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On July 22 2014 15:15 Luoson wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2014 12:09 Rostam wrote:On July 21 2014 15:25 Luoson wrote:
everyone plays one race which makes it the most perfectly balanced strategy game to exist. That is some seriously twisted logic. Best of luck with the tournament, it's always good to see some activity in some different RTS communities than starcraft. How is that twisted logic? Obviously if there is only 1 race then there is no unit imbalance between the races, everyone has the same tools available to them. When you add other races in it becomes impossible to perfectly balance.. Look at starcraft 2, been out for nearly 5 years or so and balance patches still come out. To many variables to balance perfectly. Im strictly talking about balance here not interest level or variety or anything like that. Think like car racing, what do you think will be more balanced, 1 nissan 1 subaru 1 ford, or all 3 people racing the same ford. This may not necessarily make it more fun but it does make it more balanced. Keep in mind i know that starcraft 1 is pretty balanced now after 10+ years of patches. The point im trying make here is that having different races doesnt make the game better, the difference is in the strategies which has plenty of variety with the one race to make it a solid game. Also to the guy trying argue with unit responsiveness, We have a program that sets it to almost lan latency, there is no issues with responsiveness, i click and the unit moves almost instantly and if you had responsiveness issues then it's your computer. Ive played thousands of games and never considered this an issue. Also one aspect is wc2 is the last pure rts, everything is manual. APM is more important. You cannot cue up 5 workers like in sc1, if you are slow to make that 2nd worker after your first is completed then your behind in production. This really does open up the gaps between noobs and pros even further. Having no cues and no rally points makes the game more skillful, less automation more needing quick apm and fast reacting. Which i found a huge issue in sc2, because ever decent player had the same economy there wasn't really much in the way to get ahead because of the automation. Please keep in mind im not trying agure what game is better, because clearly starcraft won in the popularity contest, but warcraft 2 is almost a 20 year old game and still has an active player base, that can only give credit to it being a good strategy game. Hope some of you will come along and see how it's played on the skilled level.
Umm theres 1 race in War2 because Humans suck compared to Orcs? If anything that shows true imbalance just because 1 race is completely unviable in comparison to the other
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the guys that play the 16 yo game hating on the guys that play the 20 yo game and vice versa? ridiculous bullshit i say!
As small scenes, where an old Blizz RTS title is still played, we should rather stick together than hate ourselves, i don't really get it. Is it really about finding out which is the best game ever? I don't think that question needs or can be answered, as the answer is always subjective. What can be asserted is, that both player bases share a very similar passion and face similar problems. Mobilization, Monetization, Advertisement.
What should happen ideally is, that we at least cross promote events and cooperate. Guys who like WC2 are quite likely to like BW too, it's almost a no-brainer. But instead i read a lot of "objective "arguments" here, to claim why title x is better than y.
Do you think you achieve anything but satisfy your own egoism by doing that? Nobody gives a shit what we think the best game is in the days of LoL and Hearthstone, or whatever the stuff is the youth plays today. We can't afford to be ignorant if we want to give our scenes a way to at least remain the way they are, or even improve.
To those complaining about BM on the war2combat server: have you played Iccup recently?
We should be happy there are still more people out there sticking to their guns and giving an awesome and complex old RTS title action and tournaments ahppening beyond what could ever be expected. I played some games on the russian server for fun coz i used to love War2 and people are incredibly skilled. So gogo Warcraft, much love from me <3
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On July 24 2014 02:10 TaShadan wrote:Show nested quote +Keep in mind i know that starcraft 1 is pretty balanced now after 10+ years of patches. The last balance patch was around 2001 or 2002. The other patches were cosmetic stuff and bug fixes. ( Patchlog Thread) To be honest your whole post is a wc2 fanboy post and offensive against any other rts out there. This is one of the reasons i do not like the wc2 community beside from being bm towards beginners. Do not get me wrong i love wc2 but you are talking every other rts down which is kinda lame.
Yet your first post was this one
On July 21 2014 01:02 TaShadan wrote:No offense but i doubt that. BW has much more variability in terms of strats, there are more viable units, the micro is more responsive and there are 3 factions with a good balance. You still need a lot of skill to be good at wc2. Even with years of hardcore training foreigners never were able to compete with the korean pros.
This post and your last one screams starcraft fanboy to me, not the other way around. This is a thread about warcraft 2 so of course im going to talk positively about the game, as im trying to get players to give it a try. It's you that has come in trying to knock it down that it doesnt even come close to comparing to starcraft. I am not sure how you think i am talking every other rts down when all i have tried to do is show people the positive aspects of warcraft. There has been 0 put downs on other rts, infact i acknowledge that starcraft is a really good and solid rts i never once said it wasnt. So please make sure your comments are accurate and represent what was actually said.
