EPTFrom a difficulty/XP gain standpoint, I can see how impossible it is to balance. You'd have to account for people who would just get 1 of everything and maybe a few random battles here and there (I think this is closer to how many people play the conventional pokemon games). But then that leaves the game overly easy for people who just go around capturing everything they see (which is probably closer to the intended way to play)
Nintendo Switch Thread - Page 118
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Purind
Canada3562 Posts
From a difficulty/XP gain standpoint, I can see how impossible it is to balance. You'd have to account for people who would just get 1 of everything and maybe a few random battles here and there (I think this is closer to how many people play the conventional pokemon games). But then that leaves the game overly easy for people who just go around capturing everything they see (which is probably closer to the intended way to play) | ||
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Faruko
Chile34173 Posts
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Faruko
Chile34173 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
Really the only things that meaningfully affect the difficulty of a Pokemon game are a) the relative level of opposing Pokemon compared to typical means of XP acquisition, and b) the relative ease with which you can acquire Pokemon with balanced typing/movesets. Point A is a product of how much the player chooses to grind or not, and point B has been a triviality going back to gen 3/4 ever since we started getting dual-type starters that naturally learn multiple powerful complementary STAB moves. Gen 1/2/5 are the only gens really that have starters that are remotely limited by their movesets in any way. | ||
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Faruko
Chile34173 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35174 Posts
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Purind
Canada3562 Posts
- Getting Huge Power on Azurill or Bunnelby obviously matters (though maybe that's a bad example as it's an ability you want always and doesn't really add depth to the game) - Which ability you get on Sandile (Intimidate or Moxie) changes the way you play the game - Sturdy Geodude is probably the most obvious, most annoying example of an ability impacting a single player game - Levitate and others like Flash Fire, Heatproof etc... changes what you can switch into. Whether you get Levitate or Heatproof on Bronzong, for example, changes the way you play Bronzong I'm not really against no-item no-ability competitive in Let's Go either. I think it has potential and it'll end up being more stable. No clue how fun it will be as I haven't played it yet, but I don't think it would be bad. The only thing I don't like is having no items AND having Megas | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
- Levitate and others like Flash Fire, Heatproof etc... changes what you can switch into. Whether you get Levitate or Heatproof on Bronzong, for example, changes the way you play Bronzong This is an example of what I mean--taking attitudes toward things that would matter in competitive play and extrapolating them into the single-player game. Because the AI never switches anyway and never actively tries to avoid disadvantages, abilities like this that are *theoretically* useful are never *practically* relevant. The type of switching that you would do in a competitive match is basically never productive in the singleplayer game because the AI is never trying to mindgame you or outmaneuver you. It *technically* makes a difference, but it still basically doesn't actually *matter*. | ||
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES51709 Posts
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chocorush
696 Posts
Amulet coin is pretty much the only useful item, and maybe leftovers. Leftovers isn't even that great in competitive, but is used because it's better than nothing on some pokemon. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
Life orb is sub-optimal when your life doesn't recover each battle and complete overkill. Choice items are also stupid and overkill. To be fair, you also can use healing items in single-player. If it weren't total overkill, Life Orb would actually be fine because you have way more than enough money to just chug an arbitrary amount of potions between battles to top up. TBH the Soothe Bell is more useful than most other items just for removing tedium from friendship-based evolutions like Crobat and Lucario. And the Shell Bell is functionally equivalent to Leftovers in most cases since using non-attack moves is rarely relevant in single player and you spend a lot of time OHKOing wild Pokemon. But yeah, Amulet Coin is so far and away more useful than anything else in single player. Almost every other hold item is just edge cases that don't really matter. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On November 19 2018 06:04 Purind wrote: Do you think it would be better if it was trainer fights with 3-4 pokemon instead of the 1-2 pokemon? Then maybe have fewer trainers to account for the longer fights? Having longer fights, even if they're not any stronger or harder makes it feel more like a fight instead of a chore From a difficulty/XP gain standpoint, I can see how impossible it is to balance. You'd have to account for people who would just get 1 of everything and maybe a few random battles here and there (I think this is closer to how many people play the conventional pokemon games). But then that leaves the game overly easy for people who just go around capturing everything they see (which is probably closer to the intended way to play) For what it's worth I was doing the latter (catching more or less just 1 of everything) and my Eevee still ended up pretty high leveled compared to the field. It's evened out a bit with some work, but if I left Eevee in the party I'm pretty sure they'd always be high enough level to clear most enemies. This may sort of also be more of a problem with Lets go Eevee than Pikachu since Fighting type is relatively rare and with the extra moves you can cover just about anything with Eevee alone. But yeah it seems like they could have just given trainers 3-4 pokemon earlier or something? Like I don't care about game being challenging enough to ever faint or lose, but it's gonna at least pretend to pose some risk. | ||
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Purind
Canada3562 Posts
On November 19 2018 12:13 TheYango wrote: This is an example of what I mean--taking attitudes toward things that would matter in competitive play and extrapolating them into the single-player game. Because the AI never switches anyway and never actively tries to avoid disadvantages, abilities like this that are *theoretically* useful are never *practically* relevant. The type of switching that you would do in a competitive match is basically never productive in the singleplayer game because the AI is never trying to mindgame you or outmaneuver you. It *technically* makes a difference, but it still basically doesn't actually *matter*. I don't really see how being immune/resistant to Cynthia's strongest pokemon for example doesn't actually matter. Heatproof Bronzong gets hit supereffective by Earthquake. Levitate Bronzong is immune. That matters. To extend that example to a hypothetical version of Let's Go with abilities in it, Weezing can now take on ground types with Levitate If you have a bad matchup and you're about to get killed by a super-effective move, you can switch to a resistance/immunity. Single player or not. Whether I'm switching in Landorus into a Tapu Koko in a VGC game, or whether I'm switching Pidgey into an Oddish agianst a random Route 4 trainer, the concept is the same. This has nothing to do with mindgaming and positioning your pokemon with multiple switches. I'm talking about literally switching a Levitate pokemon into a ground move Saying Levitate (and other resistance/immunity based abilities) doesn't matter is pretty much saying typings don't matter. Yeah, if you're overlevelled, you can kill anything with anything, but switching a flying type into a ground move is something that happens in single player. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
