On November 24 2023 02:25 Fleetfeet wrote: Wut? If you're not beholden to a publisher and have the freedom to run a kickstarter, choosing to NOT do a kickstarter is leaving money on the table. It isn't a cry for help or a sign they're out of money, it's a sign they're the corporation you'd expect they are and are gonna do the capitalist run for as much money as possible.
Wut? They are beholden to publisher Kakao Games due to a $25M investment in early 2022. They also received a $5M investment in late 2020. Interest rates are way up.
Frost Giant is on the clock. Kakao wants money, now.
We're mid way thru the 4th quarter and the high interest rate line backers are preparing to blitz the Frost Giant line of scrimmage. as QB Tim Morton approaches the center he sees this threat and calls a Kickstarter audible.
There are 87 bazillion football games on today... i just had to.
Kakao Games don't have a publishing deal with Frost Giant as far as we know. They are an investor and I am sure they knew that Frost Giant weren't going to release a full game after 3 years of development when they invested.
Frost Giant probably didn't get all $35M up front years ago when the Fed interest rate was 0.5%. Frost Giant is prolly balking at far higher interest rates of today...i think the Fed is at 5.5%.
On November 24 2023 06:02 _Spartak_ wrote: Kakao Games don't have a publishing deal with Frost Giant as far as we know.
RTS is big in Korea.
wadaya wanna bet that when this puppy gets made it gets published and distributed in Korea via Kakao's already in place extensive network of affiliated PC Bangs, Premium Services, Duam games platform... etc etc.
Kakao is an active Korean video game publisher. Korea loves RTS. Kakao gave Frost Giant access to $20M USD.
If it quacks like a duck. Walks like a duck. Its a duck. I say Kakao publishes and distributes the game in Korea.
EDIT: it was "Series A" funding. So Kakao has an ownership stake. Therefore, Frost Giant is "beholden" to Kakao.
On November 21 2023 09:29 Hider wrote: I agree that the next RTS will "fail" or at least not obtain more than a little niche of the overall player market. Stormgate, Immortals gates of pyre and zerospace are all too conservative in their design choices. A mixed average of Wc3 and Sc2 as opposed to investing new stuff that can "wow" in a new playerbase. A good test is this; show the average MOBA player some clips/highlights of a new RTS game. If they are not immediately drawn to it, the game has no potential.
It’s a niche, but it’s a big enough niche. Gaming is just such a larger leisure activity than it used to be that there’s just more pie to go around.
I’m still reserving judgement to see how things go I guess.
If you want to reach a wide (and young) audience, you have to go mobile. It's the only way IMO. Though I personally do not want dumbed down controls etc. so niche is fine for me :D
I think PC MOBA market is big enough. If you can cater to say 20% of that market, you can create a very succesful RTS. Catering to them is less about simplifying/making the game easy and more about innovative and interesting unit-design and whether the flow of gameplay appears fun at first glance.
On November 24 2023 01:04 Nirli wrote: Only people in denial would see this as a good thing. This is textbook corpo speak for "we need money". It also seems to me that there are some downright zealous defenders of SG, mainly on the R*ddit, where anything deemed negative is just downvoted into oblivion. Selling beta access is just plain bad, doesn't matter if X other companies are doing it. The studio making this is giving major NuBlizzard vibes while trying to paint themselves as the opposite. Talk about history repeating itself.
I am a defender of Frost Giant because I believe in this guy:
I don't like the idea of selling standalone beta access but bundling it in with other things people want doesn't seem bad to me. In general, I don't see a problem with collector's editions or other founder's pack content if there's good value for money. There has been a vocal demand for ways to support the game and for physical things to own–of which Frost Giant is providing here. People toss money in the trash all the time at bars, expensive pairs of shoes, random crap on Amazon–I dno how ridiculous of a notion it is to spend a couple of bucks to support a game that you hope does well and survives the decades. To compare this to "NuBlizzard" where soulless umbrella corps take advantage of players only to ship recycled slop is, in a word, bonkers.
I am an industry outsider so I don't know how hard it is to contend with the harsh realities of this brutal (awful) system we all live in just to make your ambitious video game. But I do know that this Morten dude is solid. A good ship captain is the most important thing to me–it keeps me confident in the outcome even if there are small bumps along the way. Not saying that what we're seeing is even small bumps, just sayin in general.
As an endcap to this rant, I'd say people tend to be a bit dramatic about this stuff. If you're not sold on the quality of the game, or think this is all a bunch of bullshit - then skip the kickstarter. Wait until they earn your trust, or just play for free. I see no problem with this.
