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United States24782 Posts
On January 06 2014 20:35 Pandemona wrote:
Also any profession can be maxed out by stood in front of a vendor ^_^
Can you explain what you mean by this? It honestly doesn't make sense to me how you can max out any profession by standing next to a vendor and dealing exclusively with them. What vendor has the necessary mats for this?
Also the issue with the economy in the game is down to the retard players who play it, other than that the economy would be fine. I honestly take issue with complaints that an economy is being ruined by people not acting in their own self-interest (due to this "retardation" label you like to use for some reason). Traders see market inefficiencies like these as opportunities and certainly don't complain about them. The only exception to this I wouldn't take issue with is the case where people go out of their way to intentionally 'damage' the economy by pouring in tremendous amounts of their own work to offer needed items on the auction house at a great discount, at great personal expense. I'm not sure how prevalent that actually is, though.
When you see those Golem mounts which took a whole 60days was it? or 30 i can't remember of doing a daily on top of all the bars you needed for them to be sold day for 40k was just stupid. I don't know much about how to make the golem mount but can you explain why a list price of 40k is stupid?
Now you can pick one up for 20k? Lol great fun. Again I don't know the details about the golem mount it but it doesn't surpise me that the price would drop significantly throughout the expansion. Can you explain what you are taking issue with?
Or when your stacks get undercut by a random 10g a stack just for NO REASON what so ever. Ha so much fun.
What do you mean for no reason? Are you saying it's one of the cases of a "retard" not acting in their own best interest, and hurting other sellers in the process?
The only good reason I can think of for why those "retards" really are having such a negative effect is if blizzard steps in too strongly with economy manipulation.... I don't have any information on that so I can't say for sure. If you are selling 2 stacks of teamliquid ore for 40g each which you consider to be the going price, and one person lists one stack for 10g, you can just buy it for 10g and sell it for 40g also if you are confident 40g is a good price. If you are right you have increased your profits. If you are wrong then your 40g price was too high and now you have even more excess goods to sell, and you will have to drop your price, eating the original auction house fee.
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Serejai just likes being a negative nancy. The desire to call the game shit and the player base shit ought to correlate negatively with the desire to play the game. Otherwise it's all just self-important bluster.
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An item that sells at its current price will sell at its current price -1 cp just as fast as it will at -10g. Therefore undercutting by 10g does nothing other then drive down the market. Now you can wait for those to sell and then the price to correct itself but on a good active market items are listed fast enough that someone will undercut the -10g before it sells driving the price further down.
I played the gem market during WotLK and markets could crash in a matter of hours by this behavior where prices could fall by more then 300%.
As for the Rocket Mounts. It is the sort of item that will sell for 100k+ when it is just released. if people start listing it for 40k right off the bat then your cutting profit margins enormously, esp on large servers where once again the price will keep dropping instead of being able to reset to a higher margin.
The main thing to remember is that in the real world business doing this will go broke very fast. However that doesn't happen in WoW where a jewelcrafter can farm his own ore and think any money made is profit while forgetting that time = money.
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United States24782 Posts
On January 07 2014 01:24 Gorsameth wrote:
An item that sells at its current price will sell at its current price -1 cp just as fast as it will at -10g.
How do you know what the 'current price' is though? The 'current price' is not something that can easily be determined, since there are not records of buy/sell history. In contrast, the stock market lets you see what price the last bundle of shares were sold for, which allows for much finer undercutting of the 'current' price. Somehow undercutting a current buyer by 1 copper might still be be above a price point which separates a highly probable sale form a somewhat probable sale. Someone undercutting a current buyer by 10 gold might be low enough to appreciably increase the chance of the sale. There's no way to know without a tremendous amount of effort observing to the auction house to make up for its horrible deficiencies in informing buyers and sellers.
Now you can wait for those to sell and then the price to correct itself but on a good active market items are listed fast enough that someone will undercut the -10g before it sells driving the price further down. Why would sellers be more active than buyers? You are describing an economic asymmetry that I don't understand the source of.
