EPTBattle Aces/David Kim RTS Megathread - Page 43
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Vision_
875 Posts
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Agh
United States1044 Posts
On July 08 2024 19:47 ETisME wrote: Wasp being that low is really surprising, the amount of utility they give feels so OP. Recalls make them obsolete. And it's still a 3 action defense for the same (but usually 5-6 to be truly effective) for the wasp attack. They're good for punishing slower players but that's about it. If anything I'd bump their unit size down ever so slightly (basically allowing one extra wasp to attack workers when surrounded in ideal conditions). This would funnily enough make them even worse vs AoE but their offensive capabibility is lacking in both combat and harassment. | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1904 Posts
On July 09 2024 18:24 Agh wrote: Recalls make them obsolete. And it's still a 3 action defense for the same (but usually 5-6 to be truly effective) for the wasp attack. They're good for punishing slower players but that's about it. If anything I'd bump their unit size down ever so slightly (basically allowing one extra wasp to attack workers when surrounded in ideal conditions). This would funnily enough make them even worse vs AoE but their offensive capabibility is lacking in both combat and harassment. I use the wasp as my main tier 1. I think though you don't want to fight with them unless you created some sort of advantage. If you're vsing mass recalls a good strat I like to use is heavy pressure with 2 control groups at the start threatening both their bases, then at their natural before their resource nodes are up you want to group up outside of fog of war and push it all at once. If they try to defend you surround, they recall to their main and then you can suicide dive on to their natural resources as they should be spawning if you timed it right. If you can't force them off their natural then go back to 2 control groups. Wait for your tier 2 and play a normal game. Generally since you have the weaker direct engagement tier 1 I like to play defensive and "force mistakes" in the mid game. One great way is if you are being pushed at your third instead of directly engaging you cut off their reinforcements. I can't even remember how many times I've gotten free destroyers doing this. Overall I think the unit has a lot of potential. | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1904 Posts
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Excalibur_Z
United States12242 Posts
On July 09 2024 19:55 CicadaSC wrote: I think this game is really fun but the player count was kind of alarming. I get it's a closed beta but they were giving keys pretty liberally. I think they need to add more to attract the casual player. Right now it is mostly the hardcore audience that is interested. I think stormgate got it right by prioritizing campaign, co-op, and custom games with the map editor. David Kim was on blizzard surely he knows co-op was the most popular mode right? But that's not where he existed in the team. He talked to top pros - Korean and international - on a daily basis. His approach to unit design and balance was influenced not only by ultra-high-APM players but also by his own high level of skill. He revels in emergent skill expression and the concept of an infinite skill ceiling. I think one big discovery for me in the flaw with this approach is the idea of hopelessness. I try to remember what BW was like when I was first starting out. Player micro was uncommon. Advanced tricks weren't really there. As such -- short of cheeses -- games never felt unwinnable. Compare that to SC2, where things like strong Reaper harassment, Widow Mine drops, Phoenix micro, and skilled Blink micro can make a game feel hopeless and frustrating. Players developed these skills over time in BW and David Kim leaned more and more into them as the focus for a successful multiplayer game. But what this actually does is it isolates newcomers who feel like they need these skills to survive - even when they really don't! This is what creates the narrative of a game that's too bothersome to learn, with too high a skill floor. | ||
Waxangel
United States33592 Posts
On July 09 2024 22:40 Excalibur_Z wrote: But that's not where he existed in the team. He talked to top pros - Korean and international - on a daily basis. His approach to unit design and balance was influenced not only by ultra-high-APM players but also by his own high level of skill. He revels in emergent skill expression and the concept of an infinite skill ceiling. I think one big discovery for me in the flaw with this approach is the idea of hopelessness. I try to remember what BW was like when I was first starting out. Player micro was uncommon. Advanced tricks weren't really there. As such -- short of cheeses -- games never felt unwinnable. Compare that to SC2, where things like strong Reaper harassment, Widow Mine drops, Phoenix micro, and skilled Blink micro can make a game feel hopeless and frustrating. Players developed these skills over time in BW and David Kim leaned more and more into them as the focus for a successful multiplayer game. But what this actually does is it isolates newcomers who feel like they need these skills to survive - even when they really don't! This is what creates the narrative of a game that's too bothersome to learn, with too high a skill floor. It's got nothing to do with the inherent mechanics of the games, but rather with games having a large enough cohort of new players that can learn together without being smashed by skilled players. Try asking someone trying to get into BW in the present day about how 'hopeless' it feels. It's the natural life cycle for games, whether it's tic tac toe or RTS. | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1904 Posts
