EPTStormgate/Frost Giant Megathread - Page 167
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PurE)Rabbit-SF
United States685 Posts
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17486 Posts
On August 23 2024 01:20 PurE)Rabbit-SF wrote: Who the hell even reads IGN and ScreenRant, like what the hell is ScreenRant even, I'd never heard of em. as far as IGN goes.. at least 2 people in this thread. FG put ScreenRant in their Steam promo. otherwise, i've never heard of them either. then when they gave BM:W a 6/10 i heard of them again. ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/sKuo5Wd.jpeg) "This is Squad 51! Dr. Bracket we're requesting an immediate defibrillation with D5W and ringer's lactate!" | ||
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gingerfluffmuffnr2
107 Posts
Just silly all around | ||
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Luolis
Finland7166 Posts
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gingerfluffmuffnr2
107 Posts
On August 23 2024 01:25 JimmyJRaynor wrote: Positive reviews now sit at 51%. "This is Squad 51! Dr. Bracket we're requesting an immediate defibrillation with D5W and ringer's lactate!" "Fuck that, inject 10mil of $" | ||
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SoleSteeler
Canada5459 Posts
On August 23 2024 03:10 Luolis wrote: Yeah i dunno, i genuinely enjoy the game still but the outlook is so bad and the negative community response compounds on that it just makes me feel like its probably not even worth it to commit my time to the game because itll die immediately anyway. This is so fucking depressing. I'm in a similar boat: I know people will just say, "if you enjoy it, play it! It doesn't matter what others think" but it's very true that all the negativity will cause others to most likely stay away. People are so damn passionate about hating the game - if I don't like a game, I just ignore it. I guess people are passionate about it because they actually do want a new, good RTS to play. The criticisms are valid, nevertheless. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9433 Posts
On June 02 2024 16:53 Hider wrote: I think it's likely Frostgiant closes operations a year from now. I struggle to see the path for success with their expenses + the little hype/interest in the game. With campaign release they can probably bring in a bit more money to keep it going for some additional months. But my expectations is that player base will be small and probably declining after the initial release --> no VC's are interested in further financing it and they are running on net deficit without any cash reserves. Immortals Gates of Pyre and plausibly Zerospace (although this runs on much lower budget so more likely to be sustainable at a niche) are likely to run into a similar destiny. When we look back 12-18 months from now I hope the learning is that you can't take the existing RTS genre and merely make small modifications to it while reducing the skill-cap. Crossing my fingers that David Kim will succeed - based on early feedback I am more optimistic on behalf of his game than I ever been on any of the other 3 RTS games. Not the worst prediction I made. Although, instead of emphasizing the reduction in skill-cap I should have focussed more on what Day9 says "spikes in engagement". That's similar to what I refer to as "outplays". I think making plays that can result in spikes is what draws and keeps people in a micro-focussed RTS (and MOBA's as well). Stormgate isn't the only type of game that suffers from this, Immortals Gates of pyre, zerospace and Battle Aces also suffers from this to different degree. I don't think either of them really "gets" the importance of this. Here is another comment by me from over 2 years ago just after they released the trailer: On June 14 2022 04:28 Hider wrote: A mistake I think every single past RTS studio has made is thinking that you can maintain the skillcap of a game like Sc2 by "reducing the speed of everything". However, the skillcap is generally correlated with the speed of primarily unit movement speed +responsiveness but also too some extent lethality. So if you both take away macromechanics and slow down everything, the game becomes uninteresting. It's definitely a possibility that Stormgate will fall into the same trap. If they make everything move and die much slower, they will have to compensate with more ability/spell-casting (wc3 micro) which I am not a fan of. As long as they maintain high movement speed of units and don't decrease lethality too much I think it can work though. So the sudden realization that Stormgate is kinda blend while neither Wc3 or Sc2 shouldn't have come as a surprise to anyone. If you mix Wc3 and Sc2 game speed, but don't add any type of the dynamics that Wc3 has, the game becomes more blend. It's honestly amazes me that Stormgate didn't realize it and I think the other RTS games are walking straight into the same trap. What RTS needs to get right immediately is micro. Nothing else in the game matters if you don't make this part awesome. | ||
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gingerfluffmuffnr2
107 Posts
On June 03 2024 20:36 _Spartak_ wrote: Frost Giant has done a great job with marketing. They barely spent any money and reached over 500k wishlists on Steam, currently the 38th most wishlisted upcoming game. They have a good number of followers on all of their social media accounts as well. Not to mention their record breaking KS campaign. By all metrics, they did a very good job spreading the word. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany7167 Posts
All this ia true. I guess they have a pretty good unique Player Count as well. They just cant retain the players | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17486 Posts
