Surprised there's no thread made for this game. I have sank in over 50hours in just a week and that's me with very few free time.
Deadlock is a unique genre, gameplay with a good mix of MOBA and hero shooter elements. Currently in limited access (very easy to get a key though)
You essentially have lane push by creeps, neutral creeps, power ups throughout the maps, Roshan, last hit/deny mechanics, hero skills and items (including active) In a 6v6 matchup with 4 lanes format, with a lot of tactics like split pushing and ganking still exist.
What makes it really stand out from third person shooter MOBA like SMITE, is that the map has verticality, and a lot of shortcuts and small objectives.
You also have very smooth mobility, eg dash jump that you need to nail the timing to execute.
Hard carry still exists and probably just as strong as any in Dota. there are items like blink dagger, refresher orbs etc. But due to the nature of shooter spacing out, and vertical space matters, play making with AOE-fest team wipe is much harder to execute but also very possible.
Interested to know how many MOBA players will migrate to deadlock. And gotta feel for games like Concord and Smite 2 that just aren't ready to compete imo.
This game looks really really bad. No fun aspects and like it was made for really sweaty players. I don't see this sticking around too tryhard and that's about all you can do.
I tried it, it's very well done, with some clever innovations. The last hitting and movement/stamina mechanics are superb.
It does have the vertical learning curve problem of DOTA/LOL in that you are at a huge disadvantage until you know the various heroes abilities, so I'm not sure I will get into it, but it was good enough I definitely want to play a few more games.
It's very, very good. They clearly aren't shying away from mechanics that most MOBAs have been trying to nix for years, instead they've doubled down into stuff like denying and having a complex map.
On September 02 2024 12:14 CicadaSC wrote: This game looks really really bad. No fun aspects and like it was made for really sweaty players. I don't see this sticking around too tryhard and that's about all you can do.
even under NDA the playerbase was growing, around 20K players under a friend list invite only system. Now the NDA is lifted and sitting around 50K - 150K concurrent players, with a limited hours queuing system.
They know what sort of playerbase they are targetting, and it actually has a very good vibe. imo less stressful than dota or cod for example.
On September 02 2024 12:14 CicadaSC wrote: This game looks really really bad. No fun aspects and like it was made for really sweaty players. I don't see this sticking around too tryhard and that's about all you can do.
even under NDA the playerbase was growing, around 20K players under a friend list invite only system. Now the NDA is lifted and sitting around 50K - 150K concurrent players, with a limited hours queuing system.
They know what sort of playerbase they are targetting, and it actually has a very good vibe. imo less stressful than dota or cod for example.
you are just clicking things and whoever has better aim wins, where is the fun in that? especially if you don't play shooters. at least in starcraft for example u can watch cool armies a-move into each other even if u suck at the game there is still some awe to it.
On September 02 2024 12:14 CicadaSC wrote: This game looks really really bad. No fun aspects and like it was made for really sweaty players. I don't see this sticking around too tryhard and that's about all you can do.
even under NDA the playerbase was growing, around 20K players under a friend list invite only system. Now the NDA is lifted and sitting around 50K - 150K concurrent players, with a limited hours queuing system.
They know what sort of playerbase they are targetting, and it actually has a very good vibe. imo less stressful than dota or cod for example.
you are just clicking things and whoever has better aim wins, where is the fun in that?
This couldn't be more wrong lmfao. It has all the strategy and depth of Dota 2 behind it. Good aim alone won't get you anywhere.
Anyway, I've been having a blast since getting my invite last week. I hope they get rid of the restricted hours ASAP. I don't want to have to wait until 2 PM to play XD.
On September 02 2024 12:14 CicadaSC wrote: This game looks really really bad. No fun aspects and like it was made for really sweaty players. I don't see this sticking around too tryhard and that's about all you can do.
From what I'm hearing it's pretty much the opposite. People are incredibly hyped for this. There is like 100k concurrent players in a invite only "beta"... that is ridiculous
The fight in the video ^ against an Enemy walker is really cool to be honest. Gave me a bit of sin & punishment vibe which was a great co-op bullet-hack'n'slash on N64 and Wii
On September 02 2024 12:14 CicadaSC wrote: This game looks really really bad. No fun aspects and like it was made for really sweaty players. I don't see this sticking around too tryhard and that's about all you can do.
even under NDA the playerbase was growing, around 20K players under a friend list invite only system. Now the NDA is lifted and sitting around 50K - 150K concurrent players, with a limited hours queuing system.
They know what sort of playerbase they are targetting, and it actually has a very good vibe. imo less stressful than dota or cod for example.
you are just clicking things and whoever has better aim wins, where is the fun in that? especially if you don't play shooters. at least in starcraft for example u can watch cool armies a-move into each other even if u suck at the game there is still some awe to it.
"Just clicking things and whoever has better aim wins" is a shallow description even of shallower (CoD, Battlefield) games, and those games are STILL fun.
It's not for you, fair enough. Same as RTS isn't for a lot of people.
Game looks fun. Seems like an interesting shooter overall. Game cycle is interesting, game length seems pretty good etc. If I was playing shooters I would try it out.
From what I can tell a typical game lasts 45 minutes? Was hoping it'd be closer to 20-30 so it's easier to squeeze a game in without too much commitment.
On September 03 2024 08:48 Firebolt145 wrote: From what I can tell a typical game lasts 45 minutes? Was hoping it'd be closer to 20-30 so it's easier to squeeze a game in without too much commitment.
Mine usually lasts around 45mins but with a lot lasting around 30mins. The lane phrase is quite short and the mid game is where the difference in team skill really shows. Game is mostly determined by 30mins mark but sometimes you do have late game carry starts their power spike.
looks interesting and i expect it will get some traction from players that enjoy both genres. unfortunately it seems aim is the underlying fundamental skill and without it youre going to be a pretty poor player no matter how good you are strategically. personally i wouldnt touch it because as much as i loved dota and was very good at it, i dont want my skill to be limited by my aim. in that sense it seems to be a harder game and i can understand why there might be concerns that the game is too niche or 'tryhard'. not many players are going to be very good at both moba and fps games
On September 03 2024 08:48 Firebolt145 wrote: From what I can tell a typical game lasts 45 minutes? Was hoping it'd be closer to 20-30 so it's easier to squeeze a game in without too much commitment.
That seems quite long, here are my previous 10 games:
On September 03 2024 15:57 evilfatsh1t wrote: looks interesting and i expect it will get some traction from players that enjoy both genres. unfortunately it seems aim is the underlying fundamental skill and without it youre going to be a pretty poor player no matter how good you are strategically. personally i wouldnt touch it because as much as i loved dota and was very good at it, i dont want my skill to be limited by my aim. in that sense it seems to be a harder game and i can understand why there might be concerns that the game is too niche or 'tryhard'. not many players are going to be very good at both moba and fps games
Aiming really isn't that important. The last-hitting/denying mechanic has you shoot a massive orb, and you know when it's coming so you can just pre-fire at it. In team fights, your abilities and items will determine who wins, not so much your aiming. I've always been terrible at games like CS and I find myself doing quite well in Deadlock.
e: what's probably more important than aiming is movement. You can dash, dash into slide, dash into jump into slide, wall jump, double jump, etc. And there are various items that give you even more movement options, either through adding stamina bars or simply allowing triple jump/double dash in the air etc. Watching a pro game, the biggest difference with my current play is their amazing movement, that'll be the skill to learn, and also something completely absent in Dota.
Perhaps my biggest struggle is that I have 4 hotkeys for abilities, 4 hotkeys for items, and then like 10 extra hotkeys for the movement/shooter aspect, which is a lot more hotkeys to manage than Dota.