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On July 24 2014 10:54 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2014 15:15 Luoson wrote:On July 22 2014 12:09 Rostam wrote:On July 21 2014 15:25 Luoson wrote:
everyone plays one race which makes it the most perfectly balanced strategy game to exist. That is some seriously twisted logic. Best of luck with the tournament, it's always good to see some activity in some different RTS communities than starcraft. How is that twisted logic? Obviously if there is only 1 race then there is no unit imbalance between the races, everyone has the same tools available to them. When you add other races in it becomes impossible to perfectly balance.. Look at starcraft 2, been out for nearly 5 years or so and balance patches still come out. To many variables to balance perfectly. Im strictly talking about balance here not interest level or variety or anything like that. Think like car racing, what do you think will be more balanced, 1 nissan 1 subaru 1 ford, or all 3 people racing the same ford. This may not necessarily make it more fun but it does make it more balanced. Keep in mind i know that starcraft 1 is pretty balanced now after 10+ years of patches. The point im trying make here is that having different races doesnt make the game better, the difference is in the strategies which has plenty of variety with the one race to make it a solid game. Also to the guy trying argue with unit responsiveness, We have a program that sets it to almost lan latency, there is no issues with responsiveness, i click and the unit moves almost instantly and if you had responsiveness issues then it's your computer. Ive played thousands of games and never considered this an issue. Also one aspect is wc2 is the last pure rts, everything is manual. APM is more important. You cannot cue up 5 workers like in sc1, if you are slow to make that 2nd worker after your first is completed then your behind in production. This really does open up the gaps between noobs and pros even further. Having no cues and no rally points makes the game more skillful, less automation more needing quick apm and fast reacting. Which i found a huge issue in sc2, because ever decent player had the same economy there wasn't really much in the way to get ahead because of the automation. Please keep in mind im not trying agure what game is better, because clearly starcraft won in the popularity contest, but warcraft 2 is almost a 20 year old game and still has an active player base, that can only give credit to it being a good strategy game. Hope some of you will come along and see how it's played on the skilled level. Umm theres 1 race in War2 because Humans suck compared to Orcs? If anything that shows true imbalance just because 1 race is completely unviable in comparison to the other
I see your point and yes they are imbalanced, but it's not what warcraft 2 has become. Warcraft 2 has evolved to be orc vs orc, which is balanced. Bloodlust is the spell that is overpowered against humans, but bloodlust has enhanced the game with it's imbalance and added many interesting aspects.
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Warcraft 2!!!! wewt! ive watched prob all the videos you guys put up on youtube! Glad the festival is still happening! and yea unless youve played warcraft 2 at the top level or at least watched the top level you might be underestimating how hard war2 is, and how much skill comes into play. This was my first rts! I miss those days...
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Bloodlust is OP? Well, get those mages and start those polymorphs! xD
Although I won't lie that Bloodlust is much cheaper than polymorph is.
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hmmm, if its undisputable that orc is better than humans which results in orc vs orc mirrors, thats all great, but why dont you guys play human vs human too then? It makes sense noone would want to play human vs orc if its so imbalanced, but this would provide a second balanced matchup to the game and for variation sake, there could be a tournament with human vs human only and since nobodys plays human it would take time to master them till orc skill levels. You have a whole other half of game unplayed there, but choose to play orc vs orc only, why? Im just wondering is all, i assume from posts here noone plays human at all, is that the case?
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On July 24 2014 17:45 iknowFiRE wrote:
hmmm, if its undisputable that orc is better than humans which results in orc vs orc mirrors, thats all great, but why dont you guys play human vs human too then? It makes sense noone would want to play human vs orc if its so imbalanced, but this would provide a second balanced matchup to the game and for variation sake, there could be a tournament with human vs human only and since nobodys plays human it would take time to master them till orc skill levels. You have a whole other half of game unplayed there, but choose to play orc vs orc only, why? Im just wondering is all, i assume from posts here noone plays human at all, is that the case?
it's like asking why nobody plays bio vs bio in TvT starcraft
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Arguing war2 is more "manual" because it requires "higher apm" due to having no rally points or unit queues is a void argument.I could argue that since dune 2 allows you to select only one unit at a time whilst war2 allows 9 units to be selected means dune 2 is even more skilled?
