religion and vice versa. Serbian nationalism had nothing to do with religion. You have to understand how Yugoslavia worked to understand the source of the Serbian nationalism. It stemmed mostly from the fact that Serbia was always the most powerful nation and then centre of Yugoslavia, and in order to keep Yugoslavia together Serbia had to forgo its own national interests for the interests of the other states and for Yugoslavia as a whole. After Tito died, a lot of Serbians started to resent this, since Tito was basically holding the country together. Milosevic came along and he basically ran on a platform of "hey we're the most powerful country why should we have to let everyone else have their way, we should start promoting our own interests". Of course Serbian people loved it so he was hugely popular. This rise in Serbian nationalism combined with the rise in nationalism of all the other states and the United States denying Yugoslavia trade credits and then offering economic aid to states that declared independence is was led to the breakup. After this basically everyone was at each others throats. And i wouldn't mind discussing what the Serbian military was doing in 93 and 94 if you wouldn't mind discussing what Bosnian Muslmis were doing to Bosnian Serbs before the military got there. Or what the Croation miliatry was doing at the same time. OR maybe you'd like to discuss what the American military was doing a few years later
![[image loading]](http://www.digitaljournalist.org/issue9907/images/db06.jpg)
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People people people . . .
This has nothing to do with religion.
This is just a political move by the Government in an attempt to gain favor from the majority. Imagine that, the Prime Minister claims that he is "powerless" to stop the protests, in the national news. The opposition would be sprayed with tear gas after 1 minute.
I know. I'm Malaysian.
Yes it is a stupid move to gain votes -- You know what conclusion can be drawn from that premise. Yes, this is really messed up, though i'm not christian.
(didn't read the 9 pages but i assume no one came with the truth since people are still arguing at the last few pages)
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On January 11 2010 18:53 JieXian wrote:
People people people . . .
This has nothing to do with religion.
This is just a political move by the Government in an attempt to gain favor from the majority. Imagine that, the Prime Minister claims that he is "powerless" to stop the protests, in the national news. The opposition would be sprayed with tear gas after 1 minute.
I know. I'm Malaysian.
Yes it is a stupid move to gain votes -- You know what conclusion can be drawn from that premise. Yes, this is really messed up, though i'm not christian.
(didn't read the 9 pages but i assume no one came with the truth since people are still arguing at the last few pages)
are u suggesting that the malaysian government intentionally let the muslims in malaysia to do as they please to gain their favor/vote??
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On January 11 2010 23:58 Shizuru~ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2010 18:53 JieXian wrote:
People people people . . .
This has nothing to do with religion.
This is just a political move by the Government in an attempt to gain favor from the majority. Imagine that, the Prime Minister claims that he is "powerless" to stop the protests, in the national news. The opposition would be sprayed with tear gas after 1 minute.
I know. I'm Malaysian.
Yes it is a stupid move to gain votes -- You know what conclusion can be drawn from that premise. Yes, this is really messed up, though i'm not christian.
(didn't read the 9 pages but i assume no one came with the truth since people are still arguing at the last few pages) are u suggesting that the malaysian government intentionally let the muslims in malaysia to do as they please to gain their favor/vote??
This has not been unheard of imho. Gaining the majority's vote has alway's been a shady job if the majority don't have a recent event or an exceedingly strong stimulus to vote for so-and-so, so (the party in question) could always create one.
News broadcast on the church attacks and arrests have been starting to air in my country already. Sensational, if not disturbing and outright a waste of human resources, well-being and intelligence (or whatever is left of it)
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On January 11 2010 13:52 daz wrote:a) Ok yeah the passages are gonna be worded a little differently but the message is still carried across, and even if those two I quoted aren't as bad in other versions there's still hundreds of similar passages of God commanding people to murder and rape, murdering people himself, encouraging murder, genocide, rape, the taking of slaves I mean it just goes on and on.
b) Regardless of how "simple" the times are I still wouldn't teach them to slaughter each other ruthlessly and take each other as slaves and rape women. As far as the the time it was written , I don't see why that matters seeing as that the bible is supposed to be written by god. Why would god pass down morals that involve rape and murder, you don't think god is capable of the same morals we are today? And your third point I'm not even sure I understand correctly, are you saying that it's good that rapists are forced to marry the women that they rape because its a deterrent for premarital sex.. what?
Oh and by the way it also says in the bible that world is flat, so at that time, God, the creator of the universe also thought the Earth was flat, so can you really blame the people? Also if I tried to explain a 3d universe to someone who wanders in the 2d world I certainly wouldn't tell him to slaughter people or rape women.