1. How does it perform on more modest machines? 2. For someone who understands the MOBA basics but never got bitten by the bug would it be easy enough to pick up? 3. Is there a wide player skill range in this current release? 4. Is this a limited time thing that’ll close anytime soon?
Been hunting for some cool games for me/partner/kiddo to play and we have vastly different gaming skill levels at present.
I think this would be an ideal candidate as kiddo’s main game is Fortnite, although he has diversified a bit, and aside from RTS my main jam is shooters. My partner will be pretty bad no matter what we pick but she gives it a good go!
On September 03 2024 16:52 WombaT wrote: This looks really promising, alas I have no key!
Few questions for you folks!
1. How does it perform on more modest machines? 2. For someone who understands the MOBA basics but never got bitten by the bug would it be easy enough to pick up? 3. Is there a wide player skill range in this current release? 4. Is this a limited time thing that’ll close anytime soon?
Been hunting for some cool games for me/partner/kiddo to play and we have vastly different gaming skill levels at present.
I think this would be an ideal candidate as kiddo’s main game is Fortnite, although he has diversified a bit, and aside from RTS my main jam is shooters. My partner will be pretty bad no matter what we pick but she gives it a good go!
Cheers in advance y’all
If you have any of us on Steam we can send unlimited invites from the looks of things.
On September 03 2024 16:52 WombaT wrote: This looks really promising, alas I have no key!
Few questions for you folks!
1. How does it perform on more modest machines? 2. For someone who understands the MOBA basics but never got bitten by the bug would it be easy enough to pick up? 3. Is there a wide player skill range in this current release? 4. Is this a limited time thing that’ll close anytime soon?
Been hunting for some cool games for me/partner/kiddo to play and we have vastly different gaming skill levels at present.
I think this would be an ideal candidate as kiddo’s main game is Fortnite, although he has diversified a bit, and aside from RTS my main jam is shooters. My partner will be pretty bad no matter what we pick but she gives it a good go!
Cheers in advance y’all
If you have any of us on Steam we can send unlimited invites from the looks of things.
Got invited 3-4 times already and yet no key. Maybe they stopped or at least slowed down
On September 03 2024 16:52 WombaT wrote: This looks really promising, alas I have no key!
Few questions for you folks!
1. How does it perform on more modest machines? 2. For someone who understands the MOBA basics but never got bitten by the bug would it be easy enough to pick up? 3. Is there a wide player skill range in this current release? 4. Is this a limited time thing that’ll close anytime soon?
Been hunting for some cool games for me/partner/kiddo to play and we have vastly different gaming skill levels at present.
I think this would be an ideal candidate as kiddo’s main game is Fortnite, although he has diversified a bit, and aside from RTS my main jam is shooters. My partner will be pretty bad no matter what we pick but she gives it a good go!
Cheers in advance y’all
If you have any of us on Steam we can send unlimited invites from the looks of things.
Got invited 3-4 times already and yet no key. Maybe they stopped or at least slowed down
Did you get a message from steam? You don't need key to activate the game, just search in steam store and you should be able to download already
On September 03 2024 16:52 WombaT wrote: This looks really promising, alas I have no key!
Few questions for you folks!
1. How does it perform on more modest machines? 2. For someone who understands the MOBA basics but never got bitten by the bug would it be easy enough to pick up? 3. Is there a wide player skill range in this current release? 4. Is this a limited time thing that’ll close anytime soon?
Been hunting for some cool games for me/partner/kiddo to play and we have vastly different gaming skill levels at present.
I think this would be an ideal candidate as kiddo’s main game is Fortnite, although he has diversified a bit, and aside from RTS my main jam is shooters. My partner will be pretty bad no matter what we pick but she gives it a good go!
Cheers in advance y’all
If you have any of us on Steam we can send unlimited invites from the looks of things.
Got invited 3-4 times already and yet no key. Maybe they stopped or at least slowed down
You get an email after an invite, it can take some time to arrive.
On September 03 2024 16:52 WombaT wrote: This looks really promising, alas I have no key!
Few questions for you folks!
1. How does it perform on more modest machines? 2. For someone who understands the MOBA basics but never got bitten by the bug would it be easy enough to pick up? 3. Is there a wide player skill range in this current release? 4. Is this a limited time thing that’ll close anytime soon?
Been hunting for some cool games for me/partner/kiddo to play and we have vastly different gaming skill levels at present.
I think this would be an ideal candidate as kiddo’s main game is Fortnite, although he has diversified a bit, and aside from RTS my main jam is shooters. My partner will be pretty bad no matter what we pick but she gives it a good go!
Cheers in advance y’all
If you have any of us on Steam we can send unlimited invites from the looks of things.
Got invited 3-4 times already and yet no key. Maybe they stopped or at least slowed down
You get an email after an invite, it can take some time to arrive.
First invite was 4 days ago so either they don't want me or they considerably slowed down who gets access
On September 04 2024 07:55 CicadaSC wrote: yeah... Not my kind of game. Would be more fun if shooting was removed entirely. Just my opinion.
You mean a third person Moba but all melee? Or standard Moba?
Idk, I don't like to shoot things that are moving around so I erratically. The only shooter I can stomach is Valorant because that is more about crosshair placement.
On September 04 2024 07:55 CicadaSC wrote: yeah... Not my kind of game. Would be more fun if shooting was removed entirely. Just my opinion.
You mean a third person Moba but all melee? Or standard Moba?
Idk, I don't like to shoot things that are moving around so I erratically. The only shooter I can stomach is Valorant because that is more about crosshair placement.
I think it's fine. this is more MOBA than shooter. You can't one shot most heroes unless you got a much bigger item lead. You have to execute a combo off most of the time.
Either way this game is gonna be huge, it will capture both fps and Moba players. I actually find it easier to get into than standard moba but with just as much depth which is pretty cool.
On September 04 2024 07:55 CicadaSC wrote: yeah... Not my kind of game. Would be more fun if shooting was removed entirely. Just my opinion.
You mean a third person Moba but all melee? Or standard Moba?
Idk, I don't like to shoot things that are moving around so I erratically. The only shooter I can stomach is Valorant because that is more about crosshair placement.
I think it's fine. this is more MOBA than shooter. You can't one shot most heroes unless you got a much bigger item lead. You have to execute a combo off most of the time.
Either way this game is gonna be huge, it will capture both fps and Moba players. I actually find it easier to get into than standard moba but with just as much depth which is pretty cool.
Actually I like other shooters like halo 1 and 2 was okay but that's because of the single player. I was telling my friends deadlock is my new trigger phrase. I watched a video about how streamers and esports are ruining gaming and honestly, I feel that. Yuck 🤮
Actually maybe I will try deadlock if it has a campaign.
On September 04 2024 07:55 CicadaSC wrote: yeah... Not my kind of game. Would be more fun if shooting was removed entirely. Just my opinion.
You mean a third person Moba but all melee? Or standard Moba?
Idk, I don't like to shoot things that are moving around so I erratically. The only shooter I can stomach is Valorant because that is more about crosshair placement.
I think it's fine. this is more MOBA than shooter. You can't one shot most heroes unless you got a much bigger item lead. You have to execute a combo off most of the time.
Either way this game is gonna be huge, it will capture both fps and Moba players. I actually find it easier to get into than standard moba but with just as much depth which is pretty cool.
Actually I like other shooters like halo 1 and 2 was okay but that's because of the single player. I was telling my friends deadlock is my new trigger phrase. I watched a video about how streamers and esports are ruining gaming and honestly, I feel that. Yuck 🤮
Actually maybe I will try deadlock if it has a campaign.
i think I watched that same video, but deadlock at least doesn't put esports in their priority like stormgate
I mean it's closed Alpha. Knowing Valve, they will 100% put a big priority on esports eventually, it made them insane money in Dota 2. And if Valve doesn't do it, the community will. I guarantee as soon as some type of CM matchmaking is out, the first community hosted tournaments appear.
