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Harris1st
Germany6686 Posts
On November 27 2024 11:06 iamperfection wrote: MOBA's are RTS for people that cant macro always have been. Innovation loved playing LoL and was pretty good at it. Are you telling me Innovation can't macro? Are you? | ||
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KobraKay
Portugal4208 Posts
On November 27 2024 18:00 Harris1st wrote: Innovation loved playing LoL and was pretty good at it. Are you telling me Innovation can't macro? Are you? That is not what his comment implies :/ tho | ||
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SoleSteeler
Canada5405 Posts
On November 24 2024 20:56 ETisME wrote: More like a faction of people might have found it fun. It's not JUST the review score, it's both review score and player count that are the signs. Even Silica which is also extreme early access, is doing better in rating (consistently) and slightly worse player count. Ironically Tim just did a talk on early access launch, is he living in a bubble? Everyone been complaining about dog meta, took them long to even balance it. Only now they are testing new maps and no creep camp. At least he's honest about revenue not being there. So one note from this presentation, around 20:20 he does say they've taken on more investment to polish their game to get to their vision of 1.0. We don't have any more info beyond that, but I don't see why FGS would disclose details (much like we don't know much of the details on previous investments). Private company and all, from what I was posting here last week. Relating to Steam reviews, it's definitely not ideal for them but not surprising considering how little and unpolished the content EA launched with. The campaign was majorly unfinished and unpolished. Co-op has a bit more content compared to pre-EA, but in general it needs a lot more to make it fun to play for a long time. 1v1 is certainly playable but needs a lot more to attract a playerbase (obviously, with the current player pool). Graphics/audio need a lot of work. Barely anyone feels attracted to the theme and story, (possibly due to lack of actual lore). We have basically zero lore on Infernals/Celestials, and not much lore for Vanguard either. A bit world building and we have some names of characters. And of course, there's no map editor at all so no customs and no 3v3 (which will be one of their major modes). Whether they can develop a decent story remains to be seen, but the mass playerbase plays the campaign, some customs. Maybe dabbles in 1v1 but "casuals" usually focus on campaign/co-op/team games/customs, of which those three aspects are either lacking (co-op/campaign) or not even in the game (teams/customs). So imagine players who don't post on TL.net, might glance at Reddit, but overall don't know what to expect when EA launches. They get into the game and launch the campaign and see unfinished art, seemingly rushed story, unoriginal campaign missions, poor performance, unpolished art/audio etc. In hindsight, it makes perfect sense for the game to have bad reviews. Think of Day9's 1/10 review (paraphrasing) "based on what he sees at this time". Hopefully they listen and really polish the art/audio, make a cool story, add a ton of content, make 1v1 more enticing, etc. There's folks that say "we said all this before and they didn't listen, why would they now?" It's a good point - we'll see how much they do listen. If they do in fact have funding to 1.0 now, based on their pretty disastrous launch I would expect pretty major changes going forward. It might take time though, as we see with them delaying 0.2.0. | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1289 Posts
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SoleSteeler
Canada5405 Posts
But in general I don't think FGS is as dumb or naïve as the general redditor thinks they are. | ||
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ETisME
12259 Posts
There's no so called blizzard style RTS, they are all extremely different in how they play. Even taking away the difference in hero system, Warcraft 3 has a built in "less responsive" but adding to complexity of micro mechanics than sc2. I have gave them huge feedback a long time ago: Energy system is not innovative. Top bar abilities are not interesting. Destructible tree system feels tacked on. Creep camp mechanics messes with resource balance and limit map design and generally not interesting. Units don't have interesting dynamic. Weird and inconsistent TTK. Incoherent design language. So much of the mechanics are not really integrated, but slapped on. But worst of all is them not even doing major patches to test things. Look at how long they took to address dog meta, as if there's some dedicated refined meta they don't want to touch. Only now they are rushing in to test map size and address some other issues (but they don't even have full release of T3 yet) I have said it before, but all stormgate has going is a nice marketing pump and the responsive engine. Take that away and it's pretty much the least innovative and refined RTS out of all the new ones, and just so blend. In contrast, just on the energy system alone: gate of pyre energy system is a third resource you have to do creep camps to earn (with some being mined over time and some being one time bonus). You can even summon a time limited hero unit to level up with any kills, converting the energy into a permanent bonus essentially. Zerospace has tones of customisation that is far too long to even list. | ||