I couldn't help but notice how confused you are regarding Biblical passages. As was stated by others, you're taking things completely out of context. Let me clear things up a little for you, and for all those others who think God is some sort of monstrous killing machine:
Yes, God ordered the mass slaughter and destruction of many towns/villages/cities. Was this some sort of spontaneous "I feel like killing people" decision? No. The people of the cities that were completely destroyed by the Israelites (following God's orders) had been living in open denial of God for hundreds upon hundreds of years. You have to remember that the law of God was KNOWN by all the inhabitants of the land; after all, Adam and Eve were taught the laws of God and were able to pass them down to all of their children and those following. Everyone knew God's laws; no one had an excuse to blatantly defy them. Yet, they went ahead and defied them. They deliberately rejected God's laws and lived in open defiance of God's original word...Sodom and Gomorrha were just two examples of cities that God Himself destroyed because of this. God tolerated their defiance of hundreds of years...literally. He gave them so many chances and so much time to turn around their ways, and they still refused. So yes, he eventually destroyed them, and the others that wouldn't listen he destroyed as well by ordering the children of Israel to completely pillage their cities and erase any semblance of their civilizations.
Which person/country/ruling body do you know of that will tolerate deliberate disobedience to explicit laws for more than even a YEAR? None, I bet. God tolerated disobedience like this for HUNDREDS of years, dude...HUNDREDS. As I said before, the people were living in deliberate defiance of God's laws - nowadays, if someone does anything in deliberate defiance of the law, they are IMMEDIATELY jailed/killed/executed/whatever. From the Bible's description, God is more merciful and more tolerant than any person/country today; he gave all these people so many chances to change their ways, and they didn't. So yes, he eventually killed them all. The Israelites themselves began to disobey God, and he gave them chance after chance after chance to turn back around. They didn't, so he started killing them off as well (destruction of their temples, direct killing/plaguing of their people, etc.) Then when Christ was sent to the earth, as was WITNESSED by his disciples in the New Testament (as well as other sources), he told the Gentiles (non-Jews) that now anyone could come to God. In other words, God chose to open salvation to anyone, even to the people that He knew would kill his only Son and torture him on the cross. Who do you know nowadays that would grant forgiveness and happiness to someone that would kill their son? No one.
So, when you talk about "mass destruction and slaughter", you're talking about mass destruction and slaughter AFTER WAITING HUNDREDS OF YEARS for people to listen to His word. It still stands that a God that gives people that much time to stop their wrongdoing is the most merciful being there is.
And no, God didn't think the world was flat - I'm not sure which atheist website shoved that trash into your head. The descriptions of the world offered by certain passages in the Bible ("ends of the earth", etc.) were the only ways that SOME writers of the Bible at that time could describe the Earth because they didn't know that it was round. But you're even more wrong than that - Paul, in his letters to various churches mentions "heavenly bodies" which is a pretty explicit allusion to planets and stars and other such "non-2D" elements. I think you don't know your Bible very well.
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On January 12 2010 00:35 skypig wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2010 13:52 daz wrote:a) Ok yeah the passages are gonna be worded a little differently but the message is still carried across, and even if those two I quoted aren't as bad in other versions there's still hundreds of similar passages of God commanding people to murder and rape, murdering people himself, encouraging murder, genocide, rape, the taking of slaves I mean it just goes on and on.
b) Regardless of how "simple" the times are I still wouldn't teach them to slaughter each other ruthlessly and take each other as slaves and rape women. As far as the the time it was written , I don't see why that matters seeing as that the bible is supposed to be written by god. Why would god pass down morals that involve rape and murder, you don't think god is capable of the same morals we are today? And your third point I'm not even sure I understand correctly, are you saying that it's good that rapists are forced to marry the women that they rape because its a deterrent for premarital sex.. what?
