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On January 12 2010 09:38 ghostWriter wrote:
skypig, how do you know what God wants? Just because it says so in some book? And who is this God? How do you know him or even that he exists? You exchange facebook messages?
Thanks for asking. I don't pretend to know God's complete plan because no human will ever know that. I know that God is merciful towards the wicked and just towards all because the events described and witnessed in the Bible show that, and there are some parts where God explicitly states his own wishes for the salvation of humans (" 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked', saith the Lord.")
As for the Bible being "some book", it's the truest book I've read in my entire life - when I was younger, I didn't understand it and I didn't feel it, but now I do. I know who God is through my own experience and my own faith - I have witnessed miracles both in myself that seriously would never have happened without God. I have seen people close to me and far from me transformed in the same way. I have seen miracles that you would not believe if I told you. I have heard of others' experiences with God, as well as of the miracles and "impossible" (but possible with God, I can't really explain it) things that happened to those who followed Christ in Yugoslavia, which is where my parents came from. I had many relatives, some of which are alive to this day, who were thrown in jail in Yugoslavia for refusing to bear arms in the wars (we refuse to fight in wars). I can't talk about the things they witnessed and saw happen in those times because those things are incredibly close to them and I wouldn't subject them to open mockery from a bunch of atheists who wouldn't believe them anyway. I admit that miracles can't make you believe - there were crippled men in the Bible who had their legs instantly healed by Jesus and yet, they got up, walked away, and never looked back and gave praise to God; they were just glad to have their legs back. Just know that miracles do happen; I have experienced them, others I know and talk to have experienced them, and all followers of Christ have directly experienced God's presence and guidance themselves.
So yes, I know that God exists. No, I can't run an experiment or derive a calculus equation that explicitly proves it to your face, but then again, since when did the entirety of truth reside within scientific constructs? Since never. Scientific biases and Richard Dawkins' ramblings don't change the fact that every day of my life, I experience God's mercy and power, and I have such a powerful, filling happiness in my life that I wish everyone else could have it. Unfortunately, I know this will not happen; the Bible explicitly states that there will be those who will willfully remain ignorant of God's truth. I hate to think about it, but I know that's the way it has to be. I just hope that people start thinking and praying and opening their eyes that so often remain forced shut. There is a God. The Bible is true. Those who witnessed God's work and Christ's work put their witnessing into the Bible, and anyone who denies this has no one to blame but their own doubt and ignorance. I find it funny that people even try to challenge it when I know and feel every day that it is the truth, and that truth sets me free from all the trash that so many people in this world have to put up with. Again, I just wish that everyone else could be set free as well.
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On January 12 2010 13:48 skypig wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2010 09:38 ghostWriter wrote:
skypig, how do you know what God wants? Just because it says so in some book? And who is this God? How do you know him or even that he exists? You exchange facebook messages? So yes, I know that God exists.
LoL. Quoting you is a better argument than writing a reply. "I know god exists" No you don't. Nobody does. That little voice in your head that you speak to is the product of chemicals instead your brain.
Religion is as awful as slavery, hopefully some day all of you crazies realize the ideologies you support.
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He knows God exists. He can't prove it, but it's true.
Feelings people, feelings. Believe.
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On January 12 2010 14:11 reit wrote:
LoL. Quoting you is a better argument than writing a reply. "I know god exists" No you don't. Nobody does. That little voice in your head that you speak to is the product of chemicals instead your brain.
Religion is as awful as slavery, hopefully some day all of you crazies realize the ideologies you support.
Richard Dawkins trained you well, little one - you're already ignorantly telling people that they "don't know" what they know. Right now you sound as ridiculous as if you were trying to tell me that I can't see my hand in front of my own face. I know that God exists; you don't. Because you don't realize and feel that God exists means that He doesn't? No - it just means you're ignorant. Your logic is flawed even by the rules of science - you're making a claim for which you have no evidence. You've practically made up your own ignorant religion in, like, two seconds right there, telling people that "they don't know" what they do INDEED know. I had no idea Dawkins' ignorance spread this fast.
And no, that "little voice" in your head that you're talking about can be any variety of things, anything EXCEPT chemicals. Chemicals can't talk, son, nor can they make you think you're hearing things. Some people have the voice of the Devil in their heads, some people have the voice of God, some people have many voices of many demons in their head that they've given themselves over to...of course, "smart people" like to call that schitzophrenia or whatever. Haha. Funny.
