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I have a little rant about Dragon Age I'd like to get some discussion from, if anyone is interested. It's a little wall of text, but I thought it was interesting as it related to many other dialogue driven games as well.
+ Show Spoiler +So I'm roughly 12 hours into Dragon Age right now, and I think it's a fantastic game. I'm probably going to run through it several more times, and it'll probably take me all summer. Though I have this gripe with it and I wanted to know if anyone else felt like it was fair criticism.
Bioware has always been believed that an RPG should be about you, the player taking a real role as a character both in the story and gameplay, and shaping events, relationships, and the world around you. Several of the developers have even claimed that RPGs who do not offer these aspects shouldn't even be called RPGs.
Fair enough, after all -- the conversational game play, moral dilemmas, and consequences in Dragon Age are a large part in why it's so enjoyable. But has anyone else noticed how forced this philosophy is in Dragon Age and previous Bioware games? I'll explain.
Early on in Dragon Age, regardless of your character's origin, you are largely the one that needs to prove himself in the beginning. After doing so, you meet the Grey Wardens and its more experienced members who guide you into becoming one of them. However, when the main quest truly begins, your veteran companion, Alistar, admits that he isn't comfortable being in a leadership position and would be more comfortable following your orders. This is a pretty powerful decision, but it's an obvious tool that Bioware used to get you to be the center of attention for a game that requires it.
And that's fine. Although that sounds forced, it's not an issue as they made it somewhat believable with their often excellent writing. The problem is what comes as a result.
You are traveling with a party of companions. These party members were not willing to join your adventure until you both accepted each others personalities, goals, and values. It's a very well done element and creates a real sense of the role playing immersion that Bioware so often talks about. However, after they are in your party, they take a significantly downward dip into becoming nothing but talking statues.
For example, an early party member I recruited was a girl named Leliana. She joined my party because she noticed the compassion and mercy I displayed, and also because her religion guided her to help me take on the evil of the land. She was strong willed, compassionate, and I looked forward to uncovering what she'd bring to my party. I enjoyed these types of situations in the game a great deal. Now, as I'd come across more moral dilemmas during quests and interactions with other NPCs, the rest of my party would often chime in their own advice, opinion, or reaction to my choices -- as real characters should. Awesome.
But has anyone noticed that the characters actually don't do anything? If I do something god awful or despicably evil, sure enough a character like Leliana is going to be highly offended and tell me she disapproves. And of course I'll gain or lose points of favor afterward. But never has a character within my party raised a finger against me. And who am I? According to my story I was just some commoner Dwarf rogue who's a fairly green member of the Grey Wardens and still uncertain of the cultures around him. Hell, I wouldn't even accomplish anything by myself in combat. And yet when I decide to kill a child in cold blood, my most pious and good willing party member who Bioware dedicated a great back story to, can only say, "I can't believe you did such a thing!"
Talk about a huge break of immersion.
Why am I some all powerful god of decision making? It's been a decade of these games where you're just this untouchable force. How am I supposed to believe I'm with other characters when all they can do is give me approval/disapproval. Does anyone else realize how much more amazing these situations could be if after making a decision, Leliana goes through a powerful dialogue and points her bow at my face, leaves my party, and gets me banned from local chantries?
How about a hug or something after doing something great? My god, any sort of animation would be reassuring that I'm an actual being in this amazing well thought up world.
Like I said, it's still a fantastic game, and I personally love it. But does anyone else think it's about time we get an update on this tried and true dialogue system? It's been far too long.
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On June 07 2010 16:36 eMbrace wrote:I have a little rant about Dragon Age I'd like to get some discussion from, if anyone is interested. It's a little wall of text, but I thought it was interesting as it related to many other dialogue driven games as well. + Show Spoiler +So I'm roughly 12 hours into Dragon Age right now, and I think it's a fantastic game. I'm probably going to run through it several more times, and it'll probably take me all summer. Though I have this gripe with it and I wanted to know if anyone else felt like it was fair criticism.
Bioware has always been believed that an RPG should be about you, the player taking a real role as a character both in the story and gameplay, and shaping events, relationships, and the world around you. Several of the developers have even claimed that RPGs who do not offer these aspects shouldn't even be called RPGs.