I played the gem market during WotLK and markets could crash in a matter of hours by this behavior where prices could fall by more then 300%. Uh could you explain what you mean when you say a price falls by more than 300%? That doesn't make sense to me as a 100% decrease in price would make it free.
As for the Rocket Mounts. It is the sort of item that will sell for 100k+ when it is just released. if people start listing it for 40k right off the bat then your cutting profit margins enormously, esp on large servers where once again the price will keep dropping instead of being able to reset to a higher margin.
The main thing to remember is that in the real world business doing this will go broke very fast. However that doesn't happen in WoW where a jewelcrafter can farm his own ore and think any money made is profit while forgetting that time = money.
On the other hand, the value of their time is different than the value of your time. Also, the amount of mats that can be farmed has a hard cap so if everyone is willing to do tremendous amounts of farming for only small revenues, it will become harder to farm the mats and prices will go up anyway.
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Fine if you wanne be willfully ignorant then so be it. Go see how the market actually works ingame before you comment on it.
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Well i don't have that much difficulty to sell. I just set my prices. A lot of people have addons so it's undercutting my price. I put this at HUGE prices (like 1000gold a rock). I come tomorrow. See that half of rocks are at 800gold. Cancel my auction. Put all of them at 50. Sell all. Restart.
It's not working with all items. But it sure is with some 
Also you put your price. Like 50gold a glyph. You buy EVERYTHING that is lower than 20gold. And put them all at 50. Works quite well for now.
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United States24782 Posts
On January 07 2014 01:43 Gorsameth wrote:
Fine if you wanne be willfully ignorant then so be it. Go see how the market actually works ingame before you comment on it.
I'm definitely not being willfully ignorant. I'm explaining my thoughts on the descriptions I'm receiving of how the in-game economy works. What I will not do is just "take everyone's word for it." If you are unwilling or unable to explain why my concerns don't apply or that I should consider something in addition to what was already said, that's certainly fine (and there are others who might give it a shot themselves).
Also it's not like I have no experience with the auction house. Most of you have spent more time on it than me, though. The main thing I need to know before I can really be at all sure of my understanding here is what behavior blizzard staff blocks on the auction house, as I know Serejai has seen this happen before personally.
Keep in mind my involvement in the discussion was not sparked by my desire to prove that someone doesn't understand how the auction house works, or anything like that. I started discussing this today because of the accusations made of who is supposedly responsible for apparent problems. There is no need to take personally the fact that I don't immediately agree with the apparent consensus in the thread.
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On January 07 2014 01:51 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2014 01:43 Gorsameth wrote:
Fine if you wanne be willfully ignorant then so be it. Go see how the market actually works ingame before you comment on it. I'm definitely not being willfully ignorant. I'm explaining my thoughts on the descriptions I'm receiving of how the in-game economy works. What I will not do is just "take everyone's word for it." If you are unwilling or unable to explain why my concerns don't apply or that I should consider something in addition to what was already said, that's certainly fine (and there are others who might give it a shot themselves). Also it's not like I have no experience with the auction house. Most of you have spent more time on it than me, though. The main thing I need to know before I can really be at all sure of my understanding here is what behavior blizzard staff blocks on the auction house, as I know Serejai has seen this happen before personally. Keep in mind my involvement in the discussion was not sparked by my desire to prove that someone doesn't understand how the auction house works, or anything like that. I started discussing this today because of the accusations made of who is supposedly responsible for apparent problems. There is no need to take personally the fact that I don't immediately agree with the apparent consensus in the thread.
I might have skipped that part... Blizzard takes action on the auction house ? i'm mind blown... Really ? I think i need to reread the last 3pages or so.
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United States24782 Posts
I don't think it would make sense for blizzard to take action on the auction house. I'm hoping they generally don't, barring hacked items and things liked that. However, I've heard of cases of it on at least one or two occasions, and if it is actually somewhat prevalent then that would be one of the possible reasons to explain and justify some of the critical statements made in this thread about the wow economies.