On August 23 2024 03:21 SoleSteeler wrote: People are so damn passionate about hating the game - if I don't like a game, I just ignore it. I guess people are passionate about it because they actually do want a new, good RTS to play. The criticisms are valid, nevertheless. The video game industry has done many unethical and illegal things over the past 40+ years. They've done some really brutal things on a mass scale. This gains them a certain reputation and also attracts a certain type of person who will want to work and/or consume product from an industry with a checkered past. Its not like video game makers are on a quest for the improved health and well being of their customers. Video game makers promise huge thrills and amazing peak moments that will go on and on for years to come. So, when they shut the servers down... or include gambling mechanics declared illegal but they keep them in the game any way telling the government they are wrong. Or get told game rentals are legal and NIntendo presses every legal button to fuck over people who want to rent games. Welp, this is the result. Zero trust with many people who've been burned by Mattel in the 70s, Nintendo and Atari in the 80s, etc etc. You end up with a hedonistic, thrill seeking, mistrustful customer base who celebrates failure when lofty promises are not fulfilled. as ye reap so shall ye sow. On August 23 2024 04:36 Harris1st wrote: They just cant retain the players "Coffee is for closers". They can't close the deal. Samwise Didier worked with Frost Giant for a bit. In homage to his brilliant work I'll borrow a quote from a movie that has a quote he lives by. | ||
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gingerfluffmuffnr2
107 Posts
On August 23 2024 04:36 Harris1st wrote: All this ia true. I guess they have a pretty good unique Player Count as well. They just cant retain the players I thought about all the controversy they so clumsily handled | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26737 Posts
On August 23 2024 03:26 Hider wrote: Not the worst prediction I made. Although, instead of emphasizing the reduction in skill-cap I should have focussed more on what Day9 says "spikes in engagement". That's similar to what I refer to as "outplays". I think making plays that can result in spikes is what draws and keeps people in a micro-focussed RTS (and MOBA's as well). Stormgate isn't the only type of game that suffers from this, Immortals Gates of pyre, zerospace and Battle Aces also suffers from this to different degree. I don't think either of them really "gets" the importance of this. Here is another comment by me from over 2 years ago just after they released the trailer: So the sudden realization that Stormgate is kinda blend while neither Wc3 or Sc2 shouldn't have come as a surprise to anyone. If you mix Wc3 and Sc2 game speed, but don't add any type of the dynamics that Wc3 has, the game becomes more blend. It's honestly amazes me that Stormgate didn't realize it and I think the other RTS games are walking straight into the same trap. What RTS needs to get right immediately is micro. Nothing else in the game matters if you don't make this part awesome. Most RTS games I’ve played in the age of unlimited unit selection suffer from a similar ailment. Ranged balls scale up far better than melee units Just because a unit is fun to micro, doesn’t mean all interactions involving it are engaging. Bio is fun as fuck to micro in SC2, it’s not always the most fun to micro against as well, you can’t really. Past a point you need potent AoE Stormgate seems to fall into a similar trap, only more so. AoE isn’t as potent, and instead of having one faction having the microable, kiteable ranged units, they all seem to have one (to varying degrees). So you see a lot of games, least from what I’ve seen of the odd tournament of skirmish, kite, run away if disadvantaged. Stutter step into retreating enemy if you’re in the ascendency. BW, WC3 (and I’m sure others, those are the ones I’m more familiar with) somewhat got around this by various factors. UI constraints, heroes, smaller armies in play, less clumping etc. To take one example, WC3 Archers are a glass cannon, high damage unit, but they can’t stutter step on a dime, they’re slow as well as squishy. You can get on top of them with a speed scroll. AoE works extremely well. You can counter attempts to jump your archers with good positioning and judicious use of your own hero. Bio in SC2, see about 3 units in SG. Low damage point, decent move speed, you can basically just kite most units infinitely, if you control it perfectly. Especially, especially the Exo. It’s not something I even know how to fix or have great suggestions on, but it’s something I’ve found with quite a few more modern RTS games. Stormgate isn’t new in this regard but as yet it doesn’t appear to have found a solution either | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26737 Posts
On August 23 2024 03:10 Luolis wrote: Yeah i dunno, i genuinely enjoy the game still but the outlook is so bad and the negative community response compounds on that it just makes me feel like its probably not even worth it to commit my time to the game because itll die immediately anyway. This is so fucking depressing. Feel you there bro, it feels I’ve been kicked in the fucking balls twice in the last couple of years. I thought worst case Warcraft Reforged would be a fun retread of probably my favourite game ever, best case would be a breath of new life and some new intake. Had a bunch of SC2 vets pumped to give it a try as we’re all burned out on SC2 and is convinced them of WC3’s greatness. We know how that went. Stormgate, we’re all pumped for something new to play… Hey hopefully they can turn the ship around | ||
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Hider
Denmark9433 Posts
