EPTIt would be better to let the content creators talk about the game for publicity even with a few unpolished things that can be fixed eventually.
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread - Page 43
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parkin
1080 Posts
It would be better to let the content creators talk about the game for publicity even with a few unpolished things that can be fixed eventually. | ||
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RogerChillingworth
2892 Posts
On August 23 2023 15:20 Uldridge wrote: The more I find out about this, the more it feels like they're stuck in the early 2000's. It feels so generic and bland. Color schemes don't get me going either. It's partly why I do not enjoy watching DOTA(2) or SCII. They're going to need great mechanics to make this a winner. To be fair games were much better back then lol. pretty sure the sharp edges on the models and those kinds of angles just look better in isometric (ergo warcraft 3) | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25475 Posts
On August 23 2023 23:25 parkin wrote: I think all the NDA contracts, secrecy and silence is actually hurting them. For me it is a warning flag when companies do stuff like that instead of transparency. It would be better to let the content creators talk about the game for publicity even with a few unpolished things that can be fixed eventually. It’s the combination of publicly absolutely drip feeding stuff, while also running a limited alpha build at the same time. The former isn’t super engaging me at the moment because the alpha is running with good players exploring the game. But I can’t talk about the latter as I don’t wanna get anyone I know on it in trouble. I don’t think we need to open the alpha necessarily, it’s very early days and rough, so it may negatively prejudice people’s perceptions in a way that’s unfair on a game at this stage. But you’re given very little else at the same time. You’ve got many of SC2 and WC3’s ex-pros, commentators and content creators on the alpha, you really can’t put out some curated matches and casts using that talent pool? | ||
NonY
8748 Posts
On August 24 2023 00:00 RogerChillingworth wrote: To be fair games were much better back then lol. pretty sure the sharp edges on the models and those kinds of angles just look better in isometric (ergo warcraft 3) I'm still optimistic about the gameplay being good, the client being good, the esports scene being handled well. I'm pessimistic about the lore and storytelling and "cool factor" and the vibe of the game. To the extent that the artistic side of things exists to serve the gameplay (like in-game unit models having good readability, sound effects, etc), I think they are going to do a good job. But the promotional materials have not been cool. I'm sure they've got talent on the payroll who could be making something more cool and fresh, but whoever's in charge is setting a tone that is like "gen X guy living in the past who justifies his outdated taste by saying it's a good conservative business decision" IDK it just feels like what they're missing is some 25-35 year old creative who knows what would actually be cool and contemporary taking the lead on all the promotional material It also maybe feels like they felt it prudent to just get something out there so that people hear the name Stormgate and get familiar with it, so that when the real promotional stuff happens, it's a familiar name and people subconsciously feel more comfortable and confident in it On August 23 2023 23:25 parkin wrote: I think all the NDA contracts, secrecy and silence is actually hurting them. For me it is a warning flag when companies do stuff like that instead of transparency. It would be better to let the content creators talk about the game for publicity even with a few unpolished things that can be fixed eventually. This phase is just really awkward... I think if everything was completely silent and NDA'd up to the point when they have 3 full factions and a few more gameplay things hammered down, then they could go full transparency then. But they're trying to have some transparency and promotion while having only 5% of the game done or whatever. Feels like they recognize that a grassroots community is really good and valuable, but they're trying to plant the seeds for a grassroots community themselves? lol you can't have it both ways. if i suddenly became the FGS czar for everything public facing about SG, I'd first have everyone stfu about everything until at least the 1v1 multiplayer is mostly built and just being iterated on, then I'd go to all the creatives on payroll and ask them to tell me what they think the coolest shit out there is right now that's fresh and contemporary and I'd put together a new style of promotional materials. I don't think their 3min cinematic trailer in June '22 was an efficient use of promotional bucks. it would've been very cool 15 years ago | ||