And yes, religion is awful - I hate religion. Religion has destroyed the truth of God and covered it with a bunch of superficial customs and empty traditions that so many people fall for. The people that actually have a living faith are few and far between (no surprise; the Bible predicts that too) and the number will continue to get smaller.
As far as I'm concerned, "slavery" is the state you're in when you don't realize that God exists and you live only to fulfill your own selfish pleasures and only ever "do good things" because people tell you that's "what's right" without even knowing WHY it's right. The rest of the time you're following society's laws under the pretense of "being good" but really you're just a slave to your passions. You find distractions like drinking heavily, doing drugs, and partying in an attempt to squelch out the emptiness you feel. It works, but only for a time. Ask people who have been through it and done it. It's nothing but a farce and a lame attempt to cover up the real problem. Seriously, it makes me sad, but at the same time happy because I know people who were stuck in that ditch for quite some time, but with God's help, they got lifted out. I wish everyone could.
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On January 12 2010 15:03 skypig wrote:
And yes, religion is awful - I hate religion. Religion has destroyed the truth of God and covered it with a bunch of superficial customs and empty traditions that so many people fall for. The people that actually have a living faith are few and far between (no surprise; the Bible predicts that too) and the number will continue to get smaller.
I'm a little confused on your position. You've extensively quoted the bible, but you believe that religion has destroyed and covered the truth of god. How do you know that the bible isn't simply a byproduct of flawed religion? Has everything 'true' that you know about god been told to you by voices in your head, or do you get information out of books that carry on solely through 'empty tradition'?
What would you say if I told you that I knew with total certainty, that god did not exist and that you telling me otherwise only expresses your ignorance? I can provide whatever reasoning that you have used to fill in the obvious logical gaps in the statement.
And furthermore along that line of though, I assume that you consider god from a monotheistic point of view. How do you know that the hindu gods and goddesses don't exist? What would you say if I told you that I know for certain that they do exist? That denying their existence is like denying the vision of your own hands (your example - which is also flawed), and that this denial has doomed you?
And no, that "little voice" in your head that you're talking about can be any variety of things, anything EXCEPT chemicals. Chemicals can't talk, son, nor can they make you think you're hearing things. Some people have the voice of the Devil in their heads, some people have the voice of God, some people have many voices of many demons in their head that they've given themselves over to...of course, "smart people" like to call that schitzophrenia or whatever. Haha. Funny.
This is the part that makes me suspect trolling. What about drugs with proven psychological side effects? What about drugs that are proven to reduce the effects of psychological ailments like schizophrenia? These are just chemicals affecting other chemicals.
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On January 12 2010 15:03 skypig wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2010 14:11 reit wrote:
LoL. Quoting you is a better argument than writing a reply. "I know god exists" No you don't. Nobody does. That little voice in your head that you speak to is the product of chemicals instead your brain.
Religion is as awful as slavery, hopefully some day all of you crazies realize the ideologies you support. And no, that "little voice" in your head that you're talking about can be any variety of things, anything EXCEPT chemicals. Chemicals can't talk, son, nor can they make you think you're hearing things.
Most of your posts were alright, the anecdotes were unneeded, but this is just flat out wrong. The only reason you CAN hear things is because of chemicals. If you want speak of neurobiology you should at least be versed in it.
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Skypig sounds like a troll, but if not I'm glad he has found a faith that satisfies his spiritual longing! 
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This thread will always go on and on like every discussion about religion. I think some if not all of them are violent, the irony is their beliefs state that harming others are wrong. These religious things probably are stories made up by ancient people to mind control large groups of people, to gain an easier control and access to people to fulfill their own desire for conquest. More like making people mindless sheeps. Atheists are less likely to harm others and more likely to make peace. I don't blame people having religion ingrained within them as there is no choice since young, but c'mon people are stupid to fully believe the god that they have not seen until the mental state that its right to attack others, trying to convert others, can't convert = kill etc. Atheists ftw and will always be victimized lol!
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On January 11 2010 17:28 FieryBalrog wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2010 16:55 pubbanana wrote:On January 11 2010 15:44 FieryBalrog wrote:On January 10 2010 11:42 pubbanana wrote:
LOL at the atheists and science-worshippers. Sure, if we eliminate all religion we can get rid of all that's wrong in the world. Oh wait, I forgot that Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Castro, etc. were all devout worshippers of God who didn't massacre innocent members of religious minorities.