On August 23 2024 05:54 WombaT wrote: Most RTS games I’ve played in the age of unlimited unit selection suffer from a similar ailment. Ranged balls scale up far better than melee units Just because a unit is fun to micro, doesn’t mean all interactions involving it are engaging. Bio is fun as fuck to micro in SC2, it’s not always the most fun to micro against as well, you can’t really. Past a point you need potent AoE Stormgate seems to fall into a similar trap, only more so. AoE isn’t as potent, and instead of having one faction having the microable, kiteable ranged units, they all seem to have one (to varying degrees). So you see a lot of games, least from what I’ve seen of the odd tournament of skirmish, kite, run away if disadvantaged. Stutter step into retreating enemy if you’re in the ascendency. BW, WC3 (and I’m sure others, those are the ones I’m more familiar with) somewhat got around this by various factors. UI constraints, heroes, smaller armies in play, less clumping etc. To take one example, WC3 Archers are a glass cannon, high damage unit, but they can’t stutter step on a dime, they’re slow as well as squishy. You can get on top of them with a speed scroll. AoE works extremely well. You can counter attempts to jump your archers with good positioning and judicious use of your own hero. Bio in SC2, see about 3 units in SG. Low damage point, decent move speed, you can basically just kite most units infinitely, if you control it perfectly. Especially, especially the Exo. It’s not something I even know how to fix or have great suggestions on, but it’s something I’ve found with quite a few more modern RTS games. Stormgate isn’t new in this regard but as yet it doesn’t appear to have found a solution either Infinitive Kiting is not good game design in my opinion. I did a lot of work with modding Sc2 many years ago and experiemnted with tweaks of almost all types of stats to see the effect it has on micro. My general conclusions were: * Design/balance the game around ranged units by default having 0 damage point. This simply feels good and makes it possible for top players to better express their skill. * Melee unit movement speed must be very fast to compensate. And the more clucnky they are, the faster they probably need to be. Ultras are too slow in Sc2 imo. I find it interesting watching the BW vs SC2 mod and Ultras in BW feels so much better. Movement speed is something that must be very carefully tweaked/designed so it makes sense throughout all phases of the game. I would argue right now in Sc2 zealots are too slow in the early game. It would benefit from some type of pre-chage fast-to-research cyber core movement speed upgrade. But also, just making post-charge Zealot faser (instead of charge) feels better. Stormgate providing buffs to movement speed if you take certain camps - I am very much against this idea because it completely changes micro interactions. And ranged movement speed vs melee movement speed is something that must be very carefully balanced. You can't add a temporary +20% movement speed in certain situations to ranged units and expect micro to still "work". In general Stormgate has way way too much kiting. Sc2 isn't perfect in that regard either but Stormgate way worse. But even if Stormgate got kiting right, it still suffers from non-interesting micro in larger engagements. So I think the core issues run very deep in this game. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9433 Posts
However, that's not only due to TTK but more due to lack of natural defenders advantage. I saw Beastyqt complain about how he is tired of the "Starcraft gameplay" where if you didn't exactly scout right or don't nail the build order you lose the game. And he disliked that about Stomgate. I completely agree with this. For me a modern RTS take would be to make each battle very volatile in outcome with big spike in the reward of micro. But very rarely an engagement would take a 50-50 game into a 90-10 game state. So massively increase the natural defenders advantage and instead ensure engagements happen across the map. | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1906 Posts
On August 23 2024 00:43 SoleSteeler wrote: No patch notes up yet - probably not for a few more hours. Server goes down for the patch at 2 PM PST / 5 PM EST. 5 hours later still waiting  what happened to posting them before a patch :/ or what the balance council does they PROPOSE a balance patch before implementing it and get community feedback. 🤦♂️ I haven't played the game for the last 4 or 5 days because of how bad I perceive the balance. I don't find partings argent rush very fun either and don't want to play that. Same with vector cheese bs. And before anyone says skill issue, YES, I'm not the best player, and there is plenty I can't still improve on. But balance AT MY LEVEL is not fun for me. Just like protoss op in mid gm but sucks against Serral/Clem. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17486 Posts
On August 23 2024 06:43 CicadaSC wrote: balance AT MY LEVEL is not fun for me. Just like protoss op in mid gm but sucks against Serral/Clem. It is very difficult to balance a 3-race diverse-race RTS on multiple levels. I just accept that the game will be imbalanced at whatever level I am playing. I figure tolerating imbalance makes it possible to play diverse race games. | ||
Waxangel
United States33592 Posts
Update today with some some announcements. The biggest thing I noticed was: "Addressing art, audio, and more Early Access, like our previous development phases, is about improving the game with each release as we move towards achieving our vision for 1.0. That said, we’re well aware that many players had higher expectations in terms of art and audio for our day one Early Access release, so we’re going to dedicate significant efforts to improving key areas that players have identified need additional work. We’re going to be updating the body proportions for the unit models in our in-game cutscenes and reworking Amara’s character design. We’re also going to be making changes to our map visuals that we’re excited to roll out for you all to see." While it's hard to know what exactly this entails, I think this is the first time they're acknowledging that the "stylized" art isn't working? Will have to see the exact changes to know for sure, but MAYBE it's a mindset shift in the right direction. | ||
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SoleSteeler
Canada5459 Posts
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PurE)Rabbit-SF
United States685 Posts
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