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NonY
8748 Posts
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RogerChillingworth
2892 Posts
On August 24 2023 01:37 NonY wrote: I'm still optimistic about the gameplay being good, the client being good, the esports scene being handled well. I'm pessimistic about the lore and storytelling and "cool factor" and the vibe of the game. It's funny because I think one thing needs to the other: a really compelling, well written story gives merit to a kind of viral/meta-fictional marketing campaign, but without the really great story it's hard to invest in this kind of marketing and worldbuilding. It's what always makes it so frustrating. So often does a script written on a legal pad or some ideas swirling around in someone's head determine the ultimate effectiveness of all the other expensive technical people. This kind of storytelling acumen is invaluable but it's also very hard to find. And even if it is found, would veteran game devs go for it in lieu of their own ideas? Quite a dubious proposition indeed xD. I'm reserving judgement until we're further along but it doesn't seem like we're gonna get Star Wars or The Expanse or Dune or anything like that for Stormgate. Not that Stormgate has to be as good as these properties, but the ambition to be as good would be cool. I'd love to be proven wrong, I'm just not optimistic about that side of development right now. It would be a bit of a shame because great lore rlly does attract a ton of players and also produces a lot of revenue. Not a deal breaker if it doesn't all come together but definitely a missed opportunity. A lot of successful games don't have any story to speak of, but an RTS is a chance to knock it out of the park. | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1746 Posts
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RogerChillingworth
2892 Posts
k ima shut up for a bit after this but just wanted to correct myself and say that a game doesnt need to go as big as sw or dune or whatever, that was kinda dumb. and anyway. i'd honestly be totally fine with just an insanely fun multiplayer. Like the fact that FG is committing to all these rts"pillars" is pretty insane. i'm gettin greedy ngl. and a little too invested rofl. | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1746 Posts
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
Not a big fan of a quasi creep mechanic, but i guess it depends how it is executed, sc2's is just too oppressive, bw's for example is totally fine. I think there is a decent chance that this game is gonna be really good when it comes out, there seems to be a certain level of polish to all of it. But getting there will test some people's patience, as these small updates just don't do enough to create positive conversation surrounding the game. | ||
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Hildegard
Germany306 Posts
On August 24 2023 01:37 NonY wrote: I'm still optimistic about the gameplay being good, the client being good, the esports scene being handled well. I'm pessimistic about the lore and storytelling and "cool factor" and the vibe of the game. To the extent that the artistic side of things exists to serve the gameplay (like in-game unit models having good readability, sound effects, etc), I think they are going to do a good job. But the promotional materials have not been cool. I'm sure they've got talent on the payroll who could be making something more cool and fresh, but whoever's in charge is setting a tone that is like "gen X guy living in the past who justifies his outdated taste by saying it's a good conservative business decision" IDK it just feels like what they're missing is some 25-35 year old creative who knows what would actually be cool and contemporary taking the lead on all the promotional material It also maybe feels like they felt it prudent to just get something out there so that people hear the name Stormgate and get familiar with it, so that when the real promotional stuff happens, it's a familiar name and people subconsciously feel more comfortable and confident in it This phase is just really awkward... I think if everything was completely silent and NDA'd up to the point when they have 3 full factions and a few more gameplay things hammered down, then they could go full transparency then. But they're trying to have some transparency and promotion while having only 5% of the game done or whatever. Feels like they recognize that a grassroots community is really good and valuable, but they're trying to plant the seeds for a grassroots community themselves? lol you can't have it both ways. if i suddenly became the FGS czar for everything public facing about SG, I'd first have everyone stfu about everything until at least the 1v1 multiplayer is mostly built and just being iterated on, then I'd go to all the creatives on