On November 24 2023 07:15 JimmyJRaynor wrote: Frost Giant probably didn't get all $35M up front years ago when the Fed interest rate was 0.5%. Frost Giant is prolly balking at far higher interest rates of today...i think the Fed is at 5.5%.
On November 24 2023 06:02 _Spartak_ wrote: Kakao Games don't have a publishing deal with Frost Giant as far as we know.
RTS is big in Korea.
wadaya wanna bet that when this puppy gets made it gets published and distributed in Korea via Kakao's already in place extensive network of affiliated PC Bangs, Premium Services, Duam games platform... etc etc.
Kakao is an active Korean video game publisher. Korea loves RTS. Kakao gave Frost Giant access to $20M USD.
If it quacks like a duck. Walks like a duck. Its a duck. I say Kakao publishes and distributes the game in Korea.
EDIT: it was "Series A" funding. So Kakao has an ownership stake. Therefore, Frost Giant is "beholden" to Kakao.
I don't know why you are bringing up interest rates. Investment isn't a loan. Investors buy a percentage of Frost Giant and hope Frost Giant will gain value over time, meaning their ownership of that stock also gains value. Frost Giant won't be repaying that $35m.
Kakao is the lead investor in Frost Giant but we have no indication that they are the majority stakeholder. Even in the press release announcing that investment, Frost Giant was called an "independent studio", which would imply the founders of Frost Giant still own the majority of the company.
On November 24 2023 01:04 Nirli wrote: Only people in denial would see this as a good thing. This is textbook corpo speak for "we need money". It also seems to me that there are some downright zealous defenders of SG, mainly on the R*ddit, where anything deemed negative is just downvoted into oblivion. Selling beta access is just plain bad, doesn't matter if X other companies are doing it. The studio making this is giving major NuBlizzard vibes while trying to paint themselves as the opposite. Talk about history repeating itself.
I am a defender of Frost Giant because I believe in this guy:
I don't like the idea of selling standalone beta access but bundling it in with other things people want doesn't seem bad to me. In general, I don't see a problem with collector's editions or other founder's pack content if there's good value for money. There has been a vocal demand for ways to support the game and for physical things to own–of which Frost Giant is providing here. People toss money in the trash all the time at bars, expensive pairs of shoes, random crap on Amazon–I dno how ridiculous of a notion it is to spend a couple of bucks to support a game that you hope does well and survives the decades. To compare this to "NuBlizzard" where soulless umbrella corps take advantage of players only to ship recycled slop is, in a word, bonkers.
On November 24 2023 07:15 JimmyJRaynor wrote: Frost Giant probably didn't get all $35M up front years ago when the Fed interest rate was 0.5%. Frost Giant is prolly balking at far higher interest rates of today...i think the Fed is at 5.5%.
On November 24 2023 06:02 _Spartak_ wrote: Kakao Games don't have a publishing deal with Frost Giant as far as we know.
RTS is big in Korea.
wadaya wanna bet that when this puppy gets made it gets published and distributed in Korea via Kakao's already in place extensive network of affiliated PC Bangs, Premium Services, Duam games platform... etc etc.
Kakao is an active Korean video game publisher. Korea loves RTS. Kakao gave Frost Giant access to $20M USD.
If it quacks like a duck. Walks like a duck. Its a duck. I say Kakao publishes and distributes the game in Korea.
EDIT: it was "Series A" funding. So Kakao has an ownership stake. Therefore, Frost Giant is "beholden" to Kakao.
I don't know why you are bringing up interest rates. Investment isn't a loan. Investors buy a percentage of Frost Giant and hope Frost Giant will gain value over time, meaning their ownership of that stock also gains value. Frost Giant won't be repaying that $35m.
Kakao is the lead investor in Frost Giant but we have no indication that they are the majority stakeholder. Even in the press release announcing that investment, Frost Giant was called an "independent studio", which would imply the founders of Frost Giant still own the majority of the company.
cool. so you are saying Frost Giant is not "beholden" to Kakao? Because I disagree with the comment "not beholden to any publisher". They are so "beholden" to Kakao that Kakao has an ownership stake in FG. Kakao won't get paid back because Kakao is getting an ownership stake. That is what series A funding is.