Fair enough, after all -- the conversational game play, moral dilemmas, and consequences in Dragon Age are a large part in why it's so enjoyable. But has anyone else noticed how forced this philosophy is in Dragon Age and previous Bioware games? I'll explain.
Early on in Dragon Age, regardless of your character's origin, you are largely the one that needs to prove himself in the beginning. After doing so, you meet the Grey Wardens and its more experienced members who guide you into becoming one of them. However, when the main quest truly begins, your veteran companion, Alistar, admits that he isn't comfortable being in a leadership position and would be more comfortable following your orders. This is a pretty powerful decision, but it's an obvious tool that Bioware used to get you to be the center of attention for a game that requires it.
And that's fine. Although that sounds forced, it's not an issue as they made it somewhat believable with their often excellent writing. The problem is what comes as a result.
You are traveling with a party of companions. These party members were not willing to join your adventure until you both accepted each others personalities, goals, and values. It's a very well done element and creates a real sense of the role playing immersion that Bioware so often talks about. However, after they are in your party, they take a significantly downward dip into becoming nothing but talking statues.
For example, an early party member I recruited was a girl named Leliana. She joined my party because she noticed the compassion and mercy I displayed, and also because her religion guided her to help me take on the evil of the land. She was strong willed, compassionate, and I looked forward to uncovering what she'd bring to my party. I enjoyed these types of situations in the game a great deal. Now, as I'd come across more moral dilemmas during quests and interactions with other NPCs, the rest of my party would often chime in their own advice, opinion, or reaction to my choices -- as real characters should. Awesome.
But has anyone noticed that the characters actually don't do anything? If I do something god awful or despicably evil, sure enough a character like Leliana is going to be highly offended and tell me she disapproves. And of course I'll gain or lose points of favor afterward. But never has a character within my party raised a finger against me. And who am I? According to my story I was just some commoner Dwarf rogue who's a fairly green member of the Grey Wardens and still uncertain of the cultures around him. Hell, I wouldn't even accomplish anything by myself in combat. And yet when I decide to kill a child in cold blood, my most pious and good willing party member who Bioware dedicated a great back story to, can only say, "I can't believe you did such a thing!"
Talk about a huge break of immersion.
Why am I some all powerful god of decision making? It's been a decade of these games where you're just this untouchable force. How am I supposed to believe I'm with other characters when all they can do is give me approval/disapproval. Does anyone else realize how much more amazing these situations could be if after making a decision, Leliana goes through a powerful dialogue and points her bow at my face, leaves my party, and gets me banned from local chantries?
How about a hug or something after doing something great? My god, any sort of animation would be reassuring that I'm an actual being in this amazing well thought up world.
Like I said, it's still a fantastic game, and I personally love it. But does anyone else think it's about time we get an update on this tried and true dialogue system? It's been far too long.
I can definitely relate to those complaints. I have bigger complaints with the game myself, but every issue I have with dragon age, I have with almost all RPGs.
I just feel like most RPGs try to sell themselves as something they aren't. The illusion of non-linearity (if they stopped trying to sell it like it wasn't linear, then I got np) accompanied by the never ending Chain O' Quests really kill it for me. But maybe it's just because I've played 100 of em and I'm getting older. Sort of like the mystery novel enthusiest who has read so many that nothing is suprising, or new, and instead becomes almost mechanical.
That isn't to say that Dragon Age isn't my favorite RPG since BG2
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It's a question about balancing immersion and gameplay. Also, since you've played 12hours you might not have gotten to some of the good dialogue stuff though. Like the romances, like a party member challenging you for leadership of the group, members leaving the group, potential members being killed etc. Won't go into specifics... but that sounds like some of what you're looking for^^
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I like this game i've played quite a bit but it crashes to the desktop often so I quit playing it. Apperently the fix is to roll back to older catalysts drivers and that's just bs imo
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On June 07 2010 16:36 eMbrace wrote:I have a little rant about Dragon Age I'd like to get some discussion from, if anyone is interested. It's a little wall of text, but I thought it was interesting as it related to many other dialogue driven games as well. + Show Spoiler +So I'm roughly 12 hours into Dragon Age right now, and I think it's a fantastic game. I'm probably going to run through it several more times, and it'll probably take me all summer. Though I have this gripe with it and I wanted to know if anyone else felt like it was fair criticism.