Nothing those people did was in the name of atheism. One has to be a little more sophisticated than that in addressing the issue. In particular, the idea of God being dead, of the complete freedom afforded by the lack of any foundational morality, the idea that humans were vessels to be molded by man, and not inherently endowed with rights and duties by a Creator; these were distinctly made possible by atheist belief systems such as communism. In such belief systems, humans had no instrinsic worth (why should they? The idea that humans have intrinsic worth comes via religion) and were acceptable sacrifices for the State (ultimately, both Hitler and Lenin met by way of Hegel; the State was supreme). Whatever the faults of religion, of which there are many, its impossible to deny that we arrived at the ideas of the sacred inviolability of the individual, the inherent human rights afforded to us all, by way of religion. That's simply how those ideas were arrived at. The idea of all men being equal and guaranteed certain freedoms comes through religion. Any atheist not living in denial (including myself) needs to come to grips with that. I strongly disagree with every single sentence you typed. OK cool
Well, as long as you're okay with it.
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On January 12 2010 15:22 T-P-S wrote:
I'm a little confused on your position. You've extensively quoted the bible, but you believe that religion has destroyed and covered the truth of god. How do you know that the bible isn't simply a byproduct of flawed religion? Has everything 'true' that you know about god been told to you by voices in your head, or do you get information out of books that carry on solely through 'empty tradition'?
You're confused because you assume that the Bible "came" from religion...it didn't. The Bible is a collection of witnessings recorded by various prophets/people/followers of Christ; many of the Bible's books have been confirmed by other, separate sources like the Dead Sea scrolls. Therefore you can't dispute the validity of the writings that the Bible contains, any more than you can dispute the written records of people who suffered through the Holocaust; written records based on personal witness are considered strong evidence even by today's standards, dude.
Religion was "built" onto the Bible and was eventually blown so out of proportion that people cared more about following random traditions associated with "religion" than they cared about actually seeking God and discovering Him for themselves. This is why you see people that go to church one Sunday, but the rest of the week they pretend like God doesn't exist and do whatever they want. They don't even believe, much less have faith and experience in God - you can thank RELIGION for doing that. Religion provided an arbitrary structure to serving God and basically "told" people how they should go about seeking God and such, sometimes in ways that were completely contradictory to the Bible. Religion has produced so many different branches and divisions of so-called "Christians" it would make your head spin to keep track of them all. Religion divided up the followers of God and set them against each other; why do you think religion gets such a bad rap nowadays? It's because it's not even about God anymore and most "religious" people don't even know God - they're just interested in fighting amongst themselves about "whose religion is better/right/etc." and that's all they care about. The true faith, the experience, and the happiness has all been left behind. That's why I dislike religion; it rotted out the insides of what started as a beautiful, free chance at eternal happiness and salvation for everyone through God, and turned it into a mechanized machine of empty traditions and meaningless rituals. Oftentimes religion transgresses what the Bible explicitly teaches, which means that religion has nothing to do with the Bible's messages and witnessings; religion is just a human construct that ended up distorting and defiling the true faith in God, making it harder and harder for people to find that true faith.
And I'm not sure where you're getting "voices in your head" - I never claimed that I have voices in my head that tell me everything; I responded to someone's comment about voices that could be different things. As I said before I know God exists through my own experiences and things that I've witnessed in my life and in the lives of others.
On January 12 2010 15:22 T-P-S wrote:
What would you say if I told you that I knew with total certainty, that god did not exist and that you telling me otherwise only expresses your ignorance? I can provide whatever reasoning that you have used to fill in the obvious logical gaps in the statement.
If you said that, I'd know that you were lying because you DON'T know with total certainty that God doesn't exist. Don't even bother trying to back it up - not by the laws of science, not by the laws of logic, and not by the laws of any rational human school of thought can you claim that you know that with certainty; that's a belief for which you have absolutely no evidence, and both of us know that. I'm telling you that I have "evidence" for my belief in God, but I will not pretend to be able to MAKE you believe because I know I can't. As I said before, there were people in the Bible who didn't believe in God even after He had performed miracle after miracle right in their face. Thus, I know that even if you had experienced everything I have and seen all the things that I have, you still might not believe.