I can send invites to people if some are still waiting, just PM me your Steam code. Although I've also read various people on the Discord saying they've been invited but got no e-mail. It's possible that Valve have temporarily halted invites because the player count completely exploded.
Any recommendations on characters to try? As a long-term MOBA avoider and whatnot, who has decent aim (relative to other deficiencies) like who is the sorta gun nut character?
Maybe get some of us Liquidians to hop on together, could be fun! My work shift patterns actually make it much easier for me to play with folks in other time zones rather than my friends
The game marks a few characters as beginner-friendly, so probably start with those. Out of those, I would say Haze, Infernus, Seven and Bebop can all spec towards gun damage and end up steamrolling the enemy team.
Haze has a stealth kit and is supposed to gank a lot, but she also has a passive that increases her dmg the longer you shoot the same target (by applying stacks to said target on hit), so good aim works well with her.
Infernus applies fire DoTs by shooting, Seven can proc an ability that makes his weapon apply shock damage for a brief duration. Most people at lower levels will build Seven around his ultimate though and ignore the gun build.
Bebop has a combo where he can hook an enemy in, put a sticky bomb on them, then punch them away again, but his weapon is a laser that lends itself really well to gun damage builds in the lategame as well.
On September 04 2024 16:08 Laurens wrote: I mean it's closed Alpha. Knowing Valve, they will 100% put a big priority on esports eventually, it made them insane money in Dota 2. And if Valve doesn't do it, the community will. I guarantee as soon as some type of CM matchmaking is out, the first community hosted tournaments appear.
I can send invites to people if some are still waiting, just PM me your Steam code. Although I've also read various people on the Discord saying they've been invited but got no e-mail. It's possible that Valve have temporarily halted invites because the player count completely exploded.
Yay they started sending invites in waves again yesterday! Got mine too
On September 04 2024 16:08 Laurens wrote: I mean it's closed Alpha. Knowing Valve, they will 100% put a big priority on esports eventually, it made them insane money in Dota 2. And if Valve doesn't do it, the community will. I guarantee as soon as some type of CM matchmaking is out, the first community hosted tournaments appear.
I can send invites to people if some are still waiting, just PM me your Steam code. Although I've also read various people on the Discord saying they've been invited but got no e-mail. It's possible that Valve have temporarily halted invites because the player count completely exploded.
Yay they started sending invites in waves again yesterday! Got mine too
It is a good launch model if you have a successful game. Get players to advertise it for you by asking for/giving invites. While also limiting the size of each increase so that server infrastructure and other parts of the game game can keep up with the amount of players (instead of infinite queues). Also means investment in each increase is more secure since you aren't scaling for 100k simultaneous players while only hitting 1k.
On September 04 2024 18:56 Laurens wrote: The game marks a few characters as beginner-friendly, so probably start with those. Out of those, I would say Haze, Infernus, Seven and Bebop can all spec towards gun damage and end up steamrolling the enemy team.
Haze has a stealth kit and is supposed to gank a lot, but she also has a passive that increases her dmg the longer you shoot the same target (by applying stacks to said target on hit), so good aim works well with her.
Infernus applies fire DoTs by shooting, Seven can proc an ability that makes his weapon apply shock damage for a brief duration. Most people at lower levels will build Seven around his ultimate though and ignore the gun build.
Bebop has a combo where he can hook an enemy in, put a sticky bomb on them, then punch them away again, but his weapon is a laser that lends itself really well to gun damage builds in the lategame as well.
Nice info! Ima try to go in as blind as possible as it’s rare a game excites me these days, looking forward to experimenting a bit
For the enjoyment/novelty I think me actively largely eschewing MOBAs will probably enhance this game as a lot more stuff people have a decade+ playing around will be pretty fresh for me
They seem to have balanced it quite well.
I’d say, expected there to be more of a split between very mechanical heroes that shooter veterans could murder with, and more strategic/experience scaling players that MOBA vets could bring their skill set to bear with
Instead it seems you have a bunch of heroes that seem to benefit both of those skill sets quite well
I thinks it's balanced in a way that everything can be broken and you fight one broken thing with another. Nice for personal power fantasy. What I did not expect is the way it stresses me out. I thought there would be more "downtime" shooting mobs/ waves but this is pretty much all action for 30mins straight.
I played a buttload of dota and rolled onto FPSes, so on the one hand, this seems tailor-made to bring me back to Valve's embrace.
On the other hand, the #1 reason I quit Dota was that any given game could run for 15 minutes or two bloody hours, and needing to clear two hours of full lock-in every time I sat down was just flat-out absurd.
So, the million dollar question to me is where deadlock sits in terms of runtime. Can I be reasonably confident that I'll be allowed to leave in, say 30-45 minutes, or do I need to convince my wife to take the kids out of the house in order to even boot it up?
EDIT: turns out i should have read the first page. Very promising if they can keep it under 45
Yeah there's no buyback, no glyph, weaker towers (seriously, T2 and T3 towers kinda melt), less difficulty assaulting the enemy base compared to 'going highground' in dota, etc. Still not seeing any games past the 45 minute mark.
I think they'll be *trying* to put it at about 30 minutes per game, but I'm not sure it's there right now. If you've got a relatively even game then pushing into the base is really hard in my eyes (lots of angles to hold, pool regen is really strong and characters like Talon can just sit in pool and spam) and splitpushing is ridicuously effective with how good the teleporters are. I get the feeling the meta might eventually stabilise on very grindy games.
Longest game I had was 44 mins but mostly it's around 35mins. The last push in base does take some time even if you easily outcarry the opponents team.
On September 08 2024 05:18 Garrl wrote: I think they'll be *trying* to put it at about 30 minutes per game, but I'm not sure it's there right now. If you've got a relatively even game then pushing into the base is really hard in my eyes (lots of angles to hold, pool regen is really strong and characters like Talon can just sit in pool and spam) and splitpushing is ridicuously effective with how good the teleporters are. I get the feeling the meta might eventually stabilise on very grindy games.
average game length was pretty 30 minutes according to the trackers, but Valve has now broken those. I think the main issue with game length is kind of similar to DotA: lower level games often go on longer because people don't really know how to close things out and waste a lot of time instead of ending the game.
On September 08 2024 05:18 Garrl wrote: I think they'll be *trying* to put it at about 30 minutes per game, but I'm not sure it's there right now. If you've got a relatively even game then pushing into the base is really hard in my eyes (lots of angles to hold, pool regen is really strong and characters like Talon can just sit in pool and spam) and splitpushing is ridicuously effective with how good the teleporters are. I get the feeling the meta might eventually stabilise on very grindy games.
average game length was pretty 30 minutes according to the trackers, but Valve has now broken those. I think the main issue with game length is kind of similar to DotA: lower level games often go on longer because people don't really know how to close things out and waste a lot of time instead of ending the game.
Not only that but obviously there could be a big difference between a PUG and a premade team in game length. The ping mechanic is nice and all but you still need people to follow said pings
I'm not playing it, but I've seen a lot of games on stream.
I think having a group of people following commands will end games much quicker since I've seen many times where at 30ish minutes when a team gets completely killed the game is over very fast. If people don't respond accordingly however, games won't end so soon.