Bioware has always been believed that an RPG should be about you, the player taking a real role as a character both in the story and gameplay, and shaping events, relationships, and the world around you. Several of the developers have even claimed that RPGs who do not offer these aspects shouldn't even be called RPGs.
Fair enough, after all -- the conversational game play, moral dilemmas, and consequences in Dragon Age are a large part in why it's so enjoyable. But has anyone else noticed how forced this philosophy is in Dragon Age and previous Bioware games? I'll explain.
Early on in Dragon Age, regardless of your character's origin, you are largely the one that needs to prove himself in the beginning. After doing so, you meet the Grey Wardens and its more experienced members who guide you into becoming one of them. However, when the main quest truly begins, your veteran companion, Alistar, admits that he isn't comfortable being in a leadership position and would be more comfortable following your orders. This is a pretty powerful decision, but it's an obvious tool that Bioware used to get you to be the center of attention for a game that requires it.
And that's fine. Although that sounds forced, it's not an issue as they made it somewhat believable with their often excellent writing. The problem is what comes as a result.
You are traveling with a party of companions. These party members were not willing to join your adventure until you both accepted each others personalities, goals, and values. It's a very well done element and creates a real sense of the role playing immersion that Bioware so often talks about. However, after they are in your party, they take a significantly downward dip into becoming nothing but talking statues.
For example, an early party member I recruited was a girl named Leliana. She joined my party because she noticed the compassion and mercy I displayed, and also because her religion guided her to help me take on the evil of the land. She was strong willed, compassionate, and I looked forward to uncovering what she'd bring to my party. I enjoyed these types of situations in the game a great deal. Now, as I'd come across more moral dilemmas during quests and interactions with other NPCs, the rest of my party would often chime in their own advice, opinion, or reaction to my choices -- as real characters should. Awesome.
But has anyone noticed that the characters actually don't do anything? If I do something god awful or despicably evil, sure enough a character like Leliana is going to be highly offended and tell me she disapproves. And of course I'll gain or lose points of favor afterward. But never has a character within my party raised a finger against me. And who am I? According to my story I was just some commoner Dwarf rogue who's a fairly green member of the Grey Wardens and still uncertain of the cultures around him. Hell, I wouldn't even accomplish anything by myself in combat. And yet when I decide to kill a child in cold blood, my most pious and good willing party member who Bioware dedicated a great back story to, can only say, "I can't believe you did such a thing!"
Talk about a huge break of immersion.
Why am I some all powerful god of decision making? It's been a decade of these games where you're just this untouchable force. How am I supposed to believe I'm with other characters when all they can do is give me approval/disapproval. Does anyone else realize how much more amazing these situations could be if after making a decision, Leliana goes through a powerful dialogue and points her bow at my face, leaves my party, and gets me banned from local chantries?
How about a hug or something after doing something great? My god, any sort of animation would be reassuring that I'm an actual being in this amazing well thought up world.
Like I said, it's still a fantastic game, and I personally love it. But does anyone else think it's about time we get an update on this tried and true dialogue system? It's been far too long.
As much as i like your rant, Leiliana would never do as you mentioned. She blindly trusts her dream about the maker and follows you along as you ally with werewolves, but if you take your evil to another level and let demons roam the world and finally upon defiling andrastes ashes. She and Wrynne betrays you / leaves you'r party.
Morrigan if you dont accept her deal, leaves your party to never return.
same with Shale, if you bring her when you go to the dwarves, if you want to preserve the forge you will need to kill shale in addition to the boss.
I think thats just about it, Sten blindly follows you about because he considers himself dead already, Morrigan just wants to hump you, Zevran is poor so he appreciates living in general regardless of whom you kill.
yea its not consistent and some times confusing, such as morrigan approving every action that spites someone while dissproving of saveing redcliffe, i mean wtf. YEA ID LIKE TO DISADVANTAGE MYSELF by killing off my human allies with nothing to gain.