On January 12 2010 15:22 T-P-S wrote:
And furthermore along that line of though, I assume that you consider god from a monotheistic point of view. How do you know that the hindu gods and goddesses don't exist? What would you say if I told you that I know for certain that they do exist? That denying their existence is like denying the vision of your own hands (your example - which is also flawed), and that this denial has doomed you?
I don't know for certain that Hindu gods and goddesses don't exist; in fact I would be perfectly willing to accept that they DO exist. The Bible mentions many different gods that various people worshiped in those times (Baal, Chemosh, etc.) and never said that they were "fake." Various events in the Bible show that other gods were just powerless compared to the Lord God as they could not do the same things nor resist the power of God when it came against them. Also, Christ himself said "I am the way, the truth, and the life" and "he that goeth not in by the door, the same is a thief and a liar." Basically, Jesus warned his followers that the one way to true happiness and salvation lies with God; the one true God and no other. Do other gods exist? I don't know; they certainly could. Are those other gods worth going after? Of course not - they can't provide salvation and the happiness that the Lord God gives. Christ also said "Take heed that ye be not decieved; for many shall arise in my name, saying, 'I am Christ.' Follow not after them." Here he warns that we should not go after the prophets/gods/ that will come AFTER Jesus himself.
On January 12 2010 15:22 T-P-S wrote:
This is the part that makes me suspect trolling. What about drugs with proven psychological side effects? What about drugs that are proven to reduce the effects of psychological ailments like schizophrenia? These are just chemicals affecting other chemicals.
Don't suspect trolling - "psychological side effects" are not even understood by today's scientists. Neurobiology and neuroscience are trying to figure those things out, but they're not anywhere close to understanding what those "effects" really are - if they were, they could fix and treat those disorders, which they can't...instead they just shoot those people full of more drugs and hope that it fixes them, which it doesn't. Again, "chemicals affecting chemicals" don't make you hear voices, nor do they "talk" to you. And drugs have been used for hundreds of years to put people in unstable mindsets that can mess them up really bad; I had a college professor that told us about a friend who was messed up for life after taking a hit of acid and "going through a trip" that messed him up for the rest of his life. It was so bad the professor didn't want to tell us the details. I still maintain that you're just letting "demons" into your head when you do that - you wanna put your mind into a weakened state where it can't fight off that stuff, go ahead and have fun. You'll mess yourself up. Biblical descriptions of people "with demons" or "possessed by devils" could be very accurately applied to some of the weird conditions you see people in today. As to the exact nature of what demons actually are and how they operate, I'm not sure; I know they exist and I've talked to people who have seen way freakier things than I have from that regard.
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On January 13 2010 00:55 skypig wrote:
The Bible is a collection of witnessings recorded by various prophets/people/followers of Christ; many of the Bible's books have been confirmed by other, separate sources like the Dead Sea scrolls.
The majority of the texts that comprise the Dead Sea scrolls are non-canonical books that claim to be the word of God our Father (who art in Heaven thy Kingdom Come thy Will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven). Clearly, those texts are the creation of Satan. That these Satanic texts were found next to Biblical texts should make us doubt the truth of those Biblical texts. Praise YHWH, we need to remove those tainted books from the Bible.
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On January 13 2010 01:22 Mindcrime wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2010 00:55 skypig wrote:
The Bible is a collection of witnessings recorded by various prophets/people/followers of Christ; many of the Bible's books have been confirmed by other, separate sources like the Dead Sea scrolls. The majority of the texts that comprise the Dead Sea scrolls are non-canonical books that claim to be the word of God our Father (who art in Heaven thy Kingdom Come thy Will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven). Clearly, those texts are the creation of Satan. That these Satanic texts were found next to Biblical texts should make us doubt the truth of those Biblical texts. Praise YHWH, we need to remove those tainted books from the Bible.
40% of the Dead Sea scroll material corresponds exactly to books that were already found in the Bible, which from a logical standpoint adds more validity and weight to the witnessing already in the Bible. The other 60% of the material was not "canonical" in the sense that it was not actually material directly FROM the Bible, but many of these "un-canonical" scrolls still describe the laws, customs, and traditions of the Jews. And the JEWS, my friend, were the people of God as written in the Old Testament. So yeah, you're right in the sense that not all the scrolls are "directly" canonical. Unfortunately for your argument, however, these scrolls describe the customs and habits of the PEOPLE that were talked about by CANONICAL texts; they provide indirect support for the topics and issues mentioned in canonical texts.