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On July 24 2014 19:23 upro)wraith wrote:
it's like asking why nobody plays bio vs bio in TvT starcraft
I dont think thats an adequate comparison, bio is not a faction, its only half of terran tech tree and it is entirely unrealistic for players to adhere to some ingame made up rule to use bio only, you use entire tech tree and humans are a faction not half of orc tech tree u dont use because it sucks. And you give such a poor comparison infact, I mean if sc2 protoss beats sc1 protoss completely one sided (orc vs human) and then you only play sc2 toss vs sc2 toss (orc vs orc) and neglect entire other game u have right there, sc1 toss vs sc1 toss (human vs human). Dont even answer, that did happen, everyone abandoned sc1 when 2 came, but they are actualy 2 diffrent games and my point is, human vs human is part of the same game and as balanced as orc vs orc, yet its abandoned?
Also for instance company of heroes 1, a pretty good rts i might add, ironicaly has it backwards in that sense, there games are always axis vs allies, and each of those have 2 factions, so theres 8 possible matchups or in vanilla coh1 just 2 before expansion came. So not only theres no mirrors, there not even matchups against other army, which developers made suposedly for historic feeling or whatever. Well guess what, there was a mod to allow such mirror matches to happen upping the total matchup count to 16, but community was so against it that nobody ever played it, not even tried mind u. But in wc2 its only orc mirror, how diffrent yet how similar we are, its mind blowing
Honestly, if communities can do that at a whim Im really surprised nobody ever thought of banning tvt zvz and pvp in sc2 because they infact hold back the balance or make game severely boring. DavidKim has always said he wont nerf photon overcharge cause pvp or buff tanks because of tvt, so are you telling me all it takes is to not play these? But clearly there are double standards in such things or it would happen a long time ago. Like i said, i certainly understand if orc vs human is terribly imbalanced to make it pointless from competitive standpoint, but mirrors cant be. Add to that that sc has 9 possible matchups for a player to play, which wc2 has 4, but only 1 is played, orc vs orc. Im pretty sure human vs human is perfectly balanced aswell, so 2 matchups wouldnt be that bad to have, no?
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Pointless debate is pointless. Warcraft 2 is an amazing game, stacraft is an amazing game. I have amazing memories from both these games and both are extremely fast-paced.
As for the balance yes human is almost unplayable because you would need 2000 apm to micro paladin's heals perfectly, and even then it seems bloodlust is still stronger. As has been said it doesn't really matter because everyone plays orc so there is perfect balance but obviously less diversity.
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People keep telling something vs something debate is pointless, then discussing the differences between them. If you can compare differences, isn't something by definition better or worse in some aspect?
Obviously, if somebody is like ' X > Y, Y can go die in hell, everybody switch to X', he's an idiot. But saying that one is the more difficult (skillful) competitive game is a discussion with an answer, as long as it's not very close and subjective.
I personally doubt wc2 is harder than sc:bw if we take into account all the aspects, but it's possible that as such an old game in some ways is, so I'll probably tune in to watch it to see some of that, because that makes it uniquely interesting to watch compared to newschool games.
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On July 24 2014 15:26 Luoson wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2014 02:10 TaShadan wrote:Keep in mind i know that starcraft 1 is pretty balanced now after 10+ years of patches. The last balance patch was around 2001 or 2002. The other patches were cosmetic stuff and bug fixes. ( Patchlog Thread) To be honest your whole post is a wc2 fanboy post and offensive against any other rts out there. This is one of the reasons i do not like the wc2 community beside from being bm towards beginners. Do not get me wrong i love wc2 but you are talking every other rts down which is kinda lame. Yet your first post was this one Show nested quote +On July 21 2014 01:02 TaShadan wrote:No offense but i doubt that. BW has much more variability in terms of strats, there are more viable units, the micro is more responsive and there are 3 factions with a good balance. You still need a lot of skill to be good at wc2. Could a good rts player compete with bisu after 6 months of starcraft? Even with years of hardcore training foreigners never were able to compete with the korean pros. This post and your last one screams starcraft fanboy to me, not the other way around. This is a thread about warcraft 2 so of course im going to talk positively about the game, as im trying to get players to give it a try. It's you that has come in trying to knock it down that it doesnt even come close to comparing to starcraft. I am not sure how you think i am talking every other rts down when all i have tried to do is show people the positive aspects of warcraft. There has been 0 put downs on other rts, infact i acknowledge that starcraft is a really good and solid rts i never once said it wasnt. So please make sure your comments are accurate and represent what was actually said.
Did you even read my posts? You should be more accurate with your comments...
My posts would make more sense if you add your comments i replied to as well.
The first reply quote just showed your lack of knowledge.
On July 24 2014 22:30 RouaF wrote:
Pointless debate is pointless. Warcraft 2 is an amazing game, stacraft is an amazing game. I have amazing memories from both these games and both are extremely fast-paced.