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On January 07 2014 01:58 micronesia wrote:
I don't think it would make sense for blizzard to take action on the auction house. I'm hoping they generally don't, barring hacked items and things liked that. However, I've heard of cases of it on at least one or two occasions, and if it is actually somewhat prevalent then that would be one of the possible reasons to explain and justify some of the critical statements made in this thread about the wow economies.
Oh yeah hacking cases. That makes sense. I had once a guildy that had his account hacks. As the GM i received the 7tabs of my bank in my mailbox with a blizzard icon on each post lol.
It wasn't fun to unload that shit with my 1000ish auction at the time.
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On January 07 2014 01:05 farvacola wrote:
Serejai just likes being a negative nancy. The desire to call the game shit and the player base shit ought to correlate negatively with the desire to play the game. Otherwise it's all just self-important bluster.
Also, there have been objectively bad suggestions on forums for this game since the beginning of time. At the end of the day, who cares? As far as I've seen, Blizzard almost never listens to anyone, either for good or for bad, and quite honestly, their catering to casuals probably has very little to do with the complaints and bullshit we see on forums and other channels of communication. It's obviously impossible to tell without digging into the minds of the decision-makers at Blizz, but from what we've seen in their other games of the past few years, it's just them reacting to industry trends.
This feels like a classic correlation fallacy. Yes, bad suggestions probably do outnumber good ones 100:1, but that exists on many forums for many games, and it certainly doesn't mean that Blizzard is making their casual-catering decisions in part because of these suggestions. Hell, I would argue that Blizzard ESPECIALLY doesn't listen to the WoW community, because let's face it, there is probably not a more ridiculous complaint machine in existence. I honestly cannot think of a more self-entitled, whiny bunch than the WoW community (myself included). Why Blizz would ever give this shit the time of day is beyond me.
This actually raises an interesting question...how does a company keep in touch with its consumer base, while being effective and efficient at filtering out the bullshit, especially at this scale?
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On January 07 2014 01:58 micronesia wrote:
I don't think it would make sense for blizzard to take action on the auction house. I'm hoping they generally don't, barring hacked items and things liked that. However, I've heard of cases of it on at least one or two occasions, and if it is actually somewhat prevalent then that would be one of the possible reasons to explain and justify some of the critical statements made in this thread about the wow economies.
Blizzard will pretty much never take action so dont worry about it at all.
Hacked items they might but not even always considering how often ive seen obvious dupped items being sold, as in a sudden 30 spectral tigers on the AH (possible to be legit but so unlikely its unreal).
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
I responded to your post but i got timed out then i closed the page because i was leaving from work Micro, but my point is pretty much what Gorsameth wrote. Undercutting by greater than 1g is just plain ignorant (in terms of not understand an economy) or just purposely bringing down items for his own benefit later on, which im guessing is 1% of the undercuts lol.
Like Gors pointed at as well, that mount is ALOT of mats to make, it is 120 trillium ore which is an outstanding mount, it also takes 30days of dailies to make which again is a long time. For people to instantly undercut them to hell and drive it down from 80-40k within the first few days is daft. My mate (Ginge) who plays in TL EU guild bought his for 50k gold 48hoursr they hit! That is crazy considering for example a new raid drops random BoE gear and a guild who doesn't need the random gear might auction it for guild bank money, they can go on AH for 100k alone that is at the start then eventually drop down to around 30-50k depending on what the stock on the AH is like. But for mounts to be cut so low to quickly just proved how silly the Auction house economy is and it is down to no one but the people who use it.
