EPTGuardians of Atlas - Page 56
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Development ended, game appears to be dead. https://forums.artillery.com/discussion/911/end-of-development -Jinro | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
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B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
On September 18 2016 20:19 Liquid`Jinro wrote: "Hating on" is, in my mind, different from calling someone a hater/fanboy but I could be wrong. I don't use either word much but I felt like hating on someone is descriptive wheras calling someone a hater / fanboy is reducing a person and their arguments down to a label... if that makes sense? From an outside perspective (and please believe me Im way on the outside, I only read tl a few times a month at most), I was actually thinking about asking something similar to b royal. Not because I'm so convinced day9 is a genius but because I'm curious what he did to make you so seemingly angry or at least deeply disappointed in him. That being said I was actually enjoying reading a lot of your posts, I wasn't trying to take any sides here. Thanks for your post. You hit the nail on the head. Hider clearly has some unresolved issues which he's purposely refusing to explain. I suggest that he works on his reading comprehension foremost. In case this is still too difficult for him to comprehend and he wants to give it one last shot: 1. Hating on =/ Hater. 2. What bothers you about Day9's position, his accomplishments, his vision,...? Explain why you are making posts that give the impression of you putting the blame of Atlas' failure solely on Day9 when WE (people that are not part of the atlas development team) have no clue what went on behind the scene. 3. Day9 giving an interview with laymen will result in him intentionally using less complex language which almost inevitably entails oversimplifying and giving factually incorrect information. 4. Why are you so focused on a single interview of years ago? Hider, please continue to put up straw men, to use emotional language though and to dodge any of my questions that come your way as this is much easier than arguing and vindicating your position. Finally to bring up the LoL point. I have played enough LoL to realize it's less superior than HoN. It doesn't take long to feel a difference in potential (body blocks, juking, skillful use of teleportation and items, lack of summoner abilities). | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On September 18 2016 21:27 Grumbels wrote: Plansix committed original sin, all subsequent evil can be traced back to him.  I am just happy I have had such a strong and powerful influence over people. Edit: on the subject of creep blocking, it is an weird part of dota. But its benefits become very clear to anyone who plays for an extended period of time. Much like stacking and pulling, the mechanic make more sense once the player realizes how easy it is to manipulate the map. But that isn't to say that Valve doesn't nerf it or change the game to combat people doing it all the time. Fighting over runes, early ward placement and the speed of the safe lane creeps have reduced need to creep block from the spawn. Now it is just something you do when your need to hold back your lane a little bit. | ||
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goswser
United States3548 Posts
Here are two examples of what I believe is succesful game design in which your skill produces a satisfying reward. Shuttle-reaver micro in broodwar - ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/HPrvR3Z.gif) Pudge play in dota 2 - ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/zPftg0F.gif) What is important to note in the above examples is that the payoff for the player's execution is fantastic. You are rewarded very visually and audibly - you can really enjoy the moment. In the brood war gif, you have explosions of blood when the marines die and large explosions when the tanks and scvs are destroyed. In the dota gif you get to watch the enemy be dragged across the screen to you and then die over several seconds while incapacitated. Although there is no sound in the gifs, if you've been in these scenarios before I'm sure you know that the audio payoff is very large as well. Another thing I think that is important to note is that in both gifs there is a lot of visual clarity. There aren't too many units on the screen in either and all of the models are reasonable large - our brain can process what is happening very easily, and if I showed both gifs to someone completely unfamiliar with either game and asked them to point out where the important stuff is happening they would be able to do it without too much trouble, because it is highlighted very well by the visual effects and there isn't too much visual clutter. In a well designed RTS I think you want to have strong visual clarity, create fun micro situations where you can show your skill, and have a large visual and audible payoff when you use your units. There are of course a lot of things that go into creating a succesful and fun RTS game, but I think you need to achieve this first and foremost, and I don't think GoA hit anywhere near the mark. Is there anything in GoA as satisfying as shuttle-reaver micro or hooking someone with pudge? If there is I definitely didn't encounter it. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22646 Posts
But the problem is when you make 'bad' mechanics for the sake of it because 'bad is good'. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
Not too sad because i don't think they would have succeeded anyway | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On September 19 2016 02:25 Gorsameth wrote: Accidental quirky gameplay like creepblocking in Dota or pathing in BW can turn out to be a good thing that adds to a game and should be kept in rather then patched out. But the problem is when you make 'bad' mechanics for the sake of it because 'bad is good'. This is 100% true. The key to development is to keep and refine what works, ditch what doesn't. Plenty of things in Dota 2 are gone because they were bad. A modern BW would have to be heavily refined and retooled to reach an audience beyond the hard core fans of TL. Fuck, if Blizzard doesn't add a build order tracker to the new HD BW, I be shocked. I also wonder if new BW is going to function in wide screen. So much of that game is based on that tiny, low resolution view window. | ||
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FFGenerations
7088 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22646 Posts
On September 19 2016 02:44 FFGenerations wrote: bliz didn't have the resources to add a few extra deckslots to HS , i find it hard to see them tinkering with BW tools in any shape or form :/ Do you think the BW crowd would accept any tinkering? What people wants is a 100% identical clone with some upgraded graphics and maybe matchmaking and bnet integration. | ||
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