In other words, the un-canonical scrolls in no way challenge the canonical texts, nor do they contradict them; in fact, some of them actually give more detailed descriptions of events that were described IN THE BIBLE ("canonical") like the building of the Second Temple. That's more indirect support; in case you're wondering, that actually ADDS credibility to the Bible rather than detract credibility. You see, it's considered a GOOD thing if a single source of knowledge can be even partially confirmed by other separate sources - that's exactly the case with the Bible and the Dead Sea scrolls; some of the scrolls provide direct support by exactly confirming the books of the bible, while others provide indirect support by describing details of events, customs, and laws that are already covered in the canonical books.
So no - your argument doesn't stand. It seems like you were joking with the Satanist comments and thus you probably weren't that serious about the rest of your argument. You didn't really make an effort to give me a decent run for my money with an argument like this, but hey, I like busting up trashy logic anyway. Thanks.
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It would appear that the Great Deceiver has deceived you, my friend.
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"Chemicals can't talk, son, nor can they make you think you're hearing things."
Uh yes they can, and they do. Chemical imbalances can lead to all kinds of mental problems. The only reason why your brain works at all is because it has a bunch of chemicals moving around at all times, which are how neurons signal one another and this is how your brain works. This kind of ignorance is exactly why everyone should be forced to take basic science classes.
"The Bible mentions many different gods that various people worshiped in those times (Baal, Chemosh, etc.) and never said that they were "fake.""
Deuteronomy 20
16 However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the LORD your God has commanded you. 18 Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the LORD your God.
Maybe they're not fake, but it seems like worshipping other gods is somehow wrong.
skypig, how many adulterers have you stoned? The Lord your God commands you to do so.
"I admit that miracles can't make you believe - there were crippled men in the Bible who had their legs instantly healed by Jesus and yet, they got up, walked away, and never looked back and gave praise to God; they were just glad to have their legs back. Just know that miracles do happen; I have experienced them, others I know and talk to have experienced them, and all followers of Christ have directly experienced God's presence and guidance themselves.
So yes, I know that God exists. No, I can't run an experiment or derive a calculus equation that explicitly proves it to your face, but then again, since when did the entirety of truth reside within scientific constructs? Since never. Scientific biases and Richard Dawkins' ramblings don't change the fact that every day of my life, I experience God's mercy and power, and I have such a powerful, filling happiness in my life that I wish everyone else could have it. Unfortunately, I know this will not happen; the Bible explicitly states that there will be those who will willfully remain ignorant of God's truth. I hate to think about it, but I know that's the way it has to be. I just hope that people start thinking and praying and opening their eyes that so often remain forced shut. There is a God. The Bible is true. Those who witnessed God's work and Christ's work put their witnessing into the Bible, and anyone who denies this has no one to blame but their own doubt and ignorance. I find it funny that people even try to challenge it when I know and feel every day that it is the truth, and that truth sets me free from all the trash that so many people in this world have to put up with. Again, I just wish that everyone else could be set free as well."
LOL set free. There is nothing more constricting than religion. And you know that God exists, yet you can't even provide a modicum of evidence. The bible explicitly states to hate gays and seems to allow for incest, although buttsex is disallowed.
The miracles make the stories even more outlandish. If you are looking towards any of the miracles as a basis for the foundation of your belief, you are a very gullible person. Do you actually believe that Jesus put mud on some guy's eyes and they could actually see? Perhaps the stories are all metaphors. I could understand and accept that. But most believers think that these are literal truths. None of the miracles were even remotely possible back then and even now, they can barely be reproduced by scientific advances.
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I'm sure atheists pride themselves in being level-headed and sophisticated people. Why then do you guys go out of your way to be condescending to us poor blinded souls, especially considering it takes NO effort to be a devout atheist? I would personally enjoy not having to worry about anything besides my stomach, bank account, and global warming. It's also so much easier to ridicule other guys when you have nothing to defend. Unfortunately, I can't deal with the occasional feeling that the universe feels a little too well orderly and consistent, and thinking that there might be a designer, and that it'd be pretty important to find out about him if there was one.