Oh and by the way it also says in the bible that world is flat, so at that time, God, the creator of the universe also thought the Earth was flat, so can you really blame the people? Also if I tried to explain a 3d universe to someone who wanders in the 2d world I certainly wouldn't tell him to slaughter people or rape women. I couldn't help but notice how confused you are regarding Biblical passages. As was stated by others, you're taking things completely out of context. Let me clear things up a little for you, and for all those others who think God is some sort of monstrous killing machine: Yes, God ordered the mass slaughter and destruction of many towns/villages/cities. Was this some sort of spontaneous "I feel like killing people" decision? No. The people of the cities that were completely destroyed by the Israelites (following God's orders) had been living in open denial of God for hundreds upon hundreds of years. You have to remember that the law of God was KNOWN by all the inhabitants of the land; after all, Adam and Eve were taught the laws of God and were able to pass them down to all of their children and those following. Everyone knew God's laws; no one had an excuse to blatantly defy them. Yet, they went ahead and defied them. They deliberately rejected God's laws and lived in open defiance of God's original word...Sodom and Gomorrha were just two examples of cities that God Himself destroyed because of this. God tolerated their defiance of hundreds of years...literally. He gave them so many chances and so much time to turn around their ways, and they still refused. So yes, he eventually destroyed them, and the others that wouldn't listen he destroyed as well by ordering the children of Israel to completely pillage their cities and erase any semblance of their civilizations. Which person/country/ruling body do you know of that will tolerate deliberate disobedience to explicit laws for more than even a YEAR? None, I bet. God tolerated disobedience like this for HUNDREDS of years, dude...HUNDREDS. As I said before, the people were living in deliberate defiance of God's laws - nowadays, if someone does anything in deliberate defiance of the law, they are IMMEDIATELY jailed/killed/executed/whatever. From the Bible's description, God is more merciful and more tolerant than any person/country today; he gave all these people so many chances to change their ways, and they didn't. So yes, he eventually killed them all. The Israelites themselves began to disobey God, and he gave them chance after chance after chance to turn back around. They didn't, so he started killing them off as well (destruction of their temples, direct killing/plaguing of their people, etc.) Then when Christ was sent to the earth, as was WITNESSED by his disciples in the New Testament (as well as other sources), he told the Gentiles (non-Jews) that now anyone could come to God. In other words, God chose to open salvation to anyone, even to the people that He knew would kill his only Son and torture him on the cross. Who do you know nowadays that would grant forgiveness and happiness to someone that would kill their son? No one. So, when you talk about "mass destruction and slaughter", you're talking about mass destruction and slaughter AFTER WAITING HUNDREDS OF YEARS for people to listen to His word. It still stands that a God that gives people that much time to stop their wrongdoing is the most merciful being there is. And no, God didn't think the world was flat - I'm not sure which atheist website shoved that trash into your head. The descriptions of the world offered by certain passages in the Bible ("ends of the earth", etc.) were the only ways that SOME writers of the Bible at that time could describe the Earth because they didn't know that it was round. But you're even more wrong than that - Paul, in his letters to various churches mentions "heavenly bodies" which is a pretty explicit allusion to planets and stars and other such "non-2D" elements. I think you don't know your Bible very well.
I wonder how many years of disobedience would it take before you start slaughtering your children?
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On January 12 2010 01:30 daz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2010 00:35 skypig wrote:On January 11 2010 13:52 daz wrote:a) Ok yeah the passages are gonna be worded a little differently but the message is still carried across, and even if those two I quoted aren't as bad in other versions there's still hundreds of similar passages of God commanding people to murder and rape, murdering people himself, encouraging murder, genocide, rape, the taking of slaves I mean it just goes on and on.
b) Regardless of how "simple" the times are I still wouldn't teach them to slaughter each other ruthlessly and take each other as slaves and rape women. As far as the the time it was written , I don't see why that matters seeing as that the bible is supposed to be written by god. Why would god pass down morals that involve rape and murder, you don't think god is capable of the same morals we are today? And your third point I'm not even sure I understand correctly, are you saying that it's good that rapists are forced to marry the women that they rape because its a deterrent for premarital sex.. what?
Oh and by the way it also says in the bible that world is flat, so at that time, God, the creator of the universe also thought the Earth was flat, so can you really blame the people? Also if I tried to explain a 3d universe to someone who wanders in the 2d world I certainly wouldn't tell him to slaughter people or rape women. I couldn't help but notice how confused you are regarding Biblical passages. As was stated by others, you're taking things completely out of context. Let me clear things up a little for you, and for all those others who think God is some sort of monstrous killing machine: Yes, God ordered the mass slaughter and destruction of many towns/villages/cities. Was this some sort of spontaneous "I feel like killing people" decision? No. The people of the cities that were completely destroyed by the Israelites (following God's orders) had been living in open denial of God for hundreds upon hundreds of years. You have to remember that the law of God was KNOWN by all the inhabitants of the land; after all, Adam and Eve were taught the laws of God and were able to pass them down to all of their children and those following. Everyone knew God's laws; no one had an excuse to blatantly defy them. Yet, they went ahead and defied them. They deliberately rejected God's laws and lived in open defiance of God's original word...Sodom and Gomorrha were just two examples of cities that God Himself destroyed because of this. God tolerated their defiance of hundreds of years...literally. He gave them so many chances and so much time to turn around their ways, and they still refused. So yes, he eventually destroyed them, and the others that wouldn't listen he destroyed as well by ordering the children of Israel to completely pillage their cities and erase any semblance of their civilizations. Which person/country/ruling body do you know of that will tolerate deliberate disobedience to explicit laws for more than even a YEAR? None, I bet. God tolerated disobedience like this for HUNDREDS of years, dude...HUNDREDS. As I said before, the people were living in deliberate defiance of God's laws - nowadays, if someone does anything in deliberate defiance of the law, they are IMMEDIATELY jailed/killed/executed/whatever. From the Bible's description, God is more merciful and more tolerant than any person/country today; he gave all these people so many chances to change their ways, and they didn't. So yes, he eventually killed them all. The Israelites themselves began to disobey God, and he gave them chance after chance after chance to turn back around. They didn't, so he started killing them off as well (destruction of their temples, direct killing/plaguing of their people, etc.) Then when Christ was sent to the earth, as was WITNESSED by his disciples in the New Testament (as well as other sources), he told the Gentiles (non-Jews) that now anyone could come to God. In other words, God chose to open salvation to anyone, even to the people that He knew would kill his only Son and torture him on the cross. Who do you know nowadays that would grant forgiveness and happiness to someone that would kill their son? No one. So, when you talk about "mass destruction and slaughter", you're talking about mass destruction and slaughter AFTER WAITING HUNDREDS OF YEARS for people to listen to His word. It still stands that a God that gives people that much time to stop their wrongdoing is the most merciful being there is. And no, God didn't think the world was flat - I'm not sure which atheist website shoved that trash into your head. The descriptions of the world offered by certain passages in the Bible ("ends of the earth", etc.) were the only ways that SOME writers of the Bible at that time could describe the Earth because they didn't know that it was round. But you're even more wrong than that - Paul, in his letters to various churches mentions "heavenly bodies" which is a pretty explicit allusion to planets and stars and other such "non-2D" elements. I think you don't know your Bible very well. I wonder how many years of disobedience would it take before you start slaughtering your children?