I've slowly climbed my way out of the trenches, and the result is that I get absolutely bodied in laning phase now lol. I try my best to not feed, catch up, and come back through teamfights but man is the laning rough. Usually too slow to get denies (playing Warden doesn't help, shit gun), and when I show myself to do some melees I instantly drop a third of my HP bar. Might swap to a hero that's better at the laning phase to have a bit of a breather now and then, taking suggestions
I am really enjoying this game. It's a cool experience to be playing something that's this polished, but is also clearly still backed by a big team in fullbore build-the-game mode. They've hotpushed half a dozen changes in just the time I've been playing, that each individually would have taken months to sort out in any other game I play. It's.... weird. I keep looking for the catch.
I assume I'm still in potato bracket, but it's interesting how well the basic gamesense from dota transfers over. I'm finding I can carry surprisingly hard just by playing the map and shoving lanes while the rest of the server gets stuck in some interminable 5 minute teamfight. I'm starting to get rekt in earlygame now though, so I expect that to stop working shortly.
I'm struggling more with team heroes, I feel like I don't know what to do in the midgame or how to look after my own progression as eg. dynamo. Apart from urn it seems like there just isn't as much to do that's not directly farm/fight. Even though there's no priority system, the big cores still start to eat two lanes and half a jungle pretty early, and it seems a bit pointless for me to sit there slowly doing a camp when haze would instaclear it 10 sec later anyway. Do I just roll around constantly looking for fights even when ult is down, or is there something else to prioritise?
Mechanically, I've found the movement hardest to get used to. I'm pretty reasonable at shooters and I've always been the guy who takes the time to learn the movement tech, but I just cannot get the most basic stuff nailed down in Deadlock. I still die regularly because I screwed up a dash-jump, or made a mess of crossing the map and have to enter a fight at low stam, etc.
On September 21 2024 15:45 Belisarius wrote: I am really enjoying this game. It's a cool experience to be playing something that's this polished, but is also clearly still backed by a big team in fullbore build-the-game mode. They've hotpushed half a dozen changes in just the time I've been playing, that each individually would have taken months to sort out in any other game I play. It's.... weird. I keep looking for the catch.
I assume I'm still in potato bracket, but it's interesting how well the basic gamesense from dota transfers over. I'm finding I can carry surprisingly hard just by playing the map and shoving lanes while the rest of the server gets stuck in some interminable 5 minute teamfight. I'm starting to get rekt in earlygame now though, so I expect that to stop working shortly.
I'm struggling more with team heroes, I feel like I don't know what to do in the midgame or how to look after my own progression as eg. dynamo. Apart from urn it seems like there just isn't as much to do that's not directly farm/fight. Even though there's no priority system, the big cores still start to eat two lanes and half a jungle pretty early, and it seems a bit pointless for me to sit there slowly doing a camp when haze would instaclear it 10 sec later anyway. Do I just roll around constantly looking for fights even when ult is down, or is there something else to prioritise?
Mechanically, I've found the movement hardest to get used to. I'm pretty reasonable at shooters and I've always been the guy who takes the time to learn the movement tech, but I just cannot get the most basic stuff nailed down in Deadlock. I still die regularly because I screwed up a dash-jump, or made a mess of crossing the map and have to enter a fight at low stam, etc.
Very much agree with you on the movement. The skill cap for using movement properly seems to be so incredibly high, especially as you don't use ammo while sliding, and yet I feel I can't even do the most basic things well.
That's curious. I come from mainly shooters (and RTS obvioulsy) and I had the movement basics down basically the first time touching the game. For me the biggest challenge is identifying all the different abilities and how they can help/ kill me and be more efficient in my own game/ decisionmaking
Anyone able to shoot me an invite for deadlock please? Would love to check it out with one of my best friends riptide. We haven't had something to play together in years since we both dipped out of Dota 2 and sc2 and he is hyped about deadlock and I'm interested too since i loved Dota 2, smite and paragon. My steam friend code is: 22710035 My eternal gratitude is all i think i have to offer as recompense.
for anyone wondering, you can press F7 to bring up console and type in 'map street_test' to get a game without any bot or enemy, just yourself and the minion and creeps, so you can run around the map and learn it.
On September 25 2024 04:06 PurE)Rabbit-SF wrote: https://deadlocktracker.gg/ for checking your hidden mmr btw.
None of the trackers were actually getting Valve's value for hidden MMR (this isn't given to clients or available in any API), they just had their own form of MMR that was estimated based on the games they had seen. This isn't really ever going to be as accurate as an MMR system driven by the thing doing the matchmaking, and especially for tracklock I found the values to be extremely suspect. Valve also killed the way these trackers were viewing game data as of 3 weeks ago, so they are no longer useful or updated (at least until Valve creates an API for deadlock like it has for dota)
And thank god for that. People forming '1700 MMR parties' etc on the discord when MMR doesn't even exist yet was quite dumb. Not to mention deadlocktracker and tracklock - the 2 existing tracking sites - gave different values XD
On September 25 2024 21:13 PurE)Rabbit-SF wrote: That's interesting I'm new to all of these.
I do think the hidden mmr exists tho.
My matchmaking opponents are getting much more challenging to beat.
Yes, hidden MMR exists and is used by the game for matchmaking (both for the teams/players in the match and also the lane matchups). That much has been confirmed by the devs in the official discord.
On September 25 2024 21:13 PurE)Rabbit-SF wrote: That's interesting I'm new to all of these.
I do think the hidden mmr exists tho.
My matchmaking opponents are getting much more challenging to beat.
Yes, hidden MMR exists and is used by the game for matchmaking (both for the teams/players in the match and also the lane matchups). That much has been confirmed by the devs in the official discord.
On September 25 2024 21:13 PurE)Rabbit-SF wrote: That's interesting I'm new to all of these.
I do think the hidden mmr exists tho.
My matchmaking opponents are getting much more challenging to beat.
Yes, hidden MMR exists and is used by the game for matchmaking (both for the teams/players in the match and also the lane matchups). That much has been confirmed by the devs in the official discord.
Wait so there are MMRs attached to lanes?
I think so, I can feel it, the more I play, the better I got my opponents got increasingly harder.
On September 25 2024 21:13 PurE)Rabbit-SF wrote: That's interesting I'm new to all of these.
I do think the hidden mmr exists tho.
My matchmaking opponents are getting much more challenging to beat.
Yes, hidden MMR exists and is used by the game for matchmaking (both for the teams/players in the match and also the lane matchups). That much has been confirmed by the devs in the official discord.
Wait so there are MMRs attached to lanes?
Yeah, it tries to balance the game such that evenly skilled players are matched up by lane (but obviously depending on who is in the game, this can be hard to do). If you queue with people of wildly different skill level you'll probably notice you end up in a lot of solo lanes and such.
The devs had said a few weeks back that they were working on a new version of the matchmaker that would improve things a fair amount, not sure what changes they plan to make though (or if they're already in or something)
Yeah I am really impressed. Not just the game but it's way less toxic than the MOBAs I have played. I also like how big the balance patches are, rather than fine-tuning like it's close to the finishing line
That's classic Icefrog (Deadlock game dev who also balances Dota 2).. Doesn't matter how old the game is, a balance patch will change nearly every hero and nearly every item, and quite frequently he will also bring huge mechanical or map changes. They'll get less frequent though, right now we seem to get a balance patch every 2 weeks, that'll change as the game gets more polished. It'll be more like a season approach.
My favorite is Lash, but I'm not very good with him. Negative win rate. Never end up farmed. But he's so fun.
I've been playing Mcginnis a lot lately. She's not nearly as fun as Lash... but I can abuse the macro game with her. Non stop push and farm. Disregard 90% of what's going on with the team. And people underestimate the power of her turrets.
I tried a game of Mcginnis support but didn't like it. I don't much like her new changes either. Turret spam isn't as easy to pull off anymore. For the best, maybe.