Again, this all stems back to the original argument that removing abilities is "dumbing down" the game for which that would require that abilities make the game easier/harder or more/less complex. Most abilities do none of those things. They make the game different, but that's pretty much it. "Different" does not mean "easier", "simpler" or "dumbed down". On November 20 2018 09:47 Purind wrote: If you have a bad matchup and you're about to get killed by a super-effective move, you can switch to a resistance/immunity. Whether I'm switching in Landorus into a Tapu Koko in a VGC game, or whether I'm switching Pidgey into an Oddish agianst a random Route 4 trainer, the concept is the same. The thing is, the singleplayer game defaults to the Shift battle option so 99% of players that don't play competitive multiplayer are going to play that way. Shift essentially makes all mid-battle switching meaningless because you get to switch every time you faint an enemy Pokemon and the game tells you what they're sending out, so you never have to switch into something effective when you can start with that Pokemon out immediately. Defaulting the game to Set over Shift would make a lot of these things matter, but as it stands only a small minority of players play that way. In theory, you could be "surprised" by the trainer's initial Pokemon and have to switch in response to that, but even that's almost never an issue due to the fact that trainer classes telegraph the types of their Pokemon (e.g. Swimmers and water types, Hikers and fighting/rock/ground, etc.). In fact, the fact that most trainers are "themed" like this means that most of the time, a single Pokemon will be effective against a trainer's entire roster anyway, and only Ace Trainers, the Champion, and a few story or postgame battles actually break this at all. | ||
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sharkie
Austria18773 Posts
god am I hyped | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On November 20 2018 10:41 TheYango wrote: I'm saying that it doesn't actually affect decision complexity in any way. Okay one Pokemon that wasn't resistant/immune to something now is. So what? There's a handful of fights where its more effective against some things. That doesn't make the game easier/harder/more complex. Again, this all stems back to the original argument that removing abilities is "dumbing down" the game for which that would require that abilities make the game easier/harder or more/less complex. Most abilities do none of those things. They make the game different, but that's pretty much it. "Different" does not mean "easier", "simpler" or "dumbed down". The thing is, the singleplayer game defaults to the Shift battle option so 99% of players that don't play competitive multiplayer are going to play that way. Shift essentially makes all mid-battle switching meaningless because you get to switch every time you faint an enemy Pokemon and the game tells you what they're sending out, so you never have to switch into something effective when you can start with that Pokemon out immediately. Defaulting the game to Set over Shift would make a lot of these things matter, but as it stands only a small minority of players play that way. In theory, you could be "surprised" by the trainer's initial Pokemon and have to switch in response to that, but even that's almost never an issue due to the fact that trainer classes telegraph the types of their Pokemon (e.g. Swimmers and water types, Hikers and fighting/rock/ground, etc.). In fact, the fact that most trainers are "themed" like this means that most of the time, a single Pokemon will be effective against a trainer's entire roster anyway, and only Ace Trainers, the Champion, and a few story or postgame battles actually break this at all. To be fair if this whole hold item is because I brought it up, I don't think their exclusion dumbs down the game and I am not really aware of the range of possible held items so I had a baked in assumption that there were interesting held item choices. They just seem like a (potentially) interesting way to customize your team which was something fun I was looking forward to tinkering around with. To the other stuff... that's kind of the things I wish the AI actually did and what I meant in some ways about the game being too easy. I'd love if the AI swapped out pokemon or there were more non-themed (maybe optional, like coach trainer) battles. At least in some capacity. It just feels a bit of a letdown that unless I want to play vs people there's not going to really be anything where it makes sense to build a diverse team with interesting synergies. In the mainline pokemon better AI and longer battles would mean the game is a slog, but without random battles it seems like you could make it work well. | ||
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Purind
Canada3562 Posts
I guess you could make a comparison to macro mechanics in SC2 Campaign. Do they make a difference? Yes Do they matter? Yes Do they REALLY matter? Well, I'm building chain lightning void rays either way, so who cares? Personally, I like abilities in casual play as it's a way for pokemon to differentiate themselves, but I didn't mind their removal for this one-off game. I'm not even against the removal of abilities for competitive for this one game. I definitely want them back in for Gen 8, but I'm not gonna write off the competitive aspect of Let's Go yet. It may have fewer crazy and fun strategies, but more stability. It may get stale faster, but it only needs to be good for around a year. And even if it's not, we still got gen 7. I'll have to think about the Shift/Set comment. I always change it to Set as I feel Shift removes an important aspect of the game, but the whole "this is the default option" argument is valid, as they probably designed and balanced the game around the default option. There's also the fact that in the anime, the battles seem to be on Shift (either that, or the anime is complete nonsense, but I refuse to believe that!) and this is pretty much a "roleplay as an anime character" game | ||
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Faruko
Chile34173 Posts
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Purind
Canada3562 Posts
On November 19 2018 06:09 Faruko wrote: Do we have a google doc of Switch friend codes? we should add each other for any game, smash is coming so it would be great to fight between TL Anyone interested in a Discord server? It might be better than a forum for match-making and generally hanging out with the community + Show Spoiler + | ||
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andrewlt
United States7702 Posts
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