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On June 07 2010 19:56 Madkipz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2010 16:36 eMbrace wrote:I have a little rant about Dragon Age I'd like to get some discussion from, if anyone is interested. It's a little wall of text, but I thought it was interesting as it related to many other dialogue driven games as well. + Show Spoiler +So I'm roughly 12 hours into Dragon Age right now, and I think it's a fantastic game. I'm probably going to run through it several more times, and it'll probably take me all summer. Though I have this gripe with it and I wanted to know if anyone else felt like it was fair criticism.
Bioware has always been believed that an RPG should be about you, the player taking a real role as a character both in the story and gameplay, and shaping events, relationships, and the world around you. Several of the developers have even claimed that RPGs who do not offer these aspects shouldn't even be called RPGs.
Fair enough, after all -- the conversational game play, moral dilemmas, and consequences in Dragon Age are a large part in why it's so enjoyable. But has anyone else noticed how forced this philosophy is in Dragon Age and previous Bioware games? I'll explain.
Early on in Dragon Age, regardless of your character's origin, you are largely the one that needs to prove himself in the beginning. After doing so, you meet the Grey Wardens and its more experienced members who guide you into becoming one of them. However, when the main quest truly begins, your veteran companion, Alistar, admits that he isn't comfortable being in a leadership position and would be more comfortable following your orders. This is a pretty powerful decision, but it's an obvious tool that Bioware used to get you to be the center of attention for a game that requires it.
And that's fine. Although that sounds forced, it's not an issue as they made it somewhat believable with their often excellent writing. The problem is what comes as a result.
You are traveling with a party of companions. These party members were not willing to join your adventure until you both accepted each others personalities, goals, and values. It's a very well done element and creates a real sense of the role playing immersion that Bioware so often talks about. However, after they are in your party, they take a significantly downward dip into becoming nothing but talking statues.
For example, an early party member I recruited was a girl named Leliana. She joined my party because she noticed the compassion and mercy I displayed, and also because her religion guided her to help me take on the evil of the land. She was strong willed, compassionate, and I looked forward to uncovering what she'd bring to my party. I enjoyed these types of situations in the game a great deal. Now, as I'd come across more moral dilemmas during quests and interactions with other NPCs, the rest of my party would often chime in their own advice, opinion, or reaction to my choices -- as real characters should. Awesome.
But has anyone noticed that the characters actually don't do anything? If I do something god awful or despicably evil, sure enough a character like Leliana is going to be highly offended and tell me she disapproves. And of course I'll gain or lose points of favor afterward. But never has a character within my party raised a finger against me. And who am I? According to my story I was just some commoner Dwarf rogue who's a fairly green member of the Grey Wardens and still uncertain of the cultures around him. Hell, I wouldn't even accomplish anything by myself in combat. And yet when I decide to kill a child in cold blood, my most pious and good willing party member who Bioware dedicated a great back story to, can only say, "I can't believe you did such a thing!"
Talk about a huge break of immersion.
Why am I some all powerful god of decision making? It's been a decade of these games where you're just this untouchable force. How am I supposed to believe I'm with other characters when all they can do is give me approval/disapproval. Does anyone else realize how much more amazing these situations could be if after making a decision, Leliana goes through a powerful dialogue and points her bow at my face, leaves my party, and gets me banned from local chantries?
How about a hug or something after doing something great? My god, any sort of animation would be reassuring that I'm an actual being in this amazing well thought up world.
Like I said, it's still a fantastic game, and I personally love it. But does anyone else think it's about time we get an update on this tried and true dialogue system? It's been far too long.
As much as i like your rant, Leiliana would never do as you mentioned. She blindly trusts her dream about the maker and follows you along as you ally with werewolves, but if you take your evil to another level and let demons roam the world and finally upon defiling andrastes ashes. She and Wrynne betrays you / leaves you'r party. Morrigan if you dont accept her deal, leaves your party to never return. same with Shale, if you bring her when you go to the dwarves, if you want to preserve the forge you will need to kill shale in addition to the boss. I think thats just about it, Sten blindly follows you about because he considers himself dead already, Morrigan just wants to hump you, Zevran is poor so he appreciates living in general regardless of whom you kill. yea its not consistent and some times confusing, such as morrigan approving every action that spites someone while dissproving of saveing redcliffe, i mean wtf. YEA ID LIKE TO DISADVANTAGE MYSELF by killing off my human allies with nothing to gain.
haha. I was trying not to spoil, but since that's not important I guess.. If you talk to Sten about the archdemon early on he'll fight you. Alistair will leave if you spare loghain. If oghren has a low approval you have to fight him. Can even finish him off if you want (I've killed everyone, lol^^)
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Also that Healer that joins from the Mage Tower will attack you along with the Guardian if you desecrate the Sacred Ashes.