I’m loving the Seven Ball build atm. Gets hilarious near the end. Zooming around at high speed spamming giga balls everywhere to flash farm the whole map.
On October 13 2024 13:09 Chrispy wrote: I tried a game of Mcginnis support but didn't like it. I don't much like her new changes either. Turret spam isn't as easy to pull off anymore. For the best, maybe.
This is after the patch, i just played it today, and turret build is strong AF, it got buffed really, you just need to be smart about where to put it, the real buff is the ult.... way too strong.
and yes, support in pub is not fun, you need to have good com and have people following your game plan, in higher elo probably works, but in lower elo just go carry as I've learned.
darn I am so sad I went 4-1 today in ranked, should've been 5-0, I fat fingered my refresher twice in a row after first purchasing it ;( @_@, hot damn I need to play her more to have the key bind muscle memory .
players are getting so good so fast. still quite surprised the game isn't turning very toxic, lots of gg at end of game. even casual moba like HOTS got pretty toxic.
On October 16 2024 16:18 ETisME wrote: players are getting so good so fast. still quite surprised the game isn't turning very toxic, lots of gg at end of game. even casual moba like HOTS got pretty toxic.
Lots of enthusiasts still and no cheat engine (yet). Sooner or later it will become the same cesspool that online gaming always does. It also does help that the biggest country on earth is busy doing other things... it is a rather unfriendly bunch
On October 16 2024 16:18 ETisME wrote: players are getting so good so fast. still quite surprised the game isn't turning very toxic, lots of gg at end of game. even casual moba like HOTS got pretty toxic.
Lots of enthusiasts still and no cheat engine (yet). Sooner or later it will become the same cesspool that online gaming always does. It also does help that the biggest country on earth is busy doing other things... it is a rather unfriendly bunch
Haha, we must be playing different games. I have over 50% Russians in all of my games. They're not usually the toxic ones though. Or maybe they are, and I just don't understand that they're flaming me xd
On October 16 2024 16:18 ETisME wrote: players are getting so good so fast. still quite surprised the game isn't turning very toxic, lots of gg at end of game. even casual moba like HOTS got pretty toxic.
Lots of enthusiasts still and no cheat engine (yet). Sooner or later it will become the same cesspool that online gaming always does. It also does help that the biggest country on earth is busy doing other things... it is a rather unfriendly bunch
Haha, we must be playing different games. I have over 50% Russians in all of my games. They're not usually the toxic ones though. Or maybe they are, and I just don't understand that they're flaming me xd
Most game are fine, one game I had an yamato running it down sending it every single time just keeps dying cause his reason is "I hate russian"
....... >_> EU server seems far more toxic , NA and SEA/Asia seems chill in my experience so far.
get ult to level 2 ( 3 points ) can really do a shit load with 0 item, just get mystic slow if you have the money, it is freaking crazy how much dmg it does.
not gonna lie I am having fun with carry mcgenis in ranked so far 7-2 , with a few ivy game.
I am playing on NA, the environment is pretty okay.
My friend on EU is getting a lot of toxic people. They have each other "Hate russian" etc.... in reality, the war in Ukraine only lost us so many good gamers on both side.
Started ranked 3-0 and ended 3-4 lol. Very happy with where I am though. Everyone plays their heroes somewhat competently. Lots of voice comms. Haven’t had a useless feeder in quite a while. All games are close (at least at some point). I predict to get placed somewhere around rank 6-8 out of 11 but that could be completely wrong lol.
Streamers I watch are still playing a completely different game though. That movement, those soul orb flicks, never gonna get close to that level xd
........ So some frontline report from EU server The Russian and Ukrainian are hating each other when they join the game, someone ask "where are you guys from" These kids goes full glass cannon on each other speak a language rest of lobby have no clue .....(Russian)
Then... there are Spanish kid who hates French.... bla bla bla
My friend is getting tortured, LOL wtf, no one is working together on EU
On October 17 2024 23:47 Laurens wrote: Started ranked 3-0 and ended 3-4 lol. Very happy with where I am though. Everyone plays their heroes somewhat competently. Lots of voice comms. Haven’t had a useless feeder in quite a while. All games are close (at least at some point). I predict to get placed somewhere around rank 6-8 out of 11 but that could be completely wrong lol.
Streamers I watch are still playing a completely different game though. That movement, those soul orb flicks, never gonna get close to that level xd
That's not bad, I think the rank rating they start you off is relatively close to where you are in your normal games.
On October 20 2024 20:09 Laurens wrote: Yeah, if this had come out 10 years earlier, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have my degree lmao.
I had League for that! But I did graduate. Just with bad grades.
I agree. This game can sink its claws in you. I like it a lot.
I'm back to playing Lash. Buying majestic leap pretty quickly is a gamechanger. Originally I thought it was redundant, as you've already got the ability to fly... but nah, it's necessary. Amazing engages, great mobility, good for escapes.
I played my first ranked games in my new scrub tier and went 5-1. The quality of players is noticeably lower than in both my placement games and my unranked games, I'm not sure how the algorithm placed me here. Maybe because I ended on a 4 loss streak in placement. According to tracklock, my placement games had Emissary IV and Emissary V as 'match average rank'. Not all ranked games were tracked though.
Either way I don't mind, I'm dominating my lanes. My opponents don't even go for denies at this level, and they overextend often, giving me easy kills. I hope to go up a full 6 ranks and get at least Emissary III next week. Ended my last game as 11-1-12 on Seven lol.
On October 24 2024 16:51 Laurens wrote: I played my first ranked games in my new scrub tier and went 5-1. The quality of players is noticeably lower than in both my placement games and my unranked games, I'm not sure how the algorithm placed me here. Maybe because I ended on a 4 loss streak in placement. According to tracklock, my placement games had Emissary IV and Emissary V as 'match average rank'. Not all ranked games were tracked though.
Either way I don't mind, I'm dominating my lanes. My opponents don't even go for denies at this level, and they overextend often, giving me easy kills. I hope to go up a full 6 ranks and get at least Emissary III next week. Ended my last game as 11-1-12 on Seven lol.
I also got placed way lower than I should have been, I think (and am pretty similar to you in both current rank + the rank of matches played last week). I'm lower than every single one of the people I usually play with (most of which I think are pretty similar skill level) despite having a 66% winrate over 14 ranked games last week and all of my friends having negative winrates, and looking at tracklock's average match MMR for those games, I'm a full medal lower than any of the games I was tracked in last week. The only thing I can figure is that playing with some very new people a month or so ago must have tanked my unranked MMR in some way that made my ranked MMR get initialized weirdly? But it's still strange to me that I was playing and winning in higher ranked games for the majority of last week and *still* got placed a fair amount lower than that.
I'm winning all my lanes pretty hard as well, but I much preferred the closer games of last week, so hopefully I get a reasonable promotion.
The rank distribution looks pretty weird to me relative to most other games, wonder if that's intentional or just ratings that haven't spread out enough yet or something: https://tracklock.gg/ranks
I just started but the game is super fun! I m utterly garbage at it and yet wanna play more. People are also pretty nice though it must be because i m not in ranked yet.
On October 29 2024 00:17 WGT-Baal wrote: I just started but the game is super fun! I m utterly garbage at it and yet wanna play more. People are also pretty nice though it must be because i m not in ranked yet.
For a alpha/pre alpha build it s really good
Honestly people are just generally nice most of the time, even in ranked. It's definitely gone downhill a bit as it gained popularity (I started playing when it had like 2000 concurrent users, everyone was like universally nice then), but my bad experiences with people have been pretty minimal across all modes. Definitely way less than e.g. DotA or League.