payroll and ask them to tell me what they think the coolest shit out there is right now that's fresh and contemporary and I'd put together a new style of promotional materials. I don't think their 3min cinematic trailer in June '22 was an efficient use of promotional bucks. it would've been very cool 15 years ago Agreed. For me, the most troubling part is that the current team did not recognize how much the trailer was out of touch. It's been over two decades, essentially since Buffy the Vampire Slayer came out, since the idea that ugly looks mean evil and demons are scary doesn't work as non-self-ironic storytelling. They probably thought it was a "kick-ass" trailer. That means either the full team has no contemporary feel for storytelling or, even worse, those that do feel like they can't speak up about it. Even for SC2, the self-irony that Heroes of the Storm brought to the table was often more entertaining than the main story. I'm not sure if the audience that bought SC2 for the single-player missions still exists. If not, maybe a less serious approach and more stylized graphics could be an option. We are at a time now when the big IPs like Marvel or Star Wars are not as convincing anymore. Smaller-scale, more personal stories are coming back. No one cares if death lasers threaten the fabric of reality in the multiverse, but if someone cuts their finger with a piece of paper, we can feel the pain. | ||
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RogerChillingworth
2892 Posts
Star Wars, not the modern shit but the originals, WAS a pretty small story honestly. There weren't that many characters and although we went to diff planets, we only saw a very small piece of what was actually going on. This is kinda what i meant. It's just good worldbuilding. Not necessarily big (vertical) storytelling. k i promised i'd shut up and i didn't (a classic). On August 24 2023 15:12 CicadaSC wrote: Stormgate plays a lot better than it looks That's good news. I think it looks good tho. So it must play rlly well. But hey, i thought you didn't have a key. :sus: | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1746 Posts
 otherwise I would be breaking my NDA by speaking on how it plays. but also isn't trolling bannable as per TL NET forum rules? Hmmm it would appear I am in a pickle. Figuratively and literally. Wait I've said too much. THE THIRD RACE IN STORMGATE IS ROBOTS, AN AI THAT HAS DEVULGED INTO ITS OWN SELF SUSTAINING FACTION. | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13389 Posts
On August 25 2023 00:12 Hildegard wrote: Agreed. For me, the most troubling part is that the current team did not recognize how much the trailer was out of touch. It's been over two decades, essentially since Buffy the Vampire Slayer came out, since the idea that ugly looks mean evil and demons are scary doesn't work as non-self-ironic storytelling. They probably thought it was a "kick-ass" trailer. That means either the full team has no contemporary feel for storytelling or, even worse, those that do feel like they can't speak up about it. Even for SC2, the self-irony that Heroes of the Storm brought to the table was often more entertaining than the main story. I'm not sure if the audience that bought SC2 for the single-player missions still exists. If not, maybe a less serious approach and more stylized graphics could be an option. We are at a time now when the big IPs like Marvel or Star Wars are not as convincing anymore. Smaller-scale, more personal stories are coming back. No one cares if death lasers threaten the fabric of reality in the multiverse, but if someone cuts their finger with a piece of paper, we can feel the pain. IDK, I mostly lurk TL nowadays cuz I am busy, older, have kids and working full time. But I personally still like playing single player RTS games and look forward to it, as well as co-op and dabbling without being too committed to 1v1 or 2v2 or whatever comes up. I just don't have the energy to really devote to honing RTS competitive skillsets anymore at this stage in my life, but I do want to dabble and want to feel good while beating up on AI. AI stomps have always been a thing, and adding story and fun mission scenarios to that is, I think, more popular than folks like to think. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On August 25 2023 00:12 Hildegard wrote: Agreed. For me, the most troubling part is that the current team did not recognize how much the trailer was out of touch. It's been over two decades, essentially since Buffy the Vampire Slayer came out, since the idea that ugly looks mean evil and demons are scary doesn't work as non-self-ironic storytelling. They probably thought it was a "kick-ass" trailer. That means either the full team has no contemporary feel for storytelling or, even worse, those that do feel like they can't speak up about it. Even for SC2, the self-irony that Heroes of the Storm brought to the table was often more entertaining than the main story. I'm not sure if the audience that bought SC2 for the single-player missions still exists. If not, maybe a less serious approach and more stylized graphics could be an option. We are at a time now when the big IPs like Marvel or Star Wars are not as convincing anymore. Smaller-scale, more personal stories are coming back. No one cares if death lasers threaten the fabric of reality in the multiverse, but if someone cuts their finger with a piece of paper, we can feel the pain. I find this quite an odd statement tbh. I can agree that the trailer wasn't particularly good, but i'd argue that has little to do with the tropes and more with the execution of the cinematic itself. I really don't understand the point about noone taking demons seriously any longer or the idea that certain visual choices aren't working any longer. Where is this idea coming from? | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16714 Posts
On August 25 2023 00:12 Hildegard wrote: Agreed. For me, the most troubling part is that the current team did not recognize how much the trailer was out of touch. It's been over two decades, essentially since Buffy the Vampire Slayer came out, since the idea that ugly looks mean evil and demons are scary doesn't work as non-self-ironic storytelling. They probably thought it was a "kick-ass" trailer. That means either the full team has no contemporary feel for storytelling or, even worse, those that do feel like they can't speak up about it. ya, the place is probably worse than Linus Tech Tips , amirite? if you have direct evidence of work place misconduct at Frost Giant you should present it. At this point you've opened up the door to speculation. So I'll walk through the speculation door for you. Given the age and stage of their careers of the employees it is unlikely the paradigm of "no one listens to the story team cause they didn't graduate from the toughest software engineering program in the country" is there. That goes on at young companies where coders with zero life experience run the show. These guys usually have little past experience in full time professional fields like Insurance, medical, academic, and other well established fields. Therefore, they are usually horrible at building a proper HR department. None of this is the case at Frost Giant. Its a bunch of old guys who've already made their peak money and are working at a hobby job on a low budget game with a low potential revenue ceiling. These guys have resigned themselves to a comfortable income level and are not trying to become billionaires. This creates a totally different atmosphere within a software dev studio relative to a pack of starving 22 year olds working 24/7/365 trying to make their first bag. Therefore, based upon a similar level of pure speculation that you present i must conclude .... it is more likely than not that people passionate about story ideas are not "oppressed". As far as "ugly looks means evil". The bosses and final boss in the latest Zelda game are ugly. Zelda's story is as good as any Zelda story I've seen. Orcs are ugly. Its Orcs versus humans and from the human perspective ... Orcs are evil. In Borderlands 2 and 3 the bosses are ugly. Its pulled off quite effectively by Gearbox. Destiny2 has ugly looking evil bosses. D2:Lightfall's final boss is ugly. D2:Vanilla's final boss is ugly and his ugliness is joked about by Cade6. God of War Ragnarok has a plethora of ugly evil bosses to fight. Using "ugly looks means evil" works just fine in 2023 and it has for many decades. soo, ummmm ya. | ||
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NonY
8748 Posts
It’s been weird seeing the ways in which FGS is innovative or at least modernizing the Blizz-style RTS and the ways in which they are traditional or outdated. Having a 3min generic cinematic trailer done in June ‘22 for a game that’s not coming out until 2025 probably? Is that really appropriate for this game in this age? It seems like 99% of people agree that an RTS making it big in the next decade needs to modernize the gameplay and client in ways that are exciting and attractive to modern players. The fact that SG seems promising in this way is what’s exciting to SC2 players etc. But why shouldn’t every aspect of the game be modernized and exciting and attractive to modern young players? It’s weird to modernize the gameplay and client and then have the art/story/vibe of the game be retro/classic/traditional and aimed at 30+ year olds whose tastes have stopped evolving. I thought they’d have some creatives escaping the yoke of their former employees’ conservative tastes, free to create something new. But I haven’t felt anything promising in that regard except for the infernals track. Tangentially: the silly humor is especially grating to me. It’s about war!! Of course, I expect there to be comic relief. But comic relief isn’t needed