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_Spartak_
Turkey389 Posts
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SoleSteeler
Canada5405 Posts
Sometimes more complex isn't better though, in my opinion. Even though ZS has tons of choices, they might have a tough time making sure every choice is valid. But SG can do with some more risk/experimental stuff for sure. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9341 Posts
On November 28 2024 22:52 _Spartak_ wrote: For all the customization ZS offers, SG factions and armies feel a lot more different in combat. Pretty much every single engagement in ZS consists of two mobile armies going back and forth with the occassional aoe spell. Same with BA (minus spells). Stormgate (and Immortal to be fair to it) are the only RTSes that can match Blizzard RTS unit and combat design so far. ZS definitely needs what I call "positional units". Units that when placed in a spot becomes very effectiv - even in small numbers. What RTS games don't need are slow-moving cost-effective units. These units tend to be deathbally because they are too slow too retreat and because they are still more mobile than "positional units" they are not as cost-effective in small numbers vs a large enemy deathball. The reason I am so pessimistic on behalf of all the RTS is that while they get some things right, they imo make clear mistakes in different areas that to me indicates they don't really "get" how you make an exciting competitive RTS. Some of these "mistakes" are fixable, however, I question whether they have the internal knowhow to properly fix them and other potential issues in the future if they don't realized them in the first place. | ||
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_Spartak_
Turkey389 Posts
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ETisME
12259 Posts
On November 29 2024 03:30 _Spartak_ wrote: ZS does have some positional units. The problem is they are not all that useful when all matches boil down to controlling the middle due to the huge advantage towers and rich flux give you. As long as that is the case, viable compositions will be all about mobility. There is not much difference in playstyles for that reason (despite all the aforementioned customization options). Or you can make positional units so overpowered that they are still useful but then you run the risk of making them very annoying to play against. Kinda like mortars in BA. Not really. Map design wise, the XP tower is always on route to all entry to the opponent base ramp. If you watch the grand final, you'd see there's very little occasion where one player can control all xp towers, let alone mobility is the strongest comp. The battles actually happens a lot at the ramps, not at the centre. You also do have strong siege units like thresher and snipers and other Merc units, it's just how you building it. The bigger reason why you may think mobility is THE strategy is because of the tier 1 and tier 1.5 units. The economy model simply encourage all players to build lots of tier 1 and 1.5 which are naturally quite mobile. That doesn't mean there aren't strong tankier units, terror tank is still fairly mobile, just not as mobile as other units necessarily. Either way zerospace is build to be constant battles and micro with customisation mechanics, the system works perfectly fine. I am in the alpha and the things they changed up would never have been possible in stormgate. Same with battle aces massive change to the point they considered you must have anti air tier 1. | ||
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SoleSteeler
Canada5405 Posts
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_Spartak_
Turkey389 Posts
The battles actually happens a lot at the ramps, not at the centre. I didn't say that battles happen in the middle all the time. I said controlling the middle of the map is very important due to XP towers and rich flux. That's what makes the game have constant battles like you say. I don't think that is all that great. It makes it so that there are no different playstyles and all matches play out in a similar way. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6686 Posts
On November 28 2024 00:59 KobraKay wrote: That is not what his comment implies :/ tho I know but the comment was stupid so I responded with a low effort troll post myself ^^' | ||
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ETisME
12259 Posts