Are you saying Kakao won't publish and distribute the game in Korea? I say Kakao publishes the game in Korea... its pretty obvious.
interest rates influence the venture capital market place. Frost Giant has gone on 3 venture capital fishing expeditions When interest rates were near 0. Now the Fed is at ~6%. FG's current fishing expedition failed in a much higher interest rate environment... OR FG got access to more money and the interest rate is too high. So its kickstarter time.
On November 24 2023 09:35 RogerChillingworth wrote:
On November 24 2023 01:04 Nirli wrote: Only people in denial would see this as a good thing. This is textbook corpo speak for "we need money". It also seems to me that there are some downright zealous defenders of SG, mainly on the R*ddit, where anything deemed negative is just downvoted into oblivion. Selling beta access is just plain bad, doesn't matter if X other companies are doing it. The studio making this is giving major NuBlizzard vibes while trying to paint themselves as the opposite. Talk about history repeating itself.
I am a defender of Frost Giant because I believe in this guy:
i loved Morton's work on both RA3 and SC2. The changes made to SC2 after he arrived from EALA were fantastic. The game improved so much, imo. The guy is a great designer who creates the style of RTS I prefer the most. It remains to be seen how good of a CEO he is. Put another way... the inventor of basketball, James Naismith, is a great game designer. I do not know if he can run the NBA though.
RA3 and SC2:LotV are , by far, my 2 favourite RTS games. This doesn't mean Morton can handle the publishing side of the business.
Kakao won't get paid back because Kakao is getting an ownership stake.
If you mean that they own a part of the company, yeah. That's what I said. As do the other 10 investors and probably Dreamhaven as well. It doesn't mean Frost Giant isn't making the decisions themselves. It is an independent company.
Are you saying Kakao won't publish and distribute the game in Korea?
No. I am saying they aren't the game's publisher in any region as of now.
interest rates influence the venture capital market place. Frost Giant has gone on 3 venture capital fishing expeditions When interest rates were near 0. Now the Fed is at ~6%. FG's current fishing expedition failed in a much higher interest rate environment... OR FG got access to more money and the interest rate is too high. So its kickstarter time.
Maybe. In any case, they said from the time of their last funding round that they are fully funded to release the game and I don't see any indication as to why that would have changed. If they were running out of money as you suggest, KS isn't going to help that much. They have raised $35m so far. Adding another million to that through KS (some of which will go to producing collector's editions) won't do much for them. Their explanation that they are doing it to gauge interest in collector's edition and allow more people into beta by providing a way for people to support them makes more sense. Both of which were common requests. They are not making it up. I imagine it will also help with marketing the game.
Frost Giant is as "independent" as any studio that received most of its funding from a giant video game publisher. Kakao won't tell them how to make a death animation for a Tank. Kakao will undoubtedly dictate distribution and publishing. Frost Giant stated they have no marketing department and even made a joke about it by showing an empty room.
This whole "we're the little guy" act is hilarious. They have $35M in funding primarily from a publisher with over 10,000 employees.
Now our poor little friends need some Kickstarter cash. I can send them some dog food because they like to have their dogs run around the office. LOL.
$35m funding isn't all that much for the scope of the project they are undertaking. They aren't a small indie team but not a AAA studio either. They are trying to build a game in a genre we all love and are clearly passionate about the genre. I don't know why you are being so cynical about it. I don't think it is the case but it looks like you would be delighted if you are correct and the project is failing because they are running out of money and you want that to be the case. Very weird.
On November 25 2023 07:39 _Spartak_ wrote: $35m funding isn't all that much for the scope of the project they are undertaking. They aren't a small indie team but not a AAA studio either. They are trying to build a game in a genre we all love and are clearly passionate about the genre. I don't know why you are being so cynical about it. I don't think it is the case but it looks like you would be delighted if you are correct and the project is failing because they are running out of money and you want that to be the case. Very weird.
If they were running out of money, a quite limited scope Kickstarter doesn’t seem like it’d be something they’d be pursuing, agreed.
If they pivoted and changed the model to paid retail and away from F2P or something like that I’d view that as a much more indicative sign of their funding running out.
On November 25 2023 07:39 _Spartak_ wrote: $35m funding isn't all that much for the scope of the project they are undertaking. They aren't a small indie team but not a AAA studio either. They are trying to build a game in a genre we all love and are clearly passionate about the genre. I don't know why you are being so cynical about it. I don't think it is the case but it looks like you would be delighted if you are correct and the project is failing because they are running out of money and you want that to be the case. Very weird.
Especially considering that this is a person who would fervently defend the same shyster-y actions if they were being made by parties that Jimmy liked. The level of emotional investment in this studio from Jimmy is something I don't ever care to understand.