So just what do I have to lose? I can afford to do a little less killing, stealing, lying, adultery, etc. I can afford to make myself a kinder and more compassionate person. I can even afford to be a bit narrow-minded and being called an idiot. Most importantly, I can afford to have you atheists be right and I be wrong: at least I tried.
btw I'm i no wise saying thing all/any religious views are completely valid/moral or endorsing everything done in the name of religion. I'm just saying that paying attention to spirituality is not, as you claim, an exercise in futility.
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On January 13 2010 00:55 skypig wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2010 15:22 T-P-S wrote:
What would you say if I told you that I knew with total certainty, that god did not exist and that you telling me otherwise only expresses your ignorance? I can provide whatever reasoning that you have used to fill in the obvious logical gaps in the statement. If you said that, I'd know that you were lying because you DON'T know with total certainty that God doesn't exist. Don't even bother trying to back it up - not by the laws of science, not by the laws of logic, and not by the laws of any rational human school of thought can you claim that you know that with certainty; that's a belief for which you have absolutely no evidence, and both of us know that. I'm telling you that I have "evidence" for my belief in God, but I will not pretend to be able to MAKE you believe because I know I can't. As I said before, there were people in the Bible who didn't believe in God even after He had performed miracle after miracle right in their face. Thus, I know that even if you had experienced everything I have and seen all the things that I have, you still might not believe.
If you said that, I'd know that you were lying because you DON'T know with total certainty that I don't know that god doesn't exist. Don't even bother trying to back it up - not by the laws of science, not by the laws of logic, and not by the laws of any rational human school of thought can you claim that you know that I don't know that there is no god with certainty; that's a belief for which you have absolutely no evidence, and both of us know that. I'm telling you that I have "evidence" for my lack of belief in god, but I will not pretend to be able to MAKE you cease believing because I know I can't. I know that even if you had experienced everything I have and seen all the things that I have, you still might cling to belief.
This is what I meant when I said that I could provide the same faulty argumentation that you've been using for any claim. If you argue that it's impossible to deny the knowledge that someone else possesses, you surrender the basis for making any claims whatsoever.
It makes exactly as much sense to claim an absolute fact as it does to claim the lack of that fact - none.
Show nested quote +On January 12 2010 15:22 T-P-S wrote:
And furthermore along that line of though, I assume that you consider god from a monotheistic point of view. How do you know that the hindu gods and goddesses don't exist? What would you say if I told you that I know for certain that they do exist? That denying their existence is like denying the vision of your own hands (your example - which is also flawed), and that this denial has doomed you? I don't know for certain that Hindu gods and goddesses don't exist; in fact I would be perfectly willing to accept that they DO exist.
But you do not accept that they exist in the form that the hindu religion presents them. You only accept them as some kind of lesser gods to yours. This isn't what the hindu gods are according to hinduism, and as such do you not actually accept their existence as hindu texts teach. You cannot deny that they are all-powerful and still accept their existence. If I tell you that they are the only gods with any power and that I know this as unequivocal truth, you cannot deny my knowledge of the fact without admitting that your own knowledge is fallible.
Show nested quote +On January 12 2010 15:22 T-P-S wrote:
This is the part that makes me suspect trolling. What about drugs with proven psychological side effects? What about drugs that are proven to reduce the effects of psychological ailments like schizophrenia? These are just chemicals affecting other chemicals.
Don't suspect trolling - "psychological side effects" are not even understood by today's scientists. Neurobiology and neuroscience are trying to figure those things out, but they're not anywhere close to understanding what those "effects" really are - if they were, they could fix and treat those disorders, which they can't...instead they just shoot those people full of more drugs and hope that it fixes them, which it doesn't. Again, "chemicals affecting chemicals" don't make you hear voices, nor do they "talk" to you. And drugs have been used for hundreds of years to put people in unstable mindsets that can mess them up really bad; I had a college professor that told us about a friend who was messed up for life after taking a hit of acid and "going through a trip" that messed him up for the rest of his life. It was so bad the professor didn't want to tell us the details. I still maintain that you're just letting "demons" into your head when you do that - you wanna put your mind into a weakened state where it can't fight off that stuff, go ahead and have fun. You'll mess yourself up. Biblical descriptions of people "with demons" or "possessed by devils" could be very accurately applied to some of the weird conditions you see people in today. As to the exact nature of what demons actually are and how they operate, I'm not sure; I know they exist and I've talked to people who have seen way freakier things than I have from that regard.