That kind of comparison just made me lol at you
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On January 12 2010 01:40 lavion wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2010 01:30 daz wrote:On January 12 2010 00:35 skypig wrote:On January 11 2010 13:52 daz wrote:a) Ok yeah the passages are gonna be worded a little differently but the message is still carried across, and even if those two I quoted aren't as bad in other versions there's still hundreds of similar passages of God commanding people to murder and rape, murdering people himself, encouraging murder, genocide, rape, the taking of slaves I mean it just goes on and on.
b) Regardless of how "simple" the times are I still wouldn't teach them to slaughter each other ruthlessly and take each other as slaves and rape women. As far as the the time it was written , I don't see why that matters seeing as that the bible is supposed to be written by god. Why would god pass down morals that involve rape and murder, you don't think god is capable of the same morals we are today? And your third point I'm not even sure I understand correctly, are you saying that it's good that rapists are forced to marry the women that they rape because its a deterrent for premarital sex.. what?
Oh and by the way it also says in the bible that world is flat, so at that time, God, the creator of the universe also thought the Earth was flat, so can you really blame the people? Also if I tried to explain a 3d universe to someone who wanders in the 2d world I certainly wouldn't tell him to slaughter people or rape women. I couldn't help but notice how confused you are regarding Biblical passages. As was stated by others, you're taking things completely out of context. Let me clear things up a little for you, and for all those others who think God is some sort of monstrous killing machine: Yes, God ordered the mass slaughter and destruction of many towns/villages/cities. Was this some sort of spontaneous "I feel like killing people" decision? No. The people of the cities that were completely destroyed by the Israelites (following God's orders) had been living in open denial of God for hundreds upon hundreds of years. You have to remember that the law of God was KNOWN by all the inhabitants of the land; after all, Adam and Eve were taught the laws of God and were able to pass them down to all of their children and those following. Everyone knew God's laws; no one had an excuse to blatantly defy them. Yet, they went ahead and defied them. They deliberately rejected God's laws and lived in open defiance of God's original word...Sodom and Gomorrha were just two examples of cities that God Himself destroyed because of this. God tolerated their defiance of hundreds of years...literally. He gave them so many chances and so much time to turn around their ways, and they still refused. So yes, he eventually destroyed them, and the others that wouldn't listen he destroyed as well by ordering the children of Israel to completely pillage their cities and erase any semblance of their civilizations. Which person/country/ruling body do you know of that will tolerate deliberate disobedience to explicit laws for more than even a YEAR? None, I bet. God tolerated disobedience like this for HUNDREDS of years, dude...HUNDREDS. As I said before, the people were living in deliberate defiance of God's laws - nowadays, if someone does anything in deliberate defiance of the law, they are IMMEDIATELY jailed/killed/executed/whatever. From the Bible's description, God is more merciful and more tolerant than any person/country today; he gave all these people so many chances to change their ways, and they didn't. So yes, he eventually killed them all. The Israelites themselves began to disobey God, and he gave them chance after chance after chance to turn back around. They didn't, so he started killing them off as well (destruction of their temples, direct killing/plaguing of their people, etc.) Then when Christ was sent to the earth, as was WITNESSED by his disciples in the New Testament (as well as other sources), he told the Gentiles (non-Jews) that now anyone could come to God. In other words, God chose to open salvation to anyone, even to the people that He knew would kill his only Son and torture him on the cross. Who do you know nowadays that would grant forgiveness and happiness to someone that would kill their son? No one. So, when you talk about "mass destruction and slaughter", you're talking about mass destruction and slaughter AFTER WAITING HUNDREDS OF YEARS for people to listen to His word. It still stands that a God that gives people that much time to stop their wrongdoing is the most merciful being there is. And no, God didn't think the world was flat - I'm not sure which atheist website shoved that trash into your head. The descriptions of the world offered by certain passages in the Bible ("ends of the earth", etc.) were the only ways that SOME writers of the Bible at that time could describe the Earth because they didn't know that it was round. But you're even more wrong than that - Paul, in his letters to various churches mentions "heavenly bodies" which is a pretty explicit allusion to planets and stars and other such "non-2D" elements. I think you don't know your Bible very well. I wonder how many years of disobedience would it take before you start slaughtering your children? That kind of comparison just made me lol at you
I don't see whats funny about it, he's basically saying its ok to slaughter hundreds of thousands of people brutally if you make up some rules and they disobey them for a long enough period of time. We can see that for god the period of time is hundreds of years, I'm just wondering what is the period of time he requires before he becomes turns genocidal.