Mainly due to players not understanding that you just need to undercut by 1copper to get to the top of a list to get ur stack sold quickest ;_;
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United States24782 Posts
On January 07 2014 02:56 Pandemona wrote:I responded to your post but i got timed out then i closed the page because i was leaving from work Micro, but my point is pretty much what Gorsameth wrote. Undercutting by greater than 1g is just plain ignorant (in terms of not understand an economy) or just purposely bringing down items for his own benefit later on, which im guessing is 1% of the undercuts lol. + Show Spoiler [skip this] +Like Gors pointed at as well, that mount is ALOT of mats to make, it is 120 trillium ore which is an outstanding mount, it also takes 30days of dailies to make which again is a long time. For people to instantly undercut them to hell and drive it down from 80-40k within the first few days is daft. My mate (Ginge) who plays in TL EU guild bought his for 50k gold 48hoursr they hit! That is crazy considering for example a new raid drops random BoE gear and a guild who doesn't need the random gear might auction it for guild bank money, they can go on AH for 100k alone that is at the start then eventually drop down to around 30-50k depending on what the stock on the AH is like. But for mounts to be cut so low to quickly just proved how silly the Auction house economy is and it is down to no one but the people who use it. Mainly due to players not understanding that you just need to undercut by 1copper to get to the top of a list to get ur stack sold quickest ;_;
This is the same issue that was discussed a little while ago, but undercut which price? Undercutting the current lowest seller by 1c is not necessarily better than undercutting it by 10g if the prices are all currently too high. Undercutting the ideal price by 1c makes sense, but as I said earlier there is no way to know that price. If there is a way to know the maximum price you can list the item for and have it highly likely to sell, then there is no reason to list it lower than that price (unless you REALLY need the money right now and you can't afford to wait for 50% of the auction expire time, let's say), but in actuality you can't know that for a multitude of reasons, such as that you don't know how other sellers will influence the market right after you (which by itself isn't necessarily a bad thing, putting some of the current accusations aside) or that there tend to be large fluctuations in buyer activity on a day to day basis.
Although there is definitely some compression in the likelihood of items selling at low vs very low prices, the fact remains that items are more likely to sell if they have a lower buyout price, even if the two prices being compared are below what everyone here thinks is the fair/right price. You have to balance the risk of an item not selling the first time you list it with the fees associated with listing the item, as well as the additional effort and aggravation associated with items not selling.
Items that could sell for significantly more than vendor price often get vendored anyway just because of the great deal of effort that is required to utilize the auction house (in its current design) in an effective way, and the fact that money in the game is just not that useful like money in real life is. Calling people daft or even retarded because they are loose with their game money warrants its own label, but I will refrain from using one.
On the other hand, I'm sure there are cases where people take the considerations too far, and it's very frustrating for people who want to take the auction house seriously and have the economy in the game mirror real-life economies. However, the in-game economy is forced by many factors (many of which I haven't identified here or don't even know) that is out of the control of sellers and buyers. I still want to know what Blizzard did to Serejai regarding the auction house because that might be one example of how they encourage the type of price-slashing behavior being identified in this thread. The auction house is also somewhat poorly designed from a perspective of optimizing market efficiency. Is that intentional?
Regarding the part I skipped before: Like Gors pointed at as well, that mount is ALOT of mats to make, it is 120 trillium ore which is an outstanding mount, it also takes 30days of dailies to make which again is a long time. For people to instantly undercut them to hell and drive it down from 80-40k within the first few days is daft. My mate (Ginge) who plays in TL EU guild bought his for 50k gold 48hoursr they hit! That is crazy considering for example a new raid drops random BoE gear and a guild who doesn't need the random gear might auction it for guild bank money, they can go on AH for 100k alone that is at the start then eventually drop down to around 30-50k depending on what the stock on the AH is like. But for mounts to be cut so low to quickly just proved how silly the Auction house economy is and it is down to no one but the people who use it.
Well I needed 40 trillium bar for my cloak... and I acquired it pretty easily using motes of harmony to get white/black ore. Yeah it's no joke to get 3x that much. From the sound of it this item is only somewhat more of a pain to make than a 553 leather piece which only takes me a few minutes of leather farming a day while I'm doing other things, for 3-4 weeks. Those sell for ~7-12k? Maybe 15 if you get lucky? So maybe the mount should be twice that.