So yeah some of your actions do have consequences for certain party members, but quite limited and mainly the way you complete a certain quest.
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So I finished Awakening twice last month and was pretty disappointed. It's still a good game but very short and easy. However, compared to Origins, it's roughly 70% of the price and my game time was 30% of what it was in Origins. I believe I clocked in 71 and 66 hours respectively on both my Origins characters. It was around 22 and 16 in Awakening. Not to mention I did a lot less reloading in Awakening because it was too easy.
Bioware made archers way too powerful in Awakening. Spirit warrior archers with mage and rogue (bard) support are just godly.
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thanks for the responses guys, i am obviously not too far into the game yet so i'm only discussing what has bothered me so far in the conversations.
i'm glad to hear things get a bit more dynamic down the road. i'm not asking for anything dramatic, but if a character would once in a while intervene or show some sort of reaction besides "I don't approve", I think it'd help the game a great deal
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On June 08 2010 05:13 andrewlt wrote:
So I finished Awakening twice last month and was pretty disappointed. It's still a good game but very short and easy. However, compared to Origins, it's roughly 70% of the price and my game time was 30% of what it was in Origins. I believe I clocked in 71 and 66 hours respectively on both my Origins characters. It was around 22 and 16 in Awakening. Not to mention I did a lot less reloading in Awakening because it was too easy.
Bioware made archers way too powerful in Awakening. Spirit warrior archers with mage and rogue (bard) support are just godly.
thats the whole point of awakening, you killed the archdemon and now your wadeing along in the scraps plucking up flees and doing what you want with it. what i disliked with Awakening was the constant "HAHHAH you fell into our TRAP."
and then you proceed to whip out some ubr pwnage in your undergarnments. Heck most of your old guys arent there with you, and that was the most dissapointing with it. Zevran for instance, wtf he swore to be by my side i even romanced him on my dwarf female noble, Dualwielding, Reaver, spirit warrior called MEGATRON ;D
and i mean comon, i killed Alistair and all i got for support by Loghain was a crappy axe. ;//
im thankful for the dlc, didnt buy the darkspawn one but yea awakening if you view it as a small dlc campain ultimately worth the money.
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I hate the DLC. The value is just terrible.
And the manual of focus they introduced in Awakening just proves how terrible a stat willpower is. It seems the whole purpose of the stat is a way for Bioware to waste points on your companions to artificially weaken them.
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Vatican City State1650 Posts
I apologize for the bump. I've been looking for this in other parts of the web but couldn't find it.
Does anyone have a save of their character right before the High Dragon?
With the announcement of Dragon Age 2, I decided to come back to modding. Unfortunately, I had deleted all my backup saves, and all the backups that I had uploaded were already expired.
I can test other combat mechanics, looks, and skills just fine. But I just cannot test any "vs massive boss" mechanics for my mods without spending another day going to the High Dragon encounter.
I want to finish my modding before I play through the entire game and DLCs one final time... Rather than spending time going through parts of the game that I know I'll go through again.
Can anyone upload their save game just before the High Dragon fight?
I don't care about the character background/gender/race/companions. I just need a save for me to test vs massive boss mechanics and forced deathblow mechanics for my coming mod.
Your help will be sincerely appreciated.
just zip the documents/bioware/dragon age/characters/charactername folder for me... that would be really great...
Edit: someone awesome in the DA forums agreed to do it for me.