On September 18 2016 21:11 Grumbels wrote: If creep blocking is an established part of DotA these days then I guess Icefrog managed to contain the problem to the point that its existence is merely an alternative to not having it, along the lines of allowing you to deny units (denying units is part of Warcraft 3 multiplayer too, for instance every player learns to not needlessly waste their summons because it gives xp to the opponent). If someone wants to tell me (and reads to this point !), I suppose I'm quite curious about how this has affected DotA(2) development in the past decade and what options were tried and how it came to be established. I'm not world's biggest expert on MOBA mechanics, so maybe I was slightly harsh to call it idiotic, but I stand by distrusting it theoretically and disliking it from earlier personal experience. I think creep blocking is a bit of an interesting design conundrum that IceFrog has managed to turn into an option as opposed to a necessity, and one that for most players won't make that big of a difference on how the game plays out. It has also evolved into something that invites and involves counterplay by the other team, and so it becomes more of a decision than a player-npc interaction. For example, blocking the waves at the start typically means you're dedicating at least one player to the creep wave, which means they're not necessarily there to contest one of the starting runes. On the other hand, if you're contesting starting runes, or at least "in the area" to prevent an early accidental pick-off, the efficacy of a creep block goes down because you don't have the time to do it. IceFrog rectified the creep block necessity on offlanes by adding an amusing little mechanic in that one side's waves move slower at the start of the game, thereby affecting the "meeting point" of the waves to be closer to one side's towers. And, when people try to creep block, the other team's heroes can come in and interfere or punish the block. Aside from jockeying for that initial lane position, then, I think the primary reason you see creep block kick in, and this becomes way more than 2-3% (though it will only truly affect the outcome of 2-3% of games... but that's probably going to be true for most Dota2 mechanics), is that if going after a last hit would put you in a compromising position, you can "give up" on one or two creep to go back and creep block your next wave, artificially forcing the lane back closer to your tower. I think the end result is that you end up with a bit more options with an inferior or losing lane to try to hang in there. Removing it, I think, would remove a fairly significant hang-on-for-relevance option for medium-level-or-higher players, and because the game already "suffers" from a fairly brutal rubberband effect, I think removing it would lead to some more binary lanes (wherein more lanes would be won handily -> more rubberband potential), which I think is something IceFrog has attempted to avoid (most new items and such try to add more options for players). | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
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Yurie
12175 Posts
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Jonoman92
United States9110 Posts
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eviltomahawk
United States11135 Posts
On September 19 2016 03:30 Jonoman92 wrote: This seems weird... It seemed like a close to finished game and they are cancelling it after putting in so much work? Maybe they just straight-up ran out of money or had the investors pull out. It was a big mistake to drop Day[9] just before the open alpha. He could've done so much with promotion. | ||
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FFGenerations
7088 Posts
here is a 7 second video of someone killing his own creeps to deny the opponent XP... he does this in contest with the enemy hero... taking your example where killing your own creeps awards you xp (rather than denying the opponent xp) ... apart from this being practically the same thing as killing your opponents creeps (and i am completely unable to understand why you are talking about it) , it would still be a case of risk and time vs reward and a contest between players trying to achieve the same goals . i know what you're trying to say really (i think) because i felt the same way about larva inject. what a dumb, pointless mechanic. but you cannot say this about the dota 2 mechanics , you are very very very wrong here and there is a hell of a lot more going on than you seem to know let me find another video that describes some more of how the mechanics fit together heres 1:24 seconds that helps to illustrate (without even mentioning the word "deny") https://www.youtube.com/v/nDFWpckBl3o?autoplay=1&start=111&end=197&controls=1&version=3 | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
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FFGenerations
7088 Posts
here is some dota mechanics in a 1:24s clip (insert the contest for denies here on your own accord as he does not talk about it, and throw in multiple players too, and various types of abilities, variation in hero attack reach/range, choice of regen items, rest-of-map awareness, highground vision advantage, highground mischance advantage, nighttime/dayttime vision changes, rune spawn times, varying hero movement speeds, etc, and you get a picture of how complex things can get) https://www.youtube.com/v/nDFWpckBl3o?autoplay=1&start=111&end=197&controls=1&version=3 he explains three rules of creep aggro behaviour and then gives three quick examples of how to utilise it. it gets even more fun when you throw in your abilities (eg a nuke) so you can combo denies with last hits (as you can rightclick then cast a spell with a faster animation or travel time than a rightclick). being able to "think ahead" in the laning phase with regards to creep health/last hits/denies and outplay your opponent by playing around his intentions and capabilities VS your intentions and capabilities on a second-by-second basis really makes the laning phase of Dota comparable to, as i said, TvT in BW. its solid stuff oh btw i think you asked for a video showing an example of creep block abuse in dota in one of your posts. i remembered someone posted a funny video the other day and someone finally replied to me on reddit with the link, so here: youtu.be/Y43rIxB6-y8?t=109 450,000 views and i am utterly safe in saying i will never see this performed in my lifetime coz the risk vs reward just isn't there, even tho it won them the game :p (the rapier aghs WK tp combo posted earlier today tho does give me shivers) | ||
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Jonoman92
United States9110 Posts
On September 19 2016 04:09 eviltomahawk wrote: Maybe they just straight-up ran out of money or had the investors pull out. It was a big mistake to drop Day[9] just before the open alpha. He could've done so much with promotion. Oh, they dropped him? I hadn't realized that. I thought he was deeply involved in it or something. Then on the day the alpha was coming out I played some BGH with him which I found weird that he wasn't streaming GoA or something. | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
Though Reaver Shuttle has alot of decisionmaking and time feeling involved. So it takes some training to become low risk. Only thing I enjoyed about Reaver Shuttle was the counterplay a Terran did, and if they could minimize the damage or if they risk heavy damage to punish the protoss. I admit that low risk high reward moves are a clever way to balance out macro advantage that come from asymmetrical design. About the BW remake. They can go for multiplayer approach and just bring it on new tech for korea. Or they overhaul the game for the rts single player crowd to make the big money. Maybe thats why he retired ;_; . (spreads rumors.) Rough that they stop development. But online multiplayer team games are just sprouting out from everywhere and there are only scraps and nomads left. Nothing you can go f2p of unless you are really greedy with it. | ||
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TelecoM
United States10871 Posts
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