Looking at it from the demand rather than the supply side: what's so great about it? When it first came out it was a pretty big deal. You could be one of the first people to have this really unusual looking mount! When I first saw it it definitely got my attention. Now I'm seeing them all over the place. The demand for it is becoming much more elastic. People want it, but it's not as special anymore so why pay 80k instead of 40k or even 30k? I think things which help you to do better in progression or top-tier pvp will retain their value better than cosmetic/vanity items, in general.
I guess the conclusion I'm starting to reach is that people should spend less time accusing other players of ruining the wow economy and more time accusing blizzard of making a system which unnecessarily encourages it.
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Again why are you pretending high volume items are somehow far above there "ideal price" especially since most of these items are 'mandatory' for the raiding community (gems/enchants/food/flasks).
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United States24782 Posts
On January 07 2014 04:15 Gorsameth wrote:
Again why are you pretending high volume items are somehow far above there "ideal price" especially since most of these items are 'mandatory' for the raiding community (gems/enchants/food/flasks).
When did I pretend high volume items are far above their ideal price?
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
The values for the new items you say about the 553 crafted gear, from the begining of the patch way back in Setepmber after the 18days for Belt and 28days for Legs the items were going for 20-28k depending if legs or belt (belt lower legs highter) within a month after i got materials for it i was selling mine between 10k-12k which is basically a 50% cut within about 40days after patch maybe 50.
Now they are going for 3-6k on Draenor for example and probably lower on Twisting Nether my old server, this is due to severe undercutting.
For example the price will drop no matter what you cannot control this however what you can control is how fast it drops. You undercut something that is 100g by 1g it will take 100days to reach 0. If you undercut something that is 100g by 10g it takes 10 days before it reaches 0 that is what my point is regarding the big undercuts for no reason.
Your point is that there is no true valuation for anything anyway and its a random price for said item to be put on AH. The point of that argument is that you are kind of right but missing the point a bit. If you craft something and your the first to put it on AH you should be allowed to put it on AH for whatever extortionate price you want it to go on for, lets say 100k, but the person who makes it after you and sees it on AH and it has not sold puts it on for 99,999 instead just to undercut you, then until one person sells it you have a undercutting war but it wont be massive because the people who make the items first understand the game and its valuation of products. Then in 3 weeks they are going for say 80k because more players are making said item, but then it has become easier to get it and casual players get and then they are the ones who think ahh 80k thats loads i only have like 60k, to me if i sold this for 60k that will be profit and will double my gold woooowwwww. Then they put it on for a 20k undercut for no reason other than thinking it will sell in 20seconds and they become super rich (in their casual world). That is what is wrong with AH >.> and there is no way to fix it unless you stop items from being undercut by more than 1gold as a feature blizz put in.
Item price will naturally decay over time, the items deserve to be priced higher the early they are made due to it taking way more effort to make it. Being undercut so vastly is silly when you don't even need to undercut at all. You can literally undercut anyone by putting your item on for the EXACT same amount of gold but putting on auction for 12 hours instead of 24 or 48 lol.
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If someone undercut my high value auction by 20k I'd just buy it myself and repost it, has worked plenty of times for me in the past :p
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On January 07 2014 04:23 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2014 04:15 Gorsameth wrote:
Again why are you pretending high volume items are somehow far above there "ideal price" especially since most of these items are 'mandatory' for the raiding community (gems/enchants/food/flasks). When did I pretend high volume items are far above their ideal price?
in about every single response you made regarding people undercutting for stupid amounts.
Tho yes the rocket mount is a different matter because its volume is much higher but if you think its worth 40k as an ideal price on release day id like to buy the next crafted mount put into the game from you....
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
On January 07 2014 04:44 Torenhire wrote:
If someone undercut my high value auction by 20k I'd just buy it myself and repost it, has worked plenty of times for me in the past :p
Well yeah that is true, but not when you go to sleep and wake up and find there are 5 undercuts, one at 20k then the rest undercutting that 20k
It just pisses you off and forces you to do that xD
And again then your gold becomes an endless cycle of material money (i forget the word im looking for, the business equivalent of owning stuff with value) where you don't physically have it, but it is all stored on the AH waiting to be sold...xD
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EPT