On July 09 2024 22:40 Excalibur_Z wrote: But that's not where he existed in the team. He talked to top pros - Korean and international - on a daily basis. His approach to unit design and balance was influenced not only by ultra-high-APM players but also by his own high level of skill. He revels in emergent skill expression and the concept of an infinite skill ceiling. I mean sure, he can love skill expression all he wants I just mean he is aware that that was the case, right? It's odd not to leverage that knowledge when building a game in the same genre. | ||
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KingzTig
155 Posts
On July 09 2024 18:24 Agh wrote: Recalls make them obsolete. And it's still a 3 action defense for the same (but usually 5-6 to be truly effective) for the wasp attack. They're good for punishing slower players but that's about it. If anything I'd bump their unit size down ever so slightly (basically allowing one extra wasp to attack workers when surrounded in ideal conditions). This would funnily enough make them even worse vs AoE but their offensive capabibility is lacking in both combat and harassment. Wasps has some of the strongest 1 base all in now. And they are cheap enough to treat as disposable. Workers take one min to rebuild itself, so it's almost always good trade for wasp players. | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1904 Posts
On July 10 2024 08:22 KingzTig wrote: Wasps has some of the strongest 1 base all in now. And they are cheap enough to treat as disposable. Workers take one min to rebuild itself, so it's almost always good trade for wasp players. i gotta try 1 base wasp all-in. is the premise you take out the natural then expand on your own? Because if the opponent sits units inbetween main minerals i dont see how u break them. | ||
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KingzTig
155 Posts
On July 10 2024 08:24 CicadaSC wrote: i got to try 1 base wasp all-in. is the premise you take out the natural then expand on your own? Because if the opponent sits units inbetween main minerals i dont see how u break them. I have faced a few version. I think the deadliest right now is the swift shocker wasps one base all in. If the other player went for fast expansion, it's very hard to hold and not get swarmed and out tech. But they are still behind even if they give up the natural. Swift shocker does so well against most units | ||
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Agh
United States1044 Posts
On July 10 2024 00:06 Waxangel wrote: It's got nothing to do with the inherent mechanics of the games, but rather with games having a large enough cohort of new players that can learn together without being smashed by skilled players. Try asking someone trying to get into BW in the present day about how 'hopeless' it feels. It's the natural life cycle for games, whether it's tic tac toe or RTS. I don't think that really holds true in current year. There are infinite resources and guides to aid newer players that will immediately catapult them to their mechanical limits -- then it's just about grinding and practicing. In the case of battle aces you aren't going to get repeatedly knowledge checked like you are with a traditional RTS. It's going to happen once or twice sure, but it's mostly a binary feedback loop that is extremely difficult to misinterpret. My wow friend with absolutely 0 RTS playing experience was able to get near 6k in about a week. He just copy pasted my deck and imitates things from our discord streams, and still doesn't use control groups lmao. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26621 Posts
On July 10 2024 12:07 Agh wrote: I don't think that really holds true in current year. There are infinite resources and guides to aid newer players that will immediately catapult them to their mechanical limits -- then it's just about grinding and practicing. In the case of battle aces you aren't going to get repeatedly knowledge checked like you are with a traditional RTS. It's going to happen once or twice sure, but it's mostly a binary feedback loop that is extremely difficult to misinterpret. My wow friend with absolutely 0 RTS playing experience was able to get near 6k in about a week. He just copy pasted my deck and imitates things from our discord streams, and still doesn't use control groups lmao. How good is 6K for reference? Like what SC league would it approximate to? Interested to hear from some RTS noobs, even if it’s just by proxy. I think Wax’s point was more about having a sufficiently noob player pool, so one can enter and take advantage of the myriad resources and have a good time doing so. Quake and Brood War are both games I’d love to play for example, but I just don’t have the time to grind and grind, look up builds in the case of the latter etc just to be in the position of not getting stomped. Whereas as a kid I had a grand old time, hell I played Brood War online mouse only as a pre-pubescent and it was sweet. If a game is good, sucking at it and gradually learning is not really a problem if you have sufficient players around you who also suck. I think it’s one of the most critical things to the success or otherwise of any of these upcoming titles. I can’t think of any competitive-focused game that’s ever got off the ground without it. It just lets a player organically grow, experiment and just have a fun time with a game without having to essentially spend time out the game studying. | ||