until tension has been built. You’ve got human military and demons at war with each other in an apocalyptic setting. What is with the chickens and silly humor and cutesy things etc? The people calling these shots seem utterly clueless to me like the TikToks of people combining random unhealthy ingredients into some disgusting amalgamation and calling it a recipe. Even if the campaign ends up being a great artistic achievement, there’s no defending the artistic direction and structure of the promotional materials. But that all feels like I’m criticizing them for failing to do something that they’re not even trying to do. But why not try to do it well? Just a missed opportunity imo. They’re being propped up by the networking and connections of their industry veteran employees, proceeding in a haphazard way. | ||
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RogerChillingworth
2892 Posts
The lack of modernity seems to exist mostly in FG's marketing and communications materials—in how they're approaching it. It does feel a bit flat and inexpensive, and is probably not reaching the people who would be gobbling up their campaign. So perhaps some incongruency there. But I also think that there's plenty of time to ramp it up. The next 2 years is open season for cooler and cooler things. If they don't take advantage and make cool shit, like ever, then I'm going to be pretty dumbfounded. Feel like step 1 is showing longer gameplay, like full on battle reports between known community members. Really show that the game is fun to play and will reward new players for giving it a shot. This will continue to excite RTS fans and communities of local games. Then as we get further along we can put some real dollars into viral and metafictional content, worldbuilding, etc., to attract a much wider audience. | ||
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teapot_
39 Posts
I'm rather unimpressed / neutral on what we've been publicly shown so far. I'd like to critique their process. I do think they are a bunch of talented people, and I trust they can execute and release a technically sound product. But the motivation of it all is not optimal: we're blizzard rts fans and we want to make a spiritual successor; we're going to involve and listen to the community from the start to make a game you and we love. Is that a good build order? Doubt. So far they followed their promises: - Vaguely copying the form of blizzard cutscenes (trailer), check. - Warcraft 3 trees, check. - Theorycrafting with 1k ppl on reddit to design the game, check. Does the game look good yet? Meh. I fear they treat the community as their de facto boss, as the community will decide their fate after all. They don't seem to be governed by a strong internal vision. Rather, they just try to please the boss. They greatly lack of personnality. They also feel compelled to show the boss progress (even if the quality is not there) to not get fired, or, in this case, keep the community engagement. But it's impossible to please the boss by following their directions when they are inconsistent. And showing questionable work will not help to get a promotion (build 'hype'). I would rather have had them either: - show some more initiative. Build a playable 'midgame stage' prototype (more complete than an alpha with, presumably 2 out of 3 factions and 'hey anything can change it's still the early game'). Rally a more cohesive community behind this concrete product and iterate from more targeted feedback. - Alternatively, build a rich and powerful 'sandbox' rts (more innovative and still partly within blizzard spirit) and let the community build mods and have its own popularity contest. IMO those are two different, but better ways to build and involve the community. Their way is the nightmare mode, and it's going to involve lots of losses (time waste, disappointments). If they do beat the challenge, I'll be happy to celebrate (play and perhaps buy a skin/campaign/whatever). In the meantime, I'll keep on cheering (wishlist on steam). | ||
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RogerChillingworth
2892 Posts
On August 25 2023 23:33 ZeromuS wrote: IDK, I mostly lurk TL nowadays cuz I am busy, older, have kids and working full time. But I personally still like playing single player RTS games and look forward to it, as well as co-op and dabbling without being too committed to 1v1 or 2v2 or whatever comes up. I just don't have the energy to really devote to honing RTS competitive skillsets anymore at this stage in my life, but I do want to dabble and want to feel good while beating up on AI. AI stomps have always been a thing, and adding story and fun mission scenarios to that is, I think, more popular than folks like to think. I think you represent a fair portion of the pop ZeromuS. I hope there's sweet single player content. Fingers crossed xD | ||
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