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On January 11 2010 18:19 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2010 12:22 daz wrote:On January 11 2010 11:30 Jibba wrote:On January 11 2010 10:29 daz wrote:On January 10 2010 20:43 Jibba wrote:On January 10 2010 11:14 Savant wrote:On January 10 2010 10:46 daz wrote:On January 10 2010 10:27 Savant wrote:On January 10 2010 02:52 MannerMan wrote:
It is very sad that so many can be moved so strongly by religion.
I hope one day they can see the beautiful truths behind our existence instead of the lies and tyranny of those who oppress them with fear. LOL at the atheists and science-worshippers. Sure, if we eliminate all religion we can get rid of all that's wrong in the world. Oh wait, I forgot that Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Castro, etc. were all devout worshippers of God who didn't massacre innocent members of religious minorities. And certainly the innumerable humanitarian programs fueled by religious belief would certainly continue if everyone came to their senses and became atheist (hint: look at China for this dream state). Let's not forget that Eugenics was a direct result of scientific, not religious, ideas. Let's face it people, looking at history being inhuman is the natural state of humanity, and just because people manipulate religion (along with everything else) to justify their greed, bigotry, or racism doesn't make religion the villain. If anything, religion provides a check to some of these tendencies: without religion Hitler, Mao, etc. could still exist, but Mother Teresa could not. If you're atheist fine, but don't go calling people who differ with your OPINION ignorant mislead retards because that's just announcing that you're an ignorant mislead retard, and puts you on the same level as that Muslim/Christian/Hindu who right now is calling you an ignorant mislead retard. Believe it or not, there is a way to rationally discuss sensitive issues like this without resorting to name calling and displays of your intellectual bigotry. Thank you very much. There's no way for YOU to rationally discuss them because you're not capable of rational thinking. I'm an applied physics major at Cornell with a 3.8 GPA. I think I'm entitled to be considered at least a somewhat rational human being. And no, I'm not denying that religion can be bad as well as good. I'm just calling out the idiots who make religion the scapegoat for all that is wrong with the world. My personal opinion on the matter is that the people involved should be tried and punished as criminals. I also think there is something seriously wrong within the Muslim religion that would inspire so many of its adherents to religious violence. No, your 3.8 GPA in applied physics at Cornell doesn't mean shit on this topic since WE'RE NOT DISCUSSING APPLIED PHYSICSGod, TL General is such an awful place now. The closer we get to SC2, the more ignorant the average poster becomes. On January 10 2010 20:25 Mykill wrote:
The holocaust was not based on Christianity.
The crusades were fought a LONG time ago when everybody fought over "holy land" you don't see Christians getting together to take over Jerusalem.