As for the balance yes human is almost unplayable because you would need 2000 apm to micro paladin's heals perfectly, and even then it seems bloodlust is still stronger. As has been said it doesn't really matter because everyone plays orc so there is perfect balance but obviously less diversity.
This.
To those complaining about BM on the war2combat server: have you played Iccup recently?
No, but why do people think you can justify everything that is negative if others do it? IMO thats a twisted logic.
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On July 24 2014 10:54 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2014 15:15 Luoson wrote:On July 22 2014 12:09 Rostam wrote:On July 21 2014 15:25 Luoson wrote:
everyone plays one race which makes it the most perfectly balanced strategy game to exist. That is some seriously twisted logic. Best of luck with the tournament, it's always good to see some activity in some different RTS communities than starcraft. How is that twisted logic? Obviously if there is only 1 race then there is no unit imbalance between the races, everyone has the same tools available to them. When you add other races in it becomes impossible to perfectly balance.. Look at starcraft 2, been out for nearly 5 years or so and balance patches still come out. To many variables to balance perfectly. Im strictly talking about balance here not interest level or variety or anything like that. Think like car racing, what do you think will be more balanced, 1 nissan 1 subaru 1 ford, or all 3 people racing the same ford. This may not necessarily make it more fun but it does make it more balanced. Keep in mind i know that starcraft 1 is pretty balanced now after 10+ years of patches. The point im trying make here is that having different races doesnt make the game better, the difference is in the strategies which has plenty of variety with the one race to make it a solid game. Also to the guy trying argue with unit responsiveness, We have a program that sets it to almost lan latency, there is no issues with responsiveness, i click and the unit moves almost instantly and if you had responsiveness issues then it's your computer. Ive played thousands of games and never considered this an issue. Also one aspect is wc2 is the last pure rts, everything is manual. APM is more important. You cannot cue up 5 workers like in sc1, if you are slow to make that 2nd worker after your first is completed then your behind in production. This really does open up the gaps between noobs and pros even further. Having no cues and no rally points makes the game more skillful, less automation more needing quick apm and fast reacting. Which i found a huge issue in sc2, because ever decent player had the same economy there wasn't really much in the way to get ahead because of the automation. Please keep in mind im not trying agure what game is better, because clearly starcraft won in the popularity contest, but warcraft 2 is almost a 20 year old game and still has an active player base, that can only give credit to it being a good strategy game. Hope some of you will come along and see how it's played on the skilled level. Umm theres 1 race in War2 because Humans suck compared to Orcs? If anything that shows true imbalance just because 1 race is completely unviable in comparison to the other
I know literally nothing about War2, but a game doesn't have to be balanced to be balanced. 
What I mean by that is that the metagame can theoretically still be perfectly balanced, even if a game itself is not balanced by definition. One race being completely eliminated from play is actually the best and most extreme example of this process I've ever seen and I find this very interesting. It really depends on your personal definition of balance of course.
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On July 24 2014 22:30 RouaF wrote:
Pointless debate is pointless. Warcraft 2 is an amazing game, stacraft is an amazing game. I have amazing memories from both these games and both are extremely fast-paced.
As for the balance yes human is almost unplayable because you would need 2000 apm to micro paladin's heals perfectly, and even then it seems bloodlust is still stronger. As has been said it doesn't really matter because everyone plays orc so there is perfect balance but obviously less diversity.
In theory Humans can actually outplay an Orc if they make it to the late game because Mages are fucking 100x better than Death Knights with the amount of control that they have. Getting there along with fully upgrading them and then controlling them is a totally different matter.
Execution wise it's just easier to mass Ogre Magi and just bloodlust and face smash.
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The tournaments will begin tomorrow. Hope you all decide to join in!
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Wow. Nostalgia coming in, here. WC2 was the first PC game I ever got into. Didn't know anybody was still doing anything with it.
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It almost feels like WC2 Orc = SC2 Protoss = just steamroll the oponent :D
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Will this be streamed?
Also, what is the default tournament game settings? What speed and how many resources do players start with?
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On July 26 2014 04:50 TheFish7 wrote:
Will this be streamed?
Also, what is the default tournament game settings? What speed and how many resources do players start with?
We have a lot of variety in this years festival.
Map Variety Low Resource 1vs1 (even faster speed) , Custom map Chop 2vs2 (fastest speed) , Map Variety 2vs2 tournament (even faster speed), Garden of War BNE Fastest 2vs2 High Resource , Garden of War Classic 2vs2 (even faster speed), and Garden of War 1vs1 (even faster speed)
The first tournament winner is in:
Low resource champion this year, making his 5th festival tournament win.....
The famous Swift
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EPT