That's for NA servers though, can't speak for the rest
On October 29 2024 00:17 WGT-Baal wrote: I just started but the game is super fun! I m utterly garbage at it and yet wanna play more. People are also pretty nice though it must be because i m not in ranked yet.
For a alpha/pre alpha build it s really good
Well, if you want, hit me up I can teach you a whole bunch of stuff, LOL. I grinded way too much.
On October 29 2024 00:17 WGT-Baal wrote: I just started but the game is super fun! I m utterly garbage at it and yet wanna play more. People are also pretty nice though it must be because i m not in ranked yet.
For a alpha/pre alpha build it s really good
Honestly people are just generally nice most of the time, even in ranked. It's definitely gone downhill a bit as it gained popularity (I started playing when it had like 2000 concurrent users, everyone was like universally nice then), but my bad experiences with people have been pretty minimal across all modes. Definitely way less than e.g. DotA or League.
That's for NA servers though, can't speak for the rest
Yes NA is in general nicer, I did have some douchebag on NA, but they are rare.
On the other hand, EU is like too many diff language , so is SEA, generally no one speak and do team work as needed, and soon as you lose a fight ...... everyone somehow learned to speak the same language, that is blyat fuck, or Chinese "CAO NI MA" or something LOL
Ottr got a point here, the ranked system is actually so bad, the worst one ever tbh.
I feel the same way it's very easy to abuse to get high rank... super easy to rank up at same time dead broken because the design is so bad.
TLDR, it looks too much at your personal stats rather than the win/lose of the game. Initial rank is determined by your normal game MMR
The ranked system is definitely not "the worst one ever" lol, if you think this then you have definitely not played enough other games' ranked systems. I think it does have some problems (and this video talking about how little effect placements have vs your initial unranked games is definitely one of those, imo), but there's a number of things that this video calls out that just aren't really backed up by anything?
For instance, he talks about how "games with abandons are still counted against you." His evidence for this is that these games still show up in the ranked report. This isn't really evidence that these were counted against you (or by how much), you could just as easily assume that these games didn't affect your rank change very much and that the end of week report screen is pretty disconnected from the system actually calculating rank changes (and as a programmer who has worked on such systems, this would pretty much be my assumption). We can't really know unless either Valve makes a statement either way, or people run more direct experiments for these sorts of things (and I can't imagine how you would easily do such a thing).
He also talks about ingame performance (e.g. KDA, souls/minute, etc.) affecting rank change. This is something people bring up a ton (in ranked systems outside of Deadlock as well), and I don't see much evidence for this being part of the system in Deadlock (outside of maybe initial hidden MMR calculation). People keep saying a developer said this stuff matters, and yet I have never seen a link or screenshot of them saying this, despite looking for a while. In general, a lot of the literature and experience out there for ranked systems indicates that instituting these kinds of metrics is not incredibly helpful for predicting wins/losses outside of doing initial placement. Even for initial placement, simplistic systems don't work particularly well, and are easily gamed once players know the metrics it is looking for (which makes me all the more doubtful that anyone from Valve ever said something like "more souls and kills will get you ranked higher").
My personal experience is that I was definitely under-ranked the first week, probably because of playing with a group of newer players a month or so before ranked was released. Since then, I've had a roughly 70% winrate each week over about 14-15 games, and received a 3 rank promotion every week. This feels roughly in line with what I would expect from a Glicko-based system that is based only on win/loss and has a 7 day rating calculation period. That is, it feels in line with the Occam's Razor explanation for how the ranked system works.
That said, I think I would prefer a system that doesn't have the 7 day period (although this would likely make abandons/hackers/etc. have a worse effect), and would prefer having some kind of hero draft in ranked. The rest of the complaints though, I mean, it's mostly just unfounded stuff that doesn't seem particularly plausible to me. Let's not even get into the part where he talks about "forced 50/50", any time someone brings that up you can rest assured they're deep in "not knowing what they're talking about" territory.
Ottr got a point here, the ranked system is actually so bad, the worst one ever tbh.
I feel the same way it's very easy to abuse to get high rank... super easy to rank up at same time dead broken because the design is so bad.
TLDR, it looks too much at your personal stats rather than the win/lose of the game. Initial rank is determined by your normal game MMR
The ranked system is definitely not "the worst one ever" lol, if you think this then you have definitely not played enough other games' ranked systems. I think it does have some problems (and this video talking about how little effect placements have vs your initial unranked games is definitely one of those, imo), but there's a number of things that this video calls out that just aren't really backed up by anything?
For instance, he talks about how "games with abandons are still counted against you." His evidence for this is that these games still show up in the ranked report. This isn't really evidence that these were counted against you (or by how much), you could just as easily assume that these games didn't affect your rank change very much and that the end of week report screen is pretty disconnected from the system actually calculating rank changes (and as a programmer who has worked on such systems, this would pretty much be my assumption). We can't really know unless either Valve makes a statement either way, or people run more direct experiments for these sorts of things (and I can't imagine how you would easily do such a thing).
He also talks about ingame performance (e.g. KDA, souls/minute, etc.) affecting rank change. This is something people bring up a ton (in ranked systems outside of Deadlock as well), and I don't see much evidence for this being part of the system in Deadlock (outside of maybe initial hidden MMR calculation). People keep saying a developer said this stuff matters, and yet I have never seen a link or screenshot of them saying this, despite looking for a while. In general, a lot of the literature and experience out there for ranked systems indicates that instituting these kinds of metrics is not incredibly helpful for predicting wins/losses outside of doing initial placement. Even for initial placement, simplistic systems don't work particularly well, and are easily gamed once players know the metrics it is looking for (which makes me all the more doubtful that anyone from Valve ever said something like "more souls and kills will get you ranked higher").
My personal experience is that I was definitely under-ranked the first week, probably because of playing with a group of newer players a month or so before ranked was released. Since then, I've had a roughly 70% winrate each week over about 14-15 games, and received a 3 rank promotion every week. This feels roughly in line with what I would expect from a Glicko-based system that is based only on win/loss and has a 7 day rating calculation period. That is, it feels in line with the Occam's Razor explanation for how the ranked system works.
That said, I think I would prefer a system that doesn't have the 7 day period (although this would likely make abandons/hackers/etc. have a worse effect), and would prefer having some kind of hero draft in ranked. The rest of the complaints though, I mean, it's mostly just unfounded stuff that doesn't seem particularly plausible to me. Let's not even get into the part where he talks about "forced 50/50", any time someone brings that up you can rest assured they're deep in "not knowing what they're talking about" territory.
It's fair most people don't have the most intuitive feeling of this, because I was toying with a lot of support build and I checked the valve MMR on tracklock.gg, so I know he is right on the kill stats affecting your rank, cause that MMR calculation is super obvious if you did what I did with the support builds at any given point, if you tracked your match MMR it has no relation to you win or lose at all. I won a lot of game doing weird stuff but it doesn't reflect in MMR change.
Ottr got a point here, the ranked system is actually so bad, the worst one ever tbh.
I feel the same way it's very easy to abuse to get high rank... super easy to rank up at same time dead broken because the design is so bad.
TLDR, it looks too much at your personal stats rather than the win/lose of the game. Initial rank is determined by your normal game MMR
The ranked system is definitely not "the worst one ever" lol, if you think this then you have definitely not played enough other games' ranked systems. I think it does have some problems (and this video talking about how little effect placements have vs your initial unranked games is definitely one of those, imo), but there's a number of things that this video calls out that just aren't really backed up by anything?