On November 29 2024 14:55 _Spartak_ wrote: I didn't say that battles happen in the middle all the time. I said controlling the middle of the map is very important due to XP towers and rich flux. That's what makes the game have constant battles like you say. I don't think that is all that great. It makes it so that there are no different playstyles and all matches play out in a similar way. but it doesn't work exactly that way, different faction and tech tree including merc give different power spike at different stage of the game. It just looks like it's played out the same way, the actual gameplay is very dynamic. The game is built around having lots of units engaging, back and forth, and not super snowbally. Whether it's your RTS, that's a whole different matter, at least it has an identity which the same can't be said for SG | ||
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moomin22
29 Posts
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_Spartak_
Turkey389 Posts
On November 29 2024 19:28 ETisME wrote: I am sure it feels better when playing and there is lots of decisionmaking going on. The initial point was about unit and faction design though and ZeroSpace feels too samey atm for me in those regards. I would rather have fewer choices/customization options with each one being more unique.but it doesn't work exactly that way, different faction and tech tree including merc give different power spike at different stage of the game. It just looks like it's played out the same way, the actual gameplay is very dynamic. The game is built around having lots of units engaging, back and forth, and not super snowbally. Whether it's your RTS, that's a whole different matter, at least it has an identity which the same can't be said for SG | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16373 Posts
On November 29 2024 20:33 moomin22 wrote: Its a relief to have the high level zerospace and battle aces player Spartak here to explain how to play those games It is great having the definition of 'fun' outlined in erudite prose. I started playing Northgard again. It is $3 on Steam. I am having fun. No idea how Stormgate will be able to compete with the plethora of RTS options on Steam. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9341 Posts
On November 29 2024 06:48 ETisME wrote: Not really. Map design wise, the XP tower is always on route to all entry to the opponent base ramp. If you watch the grand final, you'd see there's very little occasion where one player can control all xp towers, let alone mobility is the strongest comp. The battles actually happens a lot at the ramps, not at the centre. https://youtu.be/T9I4g-bWb7o?si=VrCYgp-fLylzRzK5 You also do have strong siege units like thresher and snipers and other Merc units, it's just how you building it. The bigger reason why you may think mobility is THE strategy is because of the tier 1 and tier 1.5 units. The economy model simply encourage all players to build lots of tier 1 and 1.5 which are naturally quite mobile. That doesn't mean there aren't strong tankier units, terror tank is still fairly mobile, just not as mobile as other units necessarily. Either way zerospace is build to be constant battles and micro with customisation mechanics, the system works perfectly fine. I am in the alpha and the things they changed up would never have been possible in stormgate. Same with battle aces massive change to the point they considered you must have anti air tier 1. But this is exactly what you don't want in a game. You dont want the "slower"/beefier units like a Thor/Colossus. Those units are too slow to split up and not cost effective enough in smaller numbers to be used as a positional unit. I think it's core to RTS games that players can secure different locations around the map. An opponent should be able to break the location but in doing so he will trade cost ineffectively. For me this is such a simple concept; Make RTS games where players trade locations around the map for resources. But none of the current RTS games in development seems to really get this. Otherwise the gameplay becomes only deathball vs deathball + some harass opportunities dependent on how strong harass options are. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23673 Posts
On November 30 2024 06:47 JimmyJRaynor wrote: It is great having the definition of 'fun' outlined in erudite prose. I started playing Northgard again. It is $3 on Steam. I am having fun. No idea how Stormgate will be able to compete with the plethora of RTS options on Steam. It’s a tall order but all they, or some of this current generation of in-development RTS games of this vague style, have to do is be that kind of game you could see yourself playing regularly for years. Easier said than done, but that feels the niche these games need to hit. There’s stiff competition, there’s a lot of good stuff on the market. Speaking personally a lot of those titles, especially the indies, I usually have a good time, they’re good games. But in addition to that it’s that kind of ‘I had my fun, got my x amount of pound’s worth of enjoyment, time to try something else’. Nothing wrong with that, equally nothing quite scratches that itch that WC3 and subsequently SC2 did where I kept coming back for years and years and played a metric fuckton of them | ||
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