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KingzTig
155 Posts
I am diamond 3 races back in hots, Plat in lotv Korean server few months ago on my main race I just broke 3K in battle aces (Korean server), though my deck is barely optimised. | ||
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Agh
United States1044 Posts
On July 10 2024 12:53 WombaT wrote: How good is 6K for reference? Like what SC league would it approximate to? Interested to hear from some RTS noobs, even if it’s just by proxy. I think Wax’s point was more about having a sufficiently noob player pool, so one can enter and take advantage of the myriad resources and have a good time doing so. Quake and Brood War are both games I’d love to play for example, but I just don’t have the time to grind and grind, look up builds in the case of the latter etc just to be in the position of not getting stomped. Whereas as a kid I had a grand old time, hell I played Brood War online mouse only as a pre-pubescent and it was sweet. If a game is good, sucking at it and gradually learning is not really a problem if you have sufficient players around you who also suck. I think it’s one of the most critical things to the success or otherwise of any of these upcoming titles. I can’t think of any competitive-focused game that’s ever got off the ground without it. It just lets a player organically grow, experiment and just have a fun time with a game without having to essentially spend time out the game studying. Hard to gauge since it's a bit inflationary by nature, I'd guess in the diamond to lower master spectrum. I'm aware of the point it's just that the gaming landscape isn't that way anymore. The only way to maintain and foster user growth in a game is to have several different avenues for players to explore. (eg. custom games, campaigns, co-op, etc). Not really sure if Battle Aces will capture this, I know Stormgate is at least making an effort. Unfortunately going out of your way in an attempt to cater to the ultra casual player in a competitive game or mode just creates a myriad of issues. Those players are the least invested and usually the first out, and potential changes can infringe on what made something 'fun' in the first place. I think it boils down to being more of a societal issue than anything gaming related. The overwhelming lean towards inclusion and participation trophies, and desire (and expectation) for instant gratification has taken its toll. If a game or sport was remotely interesting to me growing up and I had a way to experience 'losing' that was all the motivation I needed to fuel my interest and desire to improve and understand. tl;dr just make a good game obv | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1904 Posts
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MegaBuster
167 Posts
I thought this response was interesting on the topic of 'will you allow people to speak to other people' Muzzlemaster General at Uncapped Games The toxicity element was certainly one of our considerations when assessing methods of communication in our game but we also understand we need to facilitate some level of communication between players. In a future phase, we plan to have a system of emotes in our game that will hopefully assist in giving players ways to express themselves in a number of ways during matches. here's what I think about that: 🤐🤐🤖⚔️🚁🤐🤐 😈💰💰💰👿 ♆𖤐♆ 💥🔥🌍🔥☠️☠️☠️ | ||
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Agh
United States1044 Posts
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17467 Posts
On July 11 2024 10:49 Agh wrote: The coddling really never ends. What a time to be alive. I prefer zero chatting//forums that way the developer never has to waste resources playing global morality cop. Players, and groups of players are free to make their own self governed Discord channels. I think at 1 point Blizzard outlawed the NBA 3 point symbol; currently, the 5,000 year old Wolfpac high-5 I've been doing since I was 12 is somehow hate speech. So ya. With constant layoffs game makers need to stick to ... actually.. .you know ... uhh... making games. Leave the philosophy seminars to Noam Chomsky. | ||
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MegaBuster
167 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26621 Posts
On July 11 2024 10:49 Agh wrote: The coddling really never ends. What a time to be alive. I mean I do also blame the ‘it’s the internet so I’ll be obnoxious as possible because I have no impulse control’ crowd Still a fucking daft call. Just make it elective if you wanna global mute or not, and a ‘your opponent does not have chat enabled’ alert so people aren’t talking into the void unknowingly. It’s such an easy thing to do that broadly satisfies everyone. | ||
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