So far you've been reasonable, but if you're going to ignore scientific evidence directly contradicting your position, let me know now so that I don't have to waste time trying to make any logical arguments. Specific psychological processes don't need to be completely understood to see that certain chemical neural stimuli produce expected psychological changes.
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On January 13 2010 07:28 Savant wrote:
I'm sure atheists pride themselves in being level-headed and sophisticated people. Why then do you guys go out of your way to be condescending to us poor blinded souls, especially considering it takes NO effort to be a devout atheist? I would personally enjoy not having to worry about anything besides my stomach, bank account, and global warming. It's also so much easier to ridicule other guys when you have nothing to defend. Unfortunately, I can't deal with the occasional feeling that the universe feels a little too well orderly and consistent, and thinking that there might be a designer, and that it'd be pretty important to find out about him if there was one.
So just what do I have to lose? I can afford to do a little less killing, stealing, lying, adultery, etc. I can afford to make myself a kinder and more compassionate person. I can even afford to be a bit narrow-minded and being called an idiot. Most importantly, I can afford to have you atheists be right and I be wrong: at least I tried.
btw I'm i no wise saying thing all/any religious views are completely valid/moral or endorsing everything done in the name of religion. I'm just saying that paying attention to spirituality is not, as you claim, an exercise in futility.
Atheism has nothing to do with wanting your life to be more simple. It has nothing to do with your attitude. It has nothing to do with wanting anything, and it has nothing to do with the type of person you are. There are countless negative stereotypes assigned to one simple concept - the belief that there are no gods. It is nothing else. It doesn't matter what leads to that belief nor what results from it - those are not important to the concept of atheism. Atheism doesn't claim that paying attention to spirituality is an exercise in futility any more than discussing a book of fiction is. Just because you believe that a book isn't true doesn't mean that you can't derive pleasure or insight from discussing its contents.
If you can't shake the feeling that everything you perceive was created by some greater being, why do you make the illogical jump to the assumption that this being has to be god? Why not simply another, greater mind than yours? Religion has filled in your uncertainty with an unreasonable answer for which there is no evidence or support.
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On January 13 2010 07:28 Savant wrote:
I'm sure atheists pride themselves in being level-headed and sophisticated people. Why then do you guys go out of your way to be condescending to us poor blinded souls, especially considering it takes NO effort to be a devout atheist? I would personally enjoy not having to worry about anything besides my stomach, bank account, and global warming. It's also so much easier to ridicule other guys when you have nothing to defend. Unfortunately, I can't deal with the occasional feeling that the universe feels a little too well orderly and consistent, and thinking that there might be a designer, and that it'd be pretty important to find out about him if there was one.
So just what do I have to lose? I can afford to do a little less killing, stealing, lying, adultery, etc. I can afford to make myself a kinder and more compassionate person. I can even afford to be a bit narrow-minded and being called an idiot. Most importantly, I can afford to have you atheists be right and I be wrong: at least I tried.
btw I'm i no wise saying thing all/any religious views are completely valid/moral or endorsing everything done in the name of religion. I'm just saying that paying attention to spirituality is not, as you claim, an exercise in futility.
Actually, atheism is not a belief that there are no gods. It's just a lack of a belief in a god. There's a distinction. And I need more than a vaguely described "feeling" to even come close to considering that there might be a creator.
I enjoy living my life without worrying about what happens after, because there is no after. You can continue to spend a few hours a week in a building with other like-minded people so that you can pretend that everyone who disagrees with you will be punished for eternity by fire while you float around playing a harp, without a single shred of evidence for either one. And scientists have plenty to defend. Despite the overwhelming evidence, relatively simple concepts like global warming and evolution have to be defended by scientists who spend their entire lives studying these phenomena by people who probably haven't even visited the wiki page for these things.
I am proud to say that I have done no killing, maybe some stealing, some lying, no adultery as an atheist. I am a relatively kind and compassionate person. I can afford to be a bit narrow-minded and be called an idiot. I can afford to have you be right and me wrong, but at least I have at least some proof behind my assertions. Nothing about your religious beliefs makes you a better person. You are aware that states with larger religious populations tend to have higher subscriptions to Playboy magazine? You do know that there have been several prominent politicians that claim religious backgrounds that have been caught for adultery? You are aware that many priests in the Catholic church have been caught for sodomizing boys, which is not only illegal, but denounced by the bible you believe in? And the old testament is full of debauchery? In fact, there's a story where two daughters get their father drunk and become pregnant by him. Incestuous adultery, I can't wait to teach my children about the bible.