I don't think they're running out of money. They're not beholden to a publisher and can make a kickstarter to get more money, and these days kickstarters are 'figured out' enough that companies will know what they're getting in to and what to expect out of it.
Is a bit weird they are opening a kickstarter now. Specially for a company that announced millions in funding from different partners. Riot / EPIC / KAKAO etc. From a marketing point of view you start to wonder how healthy they doing. I would have prefered to see the store section in their webpage offering some toys sales that includes a beta code. Even if in concept it is the same it actually changes the vision. Now they are saying that will help to pay servers so more people can try the game. Im pretty sure i saw recently they are collaborating with some big server provider too so idk how much pr bs is in that kickstarter. I still want them to make a good RTS. I want to see the next evolution of RTS like it happened from WC II to Starcraft to WC3 to SC2. But so far since day 1 the marketing is not really helping them.
On November 25 2023 17:14 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Is a bit weird they are opening a kickstarter now. Specially for a company that announced millions in funding from different partners. Riot / EPIC / KAKAO etc. From a marketing point of view you start to wonder how healthy they doing. I would have prefered to see the store section in their webpage offering some toys sales that includes a beta code. Even if in concept it is the same it actually changes the vision. Now they are saying that will help to pay servers so more people can try the game. Im pretty sure i saw recently they are collaborating with some big server provider too so idk how much pr bs is in that kickstarter. I still want them to make a good RTS. I want to see the next evolution of RTS like it happened from WC II to Starcraft to WC3 to SC2. But so far since day 1 the marketing is not really helping them.
I can only speak for my local crew, most of whom were a little young to get bit by BW, many of whom first got into RTS with SC2 and almost all of us are a bit burnt out by the game and are as much a social drinking club now, having done tournaments for 11/12 years.
Most desperately want Stormgate to succeed, to explore a new game and only one of us in our community of 300/350 got onto the earlier alphas.
To that degree some collector’s edition that also grants beta access is something people are rather interested in. Plus some folks just love their physical media and collecting plastic.
It feels a pretty natural thing to do, least to me and it’s not exactly an endeavour that would hugely derail development.
Personally I’m of the opinion that, if it’s a very good game, which is still a maybe of course, that Stormgate will be sustained by RTS diehards, many of us older and many of us willing to be borderline whales to get a new title, rather than it inspiring a new generation of RTS converts.
Hey I’d love to be wrong, but given that’s my perception at this point in time I think this fits pretty nicely.
I would have prefered to see the store section in their webpage offering some toys sales that includes a beta code
They explain why they can't do this in their reddit post. Steam doesn't allow developers to sell beta keys for an unreleased game with the exception of crowdfunding campaigns.
I would have prefered to see the store section in their webpage offering some toys sales that includes a beta code
They explain why they can't do this in their reddit post. Steam doesn't allow developers to sell beta keys for an unreleased game with the exception of crowdfunding campaigns.
Is this real tho ? im pretty sure Call of Duty give you early betas if you pre order their game ;;
In the case of CoD, you would be buying the game on Steam though. Or you would be buying it through battle.net but then you play the beta through battle.net launcher. You don't buy the game through an external site and then get a Steam key for a beta. I imagine Valve puts such restrictions to prevent developers from circumventing Steam to sell stuff and avoid paying a fee to Valve.
On November 25 2023 17:14 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Is a bit weird they are opening a kickstarter now. Specially for a company that announced millions in funding from different partners. Riot / EPIC / KAKAO etc. From a marketing point of view you start to wonder how healthy they doing. I would have prefered to see the store section in their webpage offering some toys sales that includes a beta code. Even if in concept it is the same it actually changes the vision. Now they are saying that will help to pay servers so more people can try the game. Im pretty sure i saw recently they are collaborating with some big server provider too so idk how much pr bs is in that kickstarter. I still want them to make a good RTS. I want to see the next evolution of RTS like it happened from WC II to Starcraft to WC3 to SC2. But so far since day 1 the marketing is not really helping them.
I thought the same thing. I guess you can think of it like micro transactions though? Just optional purchases to fund operations, which is how things will be in the live service version of the game anyway. iirc they wanna do like dota or like sc2 war chest where every purchase goes into esport prize pools. This however just goes into server costs. I don't think it's bad inherently just a little bit odd when u remember this is marketed as the next AAA RTS. That normally doesn't go hand and hand with a Kickstarter.
EPT