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On June 07 2010 19:30 Patriot.dlk wrote:
I like this game i've played quite a bit but it crashes to the desktop often so I quit playing it. Apperently the fix is to roll back to older catalysts drivers and that's just bs imo
i have a nvidia chip and it still crashes for me every 2-3 hours or so
overall a great game but alot of bugs in it
i would have preferred a more linear experience (in regard to main quests) with no scaled monsters , i kind of like going back to areas you struggled with and just steamrolling them now you are higher level
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On June 08 2010 06:25 eMbrace wrote:
thanks for the responses guys, i am obviously not too far into the game yet so i'm only discussing what has bothered me so far in the conversations.
i'm glad to hear things get a bit more dynamic down the road. i'm not asking for anything dramatic, but if a character would once in a while intervene or show some sort of reaction besides "I don't approve", I think it'd help the game a great deal
I don't know if this would be spoiling you or not now, but suffice to say there are a number of moments in the OC where your companions will leave you or outright attack you should you make certain choices.
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I found DAO really disappointing. I'm not sure why it has such a strong following.
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On September 18 2010 11:26 DannyJ wrote:
I found DAO really disappointing. I'm not sure why it has such a strong following.
Yeah, i was the biggest bioware fanboy being a baldur's gate 2 fanatic (seriously played through that game + throne of bhaal at least a dozen times with a dozen different mods) and I found dragon age really meh. When I accidentally stumbled onto the sex scene with the witch I shut the game down and permanently uninstalled it, that was the last straw.
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I was playing an all-nightmare runthrough (except for the Proving battle, that shit is impossible) and I saved so much that it went past the apparent 500 save limit... so I had my first 499 saves then my current one, and when I happened to go back to another save to see if I had missed a treasure chest and saved on that older save file......
T__T
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On September 18 2010 11:32 EAGER-beaver wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2010 11:26 DannyJ wrote:
I found DAO really disappointing. I'm not sure why it has such a strong following. Yeah, i was the biggest bioware fanboy being a baldur's gate 2 fanatic (seriously played through that game + throne of bhaal at least a dozen times with a dozen different mods) and I found dragon age really meh. When I accidentally stumbled onto the sex scene with the witch I shut the game down and permanently uninstalled it, that was the last straw.
only a dozen?
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On September 18 2010 11:32 EAGER-beaver wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2010 11:26 DannyJ wrote:
I found DAO really disappointing. I'm not sure why it has such a strong following. Yeah, i was the biggest bioware fanboy being a baldur's gate 2 fanatic (seriously played through that game + throne of bhaal at least a dozen times with a dozen different mods) and I found dragon age really meh. When I accidentally stumbled onto the sex scene with the witch I shut the game down and permanently uninstalled it, that was the last straw.
This seems like a really random sentiment. So, because your character could become romantically involved with another... that made it unplayable? Or because it was a poorly done romance scene? I'm not quite sure what the complaint is unless it has something to do with cooties.
DAO was a solid game. The combat was interesting but a little too long at times. The story was solid enough to keep me entertained, although I felt the overall world wasn't overly interesting when compared to other western RPG's. I'm looking forward to #2 to see how they iron out some of the problems and expand the game. Judging from how much was improved (game play wise) from ME1 to ME2 I have faith in Bioware to make the sequel even better.
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On September 18 2010 13:25 I_Love_Bacon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2010 11:32 EAGER-beaver wrote:On September 18 2010 11:26 DannyJ wrote:
I found DAO really disappointing. I'm not sure why it has such a strong following. Yeah, i was the biggest bioware fanboy being a baldur's gate 2 fanatic (seriously played through that game + throne of bhaal at least a dozen times with a dozen different mods) and I found dragon age really meh. When I accidentally stumbled onto the sex scene with the witch I shut the game down and permanently uninstalled it, that was the last straw. DAO was a solid game. The combat was interesting but a little too long at times. The story was solid enough to keep me entertained, although I felt the overall world wasn't overly interesting when compared to other western RPG's. I'm looking forward to #2 to see how they iron out some of the problems and expand the game. Judging from how much was improved (game play wise) from ME1 to ME2 I have faith in Bioware to make the sequel even better.
Yeah i found the world of DAO pretty ho hum. I also think the fact that my own character didn't talk really took away from the experience. Every conversation my character just looked like some brain dead mute.
I agree too, that DAO2 could be a great game. Even though i didn't like the first one, it definitely had a good foundation.
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EPT