For instance, he talks about how "games with abandons are still counted against you." His evidence for this is that these games still show up in the ranked report. This isn't really evidence that these were counted against you (or by how much), you could just as easily assume that these games didn't affect your rank change very much and that the end of week report screen is pretty disconnected from the system actually calculating rank changes (and as a programmer who has worked on such systems, this would pretty much be my assumption). We can't really know unless either Valve makes a statement either way, or people run more direct experiments for these sorts of things (and I can't imagine how you would easily do such a thing).
He also talks about ingame performance (e.g. KDA, souls/minute, etc.) affecting rank change. This is something people bring up a ton (in ranked systems outside of Deadlock as well), and I don't see much evidence for this being part of the system in Deadlock (outside of maybe initial hidden MMR calculation). People keep saying a developer said this stuff matters, and yet I have never seen a link or screenshot of them saying this, despite looking for a while. In general, a lot of the literature and experience out there for ranked systems indicates that instituting these kinds of metrics is not incredibly helpful for predicting wins/losses outside of doing initial placement. Even for initial placement, simplistic systems don't work particularly well, and are easily gamed once players know the metrics it is looking for (which makes me all the more doubtful that anyone from Valve ever said something like "more souls and kills will get you ranked higher").
My personal experience is that I was definitely under-ranked the first week, probably because of playing with a group of newer players a month or so before ranked was released. Since then, I've had a roughly 70% winrate each week over about 14-15 games, and received a 3 rank promotion every week. This feels roughly in line with what I would expect from a Glicko-based system that is based only on win/loss and has a 7 day rating calculation period. That is, it feels in line with the Occam's Razor explanation for how the ranked system works.
That said, I think I would prefer a system that doesn't have the 7 day period (although this would likely make abandons/hackers/etc. have a worse effect), and would prefer having some kind of hero draft in ranked. The rest of the complaints though, I mean, it's mostly just unfounded stuff that doesn't seem particularly plausible to me. Let's not even get into the part where he talks about "forced 50/50", any time someone brings that up you can rest assured they're deep in "not knowing what they're talking about" territory.
It's fair most people don't have the most intuitive feeling of this, because I was toying with a lot of support build and I checked the valve MMR on tracklock.gg, so I know he is right on the kill stats affecting your rank, cause that MMR calculation is super obvious if you did what I did with the support builds at any given point, if you tracked your match MMR it has no relation to you win or lose at all. I won a lot of game doing weird stuff but it doesn't reflect in MMR change.
Tracklock does not calculate MMR, it gives you the number that Valve assigns the lobby which is assumed to be the *average hidden MMR* (but again Valve has also never stated this to be the case, and even though this is likely related to skill, we do not know the exact algorithm for calculating it from a group of players). That is, it accounts for *every single person in the lobby*. Tracklock then averages this number across all of your games to arrive at your personal number. Therefore, it is not an accurate representation of your skill. It is likely to be in the general ballpark over a large number of games, but looking at a single game (or even a few), it is much more influenced by the variance of how the matchmaker works, so you should not use it to determine the sorts of things you are trying to determine here. Given that Valve was having trouble generating matches quickly enough in the initial ranked release and had to consolidate the matchmaking times to achieve that, it is likely that the variance in skill level between matches can be fairly high (i.e. getting 3 matches that appear "lower skilled" in a row is not at all an indication that your MMR has decreased, it may just be that's all the available players in the pool at that moment).
There is no publicly available individual data about MMR (as calculated by Valve) outside of the rank assigned to you week-to-week. Therefore, he is not "right on kill stats affecting your rank", there is no evidence of this.
The game player count continue to shrink, obviously it's still in development, kind of like stormgate is but I think it will take major changes to not only return to 100k concurrents but grow. The game "okay" atm. It was fun to play when it first came out but I don't see much reason to return.
Ottr got a point here, the ranked system is actually so bad, the worst one ever tbh.
I feel the same way it's very easy to abuse to get high rank... super easy to rank up at same time dead broken because the design is so bad.
TLDR, it looks too much at your personal stats rather than the win/lose of the game. Initial rank is determined by your normal game MMR
The ranked system is definitely not "the worst one ever" lol, if you think this then you have definitely not played enough other games' ranked systems. I think it does have some problems (and this video talking about how little effect placements have vs your initial unranked games is definitely one of those, imo), but there's a number of things that this video calls out that just aren't really backed up by anything?
For instance, he talks about how "games with abandons are still counted against you." His evidence for this is that these games still show up in the ranked report. This isn't really evidence that these were counted against you (or by how much), you could just as easily assume that these games didn't affect your rank change very much and that the end of week report screen is pretty disconnected from the system actually calculating rank changes (and as a programmer who has worked on such systems, this would pretty much be my assumption). We can't really know unless either Valve makes a statement either way, or people run more direct experiments for these sorts of things (and I can't imagine how you would easily do such a thing).
He also talks about ingame performance (e.g. KDA, souls/minute, etc.) affecting rank change. This is something people bring up a ton (in ranked systems outside of Deadlock as well), and I don't see much evidence for this being part of the system in Deadlock (outside of maybe initial hidden MMR calculation). People keep saying a developer said this stuff matters, and yet I have never seen a link or screenshot of them saying this, despite looking for a while. In general, a lot of the literature and experience out there for ranked systems indicates that instituting these kinds of metrics is not incredibly helpful for predicting wins/losses outside of doing initial placement. Even for initial placement, simplistic systems don't work particularly well, and are easily gamed once players know the metrics it is looking for (which makes me all the more doubtful that anyone from Valve ever said something like "more souls and kills will get you ranked higher").
My personal experience is that I was definitely under-ranked the first week, probably because of playing with a group of newer players a month or so before ranked was released. Since then, I've had a roughly 70% winrate each week over about 14-15 games, and received a 3 rank promotion every week. This feels roughly in line with what I would expect from a Glicko-based system that is based only on win/loss and has a 7 day rating calculation period. That is, it feels in line with the Occam's Razor explanation for how the ranked system works.
That said, I think I would prefer a system that doesn't have the 7 day period (although this would likely make abandons/hackers/etc. have a worse effect), and would prefer having some kind of hero draft in ranked. The rest of the complaints though, I mean, it's mostly just unfounded stuff that doesn't seem particularly plausible to me. Let's not even get into the part where he talks about "forced 50/50", any time someone brings that up you can rest assured they're deep in "not knowing what they're talking about" territory.
It's fair most people don't have the most intuitive feeling of this, because I was toying with a lot of support build and I checked the valve MMR on tracklock.gg, so I know he is right on the kill stats affecting your rank, cause that MMR calculation is super obvious if you did what I did with the support builds at any given point, if you tracked your match MMR it has no relation to you win or lose at all. I won a lot of game doing weird stuff but it doesn't reflect in MMR change.
Tracklock does not calculate MMR, it gives you the number that Valve assigns the lobby which is assumed to be the *average hidden MMR* (but again Valve has also never stated this to be the case, and even though this is likely related to skill, we do not know the exact algorithm for calculating it from a group of players). That is, it accounts for *every single person in the lobby*. Tracklock then averages this number across all of your games to arrive at your personal number. Therefore, it is not an accurate representation of your skill. It is likely to be in the general ballpark over a large number of games, but looking at a single game (or even a few), it is much more influenced by the variance of how the matchmaker works, so you should not use it to determine the sorts of things you are trying to determine here. Given that Valve was having trouble generating matches quickly enough in the initial ranked release and had to consolidate the matchmaking times to achieve that, it is likely that the variance in skill level between matches can be fairly high (i.e. getting 3 matches that appear "lower skilled" in a row is not at all an indication that your MMR has decreased, it may just be that's all the available players in the pool at that moment).
There is no publicly available individual data about MMR (as calculated by Valve) outside of the rank assigned to you week-to-week. Therefore, he is not "right on kill stats affecting your rank", there is no evidence of this.