I'm not religious but I'll give Christians some credit for not going overboard. Christian Serbs and Croats slaughtered, raped, destroyed thousands of Muslim Bosnians (and each other) less than 20 years ago - people of the very same fucking ethnicity and language - because of a political struggle combined with a ridiculous Serb religious myth about Prince Lazarus. 15 years ago, a Jewish doctor stormed into a mosque in Hebron and killed 29 people praying and wounded 150 others The Turner Diaries still influences thousands of people, some of which decided to blow up the Federal Building in Oklahoma. If you want to enter this discussion, maybe you should stop studying applied physics and take a course or two in history or sociology or poli sci. This clash of civilizations, 'other'ing bullshit is not only wrong, but it's the exact same process used to demonize the "West" by the disenfranchised idiots you have a problem with. A political/economic problems get reframed into a religious/cultural one, and all of the sudden you have a reason to enter direct conflict rather than use mechanisms like the political process to solve things. This is a problem with the Malaysian government, not a fucking religion. I agree with what you wrote in most of your post but maybe you should take a course in modern history before you start posting about events that you have no knowledge of. Normally I wouldn't care but you're using Serbia as an example and that's where I'm from so I would appreciate if you did some research about what happened there before you start throwing around terms like destroyed and slaughtered and raped and "Serb religious myth about Prince Lazarus". That's funny, because I have and what I said was true. That myth was created in the early 20th century, but it was revived in the 80s and 90s by ultra nationalists. Do you want to discuss what the Serbian military was doing in 93 and 94? Regardless of the fears of another Ustashe or the ridiculous lies about militant Bosnia, Serbian nationalism was fueled by religion and vice versa. Serbian nationalism had nothing to do with religion. You have to understand how Yugoslavia worked to understand the source of the Serbian nationalism. It stemmed mostly from the fact that Serbia was always the most powerful nation and then centre of Yugoslavia, and in order to keep Yugoslavia together Serbia had to forgo its own national interests for the interests of the other states and for Yugoslavia as a whole. After Tito died, a lot of Serbians started to resent this, since Tito was basically holding the country together. Milosevic came along and he basically ran on a platform of "hey we're the most powerful country why should we have to let everyone else have their way, we should start promoting our own interests". Of course Serbian people loved it so he was hugely popular. This rise in Serbian nationalism combined with the rise in nationalism of all the other states and the United States denying Yugoslavia trade credits and then offering economic aid to states that declared independence is was led to the breakup. After this basically everyone was at each others throats. And i wouldn't mind discussing what the Serbian military was doing in 93 and 94 if you wouldn't mind discussing what Bosnian Muslmis were doing to Bosnian Serbs before the military got there. Or what the Croation miliatry was doing at the same time. OR maybe you'd like to discuss what the American military was doing a few years later
So one person at one point of time spray painted that image onto a wall at some place and therefore Serbians slaughtered people over that religious myth?
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On January 11 2010 23:58 Shizuru~ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2010 18:53 JieXian wrote:
People people people . . .
This has nothing to do with religion.
This is just a political move by the Government in an attempt to gain favor from the majority. Imagine that, the Prime Minister claims that he is "powerless" to stop the protests, in the national news. The opposition would be sprayed with tear gas after 1 minute.
I know. I'm Malaysian.
Yes it is a stupid move to gain votes -- You know what conclusion can be drawn from that premise. Yes, this is really messed up, though i'm not christian.
(didn't read the 9 pages but i assume no one came with the truth since people are still arguing at the last few pages) are u suggesting that the malaysian government intentionally let the muslims in malaysia to do as they please to gain their favor/vote??
you know.. its pretty hard to stop a bunch of retarded people firebombing random places of worship at odd hours. Racial issues in Malaysia are taken very seriously, we have our history and the educated population definitely know that this kind of shit needs to be stopped as soon as possible before it turns into a wildfire. Malaysian government is kind of corrupted, but their far from "intentionally let the muslims in malaysia to do as they please to gain their favor/vote".
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+ Show Spoiler +On January 12 2010 00:35 skypig wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2010 13:52 daz wrote:a) Ok yeah the passages are gonna be worded a little differently but the message is still carried across, and even if those two I quoted aren't as bad in other versions there's still hundreds of similar passages of God commanding people to murder and rape, murdering people himself, encouraging murder, genocide, rape, the taking of slaves I mean it just goes on and on.
b) Regardless of how "simple" the times are I still wouldn't teach them to slaughter each other ruthlessly and take each other as slaves and rape women. As far as the the time it was written , I don't see why that matters seeing as that the bible is supposed to be written by god. Why would god pass down morals that involve rape and murder, you don't think god is capable of the same morals we are today? And your third point I'm not even sure I understand correctly, are you saying that it's good that rapists are forced to marry the women that they rape because its a deterrent for premarital sex.. what?