I can easily make stuff up and claim that it's true, based on my "feelings". But, the onus would be on me, as it is on you right now.
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On January 13 2010 06:30 ghostWriter wrote:
Uh yes they can, and they do. Chemical imbalances can lead to all kinds of mental problems. The only reason why your brain works at all is because it has a bunch of chemicals moving around at all times, which are how neurons signal one another and this is how your brain works. This kind of ignorance is exactly why everyone should be forced to take basic science classes.
I'm currently a junior-year biochemistry major at UCSD; I know what chemicals can and can't do. Unfortunately I also know how very limited we are in terms of understanding exactly WHAT chemicals "translate" into once their functions are completed. Any college-level text will tell you where the gaps lie in our understanding of not just the brain, but of evolutionary genetics, gene expression, cellular function, and all sorts of chemical mechanisms.
In other words, NO, we don't know what it all does, and for every new thing we discover in science, we discover ten more things that we don't quite yet know how to explain. It's the natural order of things, sorry. Again, if we knew how the brain worked like you said, we'd be able to fix all those brain disorders that our supposedly "chemicals going wrong." Yeah, right, buddy.
On January 13 2010 06:30 ghostWriter wrote:
Deuteronomy 20
16 However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the LORD your God has commanded you. 18 Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the LORD your God.
Maybe they're not fake, but it seems like worshipping other gods is somehow wrong.
skypig, how many adulterers have you stoned? The Lord your God commands you to do so.
Nice quoting out of context. This is the old testament, and these commandments were for the Jews hundreds of years ago. In the new testament Christ specifically told us that we were "free from the law" and no longer servants to sin, as in the old times.
Oh, the irony: Since you like looking up Bible passages so much to attack yourself, see if you can find the passage where Jesus protects the adulterous woman by telling the people who want to stone her, "Him that is without sin, let him cast the first stone" and then all the people walked away and Jesus told the woman "Go in peace."
Again, don't quote out of context.
On January 13 2010 06:30 ghostWriter wrote:
LOL set free. There is nothing more constricting than religion. And you know that God exists, yet you can't even provide a modicum of evidence. The bible explicitly states to hate gays and seems to allow for incest, although buttsex is disallowed.
The miracles make the stories even more outlandish. If you are looking towards any of the miracles as a basis for the foundation of your belief, you are a very gullible person. Do you actually believe that Jesus put mud on some guy's eyes and they could actually see? Perhaps the stories are all metaphors. I could understand and accept that. But most believers think that these are literal truths. None of the miracles were even remotely possible back then and even now, they can barely be reproduced by scientific advances.
I can't provide evidence that you will believe because for you to believe something, it has to be experimentally replicated a hundred times, printed out on a piece of paper, graphed, and explicitly shown by an equation and then slapped into your face. I like how you limit truth to being anything that science tangibly produces. I guess by your warped logic, everything that we haven't discovered yet through science is "untrue" and "outlandish" because we haven't proven it yet by science; then when we DO discover it, it suddenly "becomes truth." I find it hard to believe that you are this ignorant of your ignorance as to what defines truth.
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On January 12 2010 14:11 reit wrote:
That little voice in your head that you speak to is the product of chemicals instead your brain.
Your post is also the product of chemicals inside your brain-
Water is just a bunch of protons, neutrons and electrons arranged a certain way. I guess its a fake as well.
See how stupid such a reductive, silly approach is? Everything can be understood in terms of constituent parts. That doesn't answer the question of why those constituent parts exist, or interact in certain ways, or such. Science is purely description and manipulation of natural phenomena. Science cannot answer questions of epistemology. The philosophy behind science doesn't even ALLOW statements like the one you made; "Voices in your head are just chemicals, ipso facto they don't mean anything."
I wish my fellow atheists were a little more sophisticated than some of the 8th-grade level crap on display here.
Religion is as awful as slavery, hopefully some day all of you crazies realize the ideologies you support.
Bigotry.
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EPT