I played over 700 hours since September 13th, and it's very apparent to me how it is being calculated, cause there was about good 100~150 games I was toying with support build and playstyle how it is ranking you up and down is super obvious.
And when you are with group of player it boost you (lowest player) to the higher ranked player as average, your whole play / team result nothing else matter at that point it just boost you up. It's what I have observed what the system was doing.
On November 07 2024 09:58 CicadaSC wrote: The game player count continue to shrink, obviously it's still in development, kind of like stormgate is but I think it will take major changes to not only return to 100k concurrents but grow. The game "okay" atm. It was fun to play when it first came out but I don't see much reason to return.
There are quite a few in game issue aside from rank calculation and everything else.
The kills are not rewarding, economy system kind of don't work right now, it is trying to force comebacks.
And it's like quite often you will find 60 kills vs 30 kills, but the losing team has more ability points and stuff. And can swing a lot too.
It is for sure a work in progress, the base of the game is really good. It has a lot of things other games doesn't. It's fresh and new in many ways.
Stormgate has no cure, deadlock just needs tweak and version changes. Stormgate has no good base game and the performance of the game is trash. I don't think Stormgate is relevant to compare deadlock or describe its current game state, not even close.
As soon as the game is polished enough, Valve will host a few tournaments and it will take off.
As for the ranked discussion, I don't notice performance having an effect on rank, imo it's just based on win/loss like Dota is. If I lose a game where I was absolutely carrying my team and I'm top souls/kills/damage whatever, i'll still rank down. System doesn't care that I did well. A loss is a loss.
my friend goes like 3-14 in one week rank still go up his personal stats is good, he plays vindicta so is really hard to solo carry in a sense turn game around when needed.
My friend is a semi-pro Apex Legend player, he hasn't played this game enough to have high normal game MMR, but like he farms kids with vindicta and maxing damage and kills every game, but his teammates are usually "Retarted" if not just straight up have hate issue on EU .......cause .... different country and ........language barrier... .to political....... and other cultural issue.
we are both going up the ranks very steadly, but it's like it forces us to do quite a few things we don't quite like the way it is right now. And also the economy system is not exciting to say the least.
There you go , he went 9 win out of 24 games, so 9-15 and he ranked up.
His first week he won like 3~4 games and placed into oracle which was pretty much on par with his nekoscore/valveMMR normal game.
Okay, but what are the ranks of the people in the games he won vs the games he lost? How did they perform throughout the week? What rank changes did they receive? Win/loss on its own is simply not enough to determine whether you will rank up or down, and part of the point of using a longer rating period (7 days vs every game) would be to account for the system as a whole.
You (like many other people) are being incredibly superstitious about what is going on here in the absence of data, when all of this is much more easily explained by it being a Glicko-based system that uses wins and losses (i.e. exactly what Valve uses in both DotA and CS2).
I'm honestly done talking to you about this, you don't read or comprehend anything. And please, use the edit button, you don't need to post 6 posts in a row
There you go , he went 9 win out of 24 games, so 9-15 and he ranked up.
His first week he won like 3~4 games and placed into oracle which was pretty much on par with his nekoscore/valveMMR normal game.
Okay, but what are the ranks of the people in the games he won vs the games he lost? How did they perform throughout the week? What rank changes did they receive? Win/loss on its own is simply not enough to determine whether you will rank up or down, and part of the point of using a longer rating period (7 days vs every game) would be to account for the system as a whole.
You (like many other people) are being incredibly superstitious about what is going on here in the absence of data, when all of this is much more easily explained by it being a Glicko-based system that uses wins and losses (i.e. exactly what Valve uses in both DotA and CS2).
I'd have a hard time sourcing exactly what is used, but it would not surprise me in the least to learn Valve uses data outside W/L in their MMR. The most provable example was 4 years back(?) in dota, you would do your ranked placements as Zeus because your overall damage contribution impacted your MMR for placement. Zeus ult does damage to everyone globally so you'd spam it on cooldown to maximize damage dealt, with disregard for strategic/tactical use.
I also encountered robust 'smurf detection' when I tried to play with some complerely-new-to-dota friends years ago. I had a 1.x KDA and like 20% winrate (I was very much letting my friends learn and not trying to solo carry) but the account was still matching at about 3k mmr after 6 games. It had to be reading data on my stacking camps or something, because WR and KDA were not justifying 3k unranked mmr. (friends were approx 800-1500mmr by my guess)
All by way of saying I'd be floored to learn that Valve currently uses strictly glicko in its games.
Haha, I start playing the Seven ball build -> it gets nerfed in a week After trying various heroes, go with McGinnis -> it gets nerfed in a week We continue searching.
There you go , he went 9 win out of 24 games, so 9-15 and he ranked up.
His first week he won like 3~4 games and placed into oracle which was pretty much on par with his nekoscore/valveMMR normal game.
Okay, but what are the ranks of the people in the games he won vs the games he lost? How did they perform throughout the week? What rank changes did they receive? Win/loss on its own is simply not enough to determine whether you will rank up or down, and part of the point of using a longer rating period (7 days vs every game) would be to account for the system as a whole.
You (like many other people) are being incredibly superstitious about what is going on here in the absence of data, when all of this is much more easily explained by it being a Glicko-based system that uses wins and losses (i.e. exactly what Valve uses in both DotA and CS2).
I'd have a hard time sourcing exactly what is used, but it would not surprise me in the least to learn Valve uses data outside W/L in their MMR. The most provable example was 4 years back(?) in dota, you would do your ranked placements as Zeus because your overall damage contribution impacted your MMR for placement. Zeus ult does damage to everyone globally so you'd spam it on cooldown to maximize damage dealt, with disregard for strategic/tactical use.
I also encountered robust 'smurf detection' when I tried to play with some complerely-new-to-dota friends years ago. I had a 1.x KDA and like 20% winrate (I was very much letting my friends learn and not trying to solo carry) but the account was still matching at about 3k mmr after 6 games. It had to be reading data on my stacking camps or something, because WR and KDA were not justifying 3k unranked mmr. (friends were approx 800-1500mmr by my guess)
All by way of saying I'd be floored to learn that Valve currently uses strictly glicko in its games.
I'm aware of the Zeus thing, but smurf detection exists outside of the normal ranked system. It's not something that is directly part of the system adjusting MMR, rather it's something that's looking at gameplay and trying to find people that clearly do not belong. So yes, I agree that there are almost certainly multiple systems at play here, but for players that don't fall well outside the bounds of whatever their rating bracket's skill level is, I don't see any real evidence for kills/souls/etc. being the driving factor behind MMR changes. All I have ever seen is people being extremely superstitious (which a 7-day rating period certainly doesn't help with) and people saying "a Valve employee said this" without ever linking/showing them doing so.
I don't know what to tell you man, I wrote a lot to explain in a bit more detail but I guess you don't want to hear or think it is possible, but I've tracked my 800 games over time when I was doing different things, it is 100% they don't give that much weight on win/lose, but more on your personal stats.
It is super super apparent, is not a superstition, I've seen it happen.
Quality of games and matchmaking has gone downhill rather sharply in the past 2 weeks. Idk if it's changes made by Valve or a drop in playerbase that has caused this. Today they merged unranked and ranked queue (which saw me go up to Archon, but it's meaningless now) and removed the forced solo queue which will only add to the issues imo. You can enter a flag in console to indicate you prefer solo only games but idk how well that will work.
Either way, it's been less fun lately. With the OSRS league starting on wednesday, it's time for a break from Deadlock :D
EPT
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/g9h9fQV.png)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/8queTxS.png)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/iV7yIvg.png)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/5oFdeyf.png)