Oh and by the way it also says in the bible that world is flat, so at that time, God, the creator of the universe also thought the Earth was flat, so can you really blame the people? Also if I tried to explain a 3d universe to someone who wanders in the 2d world I certainly wouldn't tell him to slaughter people or rape women. I couldn't help but notice how confused you are regarding Biblical passages. As was stated by others, you're taking things completely out of context. Let me clear things up a little for you, and for all those others who think God is some sort of monstrous killing machine: Yes, God ordered the mass slaughter and destruction of many towns/villages/cities. Was this some sort of spontaneous "I feel like killing people" decision? No. The people of the cities that were completely destroyed by the Israelites (following God's orders) had been living in open denial of God for hundreds upon hundreds of years. You have to remember that the law of God was KNOWN by all the inhabitants of the land; after all, Adam and Eve were taught the laws of God and were able to pass them down to all of their children and those following. Everyone knew God's laws; no one had an excuse to blatantly defy them. Yet, they went ahead and defied them. They deliberately rejected God's laws and lived in open defiance of God's original word...Sodom and Gomorrha were just two examples of cities that God Himself destroyed because of this. God tolerated their defiance of hundreds of years...literally. He gave them so many chances and so much time to turn around their ways, and they still refused. So yes, he eventually destroyed them, and the others that wouldn't listen he destroyed as well by ordering the children of Israel to completely pillage their cities and erase any semblance of their civilizations. Which person/country/ruling body do you know of that will tolerate deliberate disobedience to explicit laws for more than even a YEAR? None, I bet. God tolerated disobedience like this for HUNDREDS of years, dude...HUNDREDS. As I said before, the people were living in deliberate defiance of God's laws - nowadays, if someone does anything in deliberate defiance of the law, they are IMMEDIATELY jailed/killed/executed/whatever. From the Bible's description, God is more merciful and more tolerant than any person/country today; he gave all these people so many chances to change their ways, and they didn't. So yes, he eventually killed them all. The Israelites themselves began to disobey God, and he gave them chance after chance after chance to turn back around. They didn't, so he started killing them off as well (destruction of their temples, direct killing/plaguing of their people, etc.) Then when Christ was sent to the earth, as was WITNESSED by his disciples in the New Testament (as well as other sources), he told the Gentiles (non-Jews) that now anyone could come to God. In other words, God chose to open salvation to anyone, even to the people that He knew would kill his only Son and torture him on the cross. Who do you know nowadays that would grant forgiveness and happiness to someone that would kill their son? No one. So, when you talk about "mass destruction and slaughter", you're talking about mass destruction and slaughter AFTER WAITING HUNDREDS OF YEARS for people to listen to His word. It still stands that a God that gives people that much time to stop their wrongdoing is the most merciful being there is. And no, God didn't think the world was flat - I'm not sure which atheist website shoved that trash into your head. The descriptions of the world offered by certain passages in the Bible ("ends of the earth", etc.) were the only ways that SOME writers of the Bible at that time could describe the Earth because they didn't know that it was round. But you're even more wrong than that - Paul, in his letters to various churches mentions "heavenly bodies" which is a pretty explicit allusion to planets and stars and other such "non-2D" elements. I think you don't know your Bible very well.
Wait, so if my ancestors had founded some random religion XYZ a couple hundred years back, could I use that as a legitimate excuse to purge the earth of you and your kind (assuming you don't convert, of course)? Oh, and by the way, my truth is the only truth, and my god XYZ is the only real god, despite it coming both after yours and drawing numerous ideas directly from your religion. Convert now! XYZ's mercy will only last so long...
When you speak of laws and the disobedience thereof, you are aware that the area comprised of numerous independent city states at the time? How can one declare others over whom one has no jurisdiction to be disobedient of one's own laws?
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On January 11 2010 16:03 L wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2010 15:41 daz wrote:On January 11 2010 15:35 L wrote:Would you like to clarify? Not really. I'd rather go to sleep. Suffice it to say, your last few posts have shown that you know very little about that which you're talking about. If I can point you in the right direction, look at the role of the talmud in judaism. Also, distinguish between Islam and Christianity when saying things like "god wrote the bible". All of that is completely irrelevant to the point that I made. It looks like based on your post you know even less about what I'm talking about. No, it isn't. I don't think it would be easy to see the relevance coming from a position of ignorance, though.
What an incredibly dishonest way to argue. Call someone ignorant for reasons which you won't explain and then decline to explain them because you claim the person is in a position of ignorance.
To be honest I don't even think you read my original argument because all you seem to be doing is attempting to disprove the examples I used to back it up in a way that doesn't even seem relevant to the argument. Even if you did manage to somehow discredit those two biblical quotes I used there are hundreds more that I could have picked, it's just a coincidence that those two both happened to be from Deuteronomy. Not only that but there are even more that I could have picked from the quran so i fail to see how i need to "distinguish between Islam and Christianity when saying things like "god wrote the bible"" seeing as how the difference between Islam and Christianity is completely irrelevant to my point. Anyway since you seem to be so knowledgeable about these things I'm wondering if you could provide where the following statements were "heavily qualified by later developments" and where I could find the "accompanying rabbinical texts" to explain them, even though you didn't even do that for the first two quotes.. but I'm gonna ask anyway
+ Show Spoiler +1 Samuel 15:3 (King James Version)
3Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
Psalm 137:8-9 (King James Version)
8O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us.
9Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.
Exodus 21:20-21 (King James Version)
20And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.
21Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.
Ezekiel 9:4-7 (King James Version)
4And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
5And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:
6Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.
7And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.
Isaiah 14:21 (King James Version)
21Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.
+ Show Spoiler +4.15. If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way.
2.190. Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.
2.191. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.
2.192. But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
2.193. And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah. But if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression.
5.33. The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;
8.38. Say to the Unbelievers, if (now) they desist (from Unbelief), their past would be forgiven them; but if they persist, the punishment of those before them is already (a matter of warning for them).
8.39. And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.
9.5. But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
9.29. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
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Online atheism is one of the most annoying religions ever.
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On January 12 2010 01:30 daz wrote:
I wonder how many years of disobedience would it take before you start slaughtering your children?
Nice dodge. My point was that you can't imply that God is a nasty killer if He put up with disobedience for more time than you, your parents, your country, or any thing or person on this earth would ever put up with - you still can't refute that.
As for me slaughtering my children, I'm not going to pretend like I'm God and can do whatever I want. God did what He did for a reason: people were disobeying him continually. However, he also sent His Son for a reason, and that was to give everyone the chance at being saved from the consequences of disobedience. In case you didn't notice, the New Testament tends to emphasize meekness and "turning the other cheek" rather than retaliation and violence like killing your kids for disobedience. God can do whatever He wants - he was completely just in killing those that disobeyed Him because they WERE disobeying Him. You wouldn't call your country's law "nasty and unjust" or whatever of carrying out punishments on those that broke the law. God was doing the same thing; in this case you're just trying to cast it in an unfair light because you don't get it quite yet.
As people, we do what God tells us, and He told us through his Son to follow his commandments and keep from sinning - also, to suffer wrongs and "turn the other cheek" instead of retaliating with physical force. He never said that we should try to copy what he did to the disobedient sinners in the deserts of Israel. I guess you still haven't read the Bible enough - it emphasizes the keeping of God's commandments and the teachings of Christ and his prophets, not for human beings to "play God" and copy God's actions that were carried out on a disobedient people in a different time.
Again, though, nice dodge, and nice job taking things out of context. I'm sure you'll keep it up.
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On January 12 2010 04:01 skypig wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2010 01:30 daz wrote:
I wonder how many years of disobedience would it take before you start slaughtering your children? Nice dodge. My point was that you can't imply that God is a nasty killer if He put up with disobedience for more time than you, your parents, your country, or any thing or person on this earth would ever put up with - you still can't refute that. As for me slaughtering my children, I'm not going to pretend like I'm God and can do whatever I want. God did what He did for a reason: people were disobeying him continually. However, he also sent His Son for a reason, and that was to give everyone the chance at being saved from the consequences of disobedience. In case you didn't notice, the New Testament tends to emphasize meekness and "turning the other cheek" rather than retaliation and violence like killing your kids for disobedience. God can do whatever He wants - he was completely just in killing those that disobeyed Him because they WERE disobeying Him. You wouldn't call your country's law "nasty and unjust" or whatever of carrying out punishments on those that broke the law. God was doing the same thing; in this case you're just trying to cast it in an unfair light because you don't get it quite yet. As people, we do what God tells us, and He told us through his Son to follow his commandments and keep from sinning - also, to suffer wrongs and "turn the other cheek" instead of retaliating with physical force. He never said that we should try to copy what he did to the disobedient sinners in the deserts of Israel. I guess you still haven't read the Bible enough - it emphasizes the keeping of God's commandments and the teachings of Christ and his prophets, not for human beings to "play God" and copy God's actions that were carried out on a disobedient people in a different time. Again, though, nice dodge, and nice job taking things out of context. I'm sure you'll keep it up.
It's not a dodge, disobedience is no reason to commit genocide, no matter how long it goes on. You are one sick puppy if you think its ok to murder people for disobeying.
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What an incredibly dishonest way to argue. Call someone ignorant for reasons which you won't explain and then decline to explain them because you claim the person is in a position of ignorance. I'm not the one that charged in here pretending I knew what I was quoting. I will fully admit that I'm incredibly ignorant of quite a lot when it comes to biblical scripture, but I also know enough to be able to point out grievous faults in reasoning.
I'm not even arguing here. I'm just saying you're ignorant, which you are. I gave you a few places to start research if you're actually interested.
Also, stating that a bunch of things I've said are irrelevant when you don't know what you're talking about, and thus WHY they're relevant doesn't get you off the hook.
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On January 12 2010 04:45 L wrote:Show nested quote +What an incredibly dishonest way to argue. Call someone ignorant for reasons which you won't explain and then decline to explain them because you claim the person is in a position of ignorance. I'm not the one that charged in here pretending I knew what I was quoting. I will fully admit that I'm incredibly ignorant of quite a lot when it comes to biblical scripture, but I also know enough to be able to point out grievous faults in reasoning. I'm not even arguing here. I'm just saying you're ignorant, which you are. I gave you a few places to start research if you're actually interested.
You weren't pointing out faults in reasoning, you were pointing out a lack of knowledge. Why even call me ignorant if reasoning was my problem? Am I ignorant or am I stupid? Or maybe there some other insults you would like to hurl at me without justification?
Anyway I full acknowledge that I am ignorant in the areas that you accuse me of being ignorant, but it doesn't bother me in the slightest since they are completely irrelevant to the point that I was making and to my life in general.
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EPT
