EPTgood luck and PM me the links of your latest RTS creations and my little clan, Kramerica Industries, will check it out.
Guardians of Atlas - Page 54
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Development ended, game appears to be dead. https://forums.artillery.com/discussion/911/end-of-development -Jinro | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16950 Posts
good luck and PM me the links of your latest RTS creations and my little clan, Kramerica Industries, will check it out. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
great, your great idea should be sweeping BNet because it is an order of magnitude more fun than any other RTS games. 'As explained multiple times by now. There is zero potential for any mods due to lack of matchmaking and having a proper business model behind it to incentivize further playing. I am not sure what about this point you fail to understand. But sure I could give you the name to the SC2-based mod I have been working on along with a 30K words detailing all of the reasons behind the 1K+ changes. But.. probably no value in doing that. It has no potential, but it was a fun learning experience. Also, you still haven't responded to the Starbow question. You dare to admit you were talking out of your ass? TLDR: You just ignore everything I say over and over while living in your own bobble. Try and actually read and respond to what I am saying. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
On September 17 2016 23:28 B-royal wrote: I don't know why you are hating on day9 Hider. Maybe he just communicated badly with the testers and the public. It's like scientists who try to simplify things when communicating to laymen and end up oversimplifying and communicating essentially wrong information. You are apparently a big fan of micro in league of legends. For me it's the exact opposite. I've only touched LOL for a couple of games and it's been years but from what I remember it feels like units almost have 0 collision size. I tried blocking creeps' movement as in HoN or Dota so I could fight farther from my opponent's tower. It didn't work. The extent of orb walking in league is also seemed to be much less than it is in Dota or HoN. These are in my opinion two of the most important factors for micro. Creep blocking in DotA is an artifact of WC3 pathfinding and I don't see how it positively contributes to the experience. There is a reason that DotA prevents you from killing your own units starting from full HP, it's along those same lines. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
The extent of orb walking in league is also seemed to be much less than it is in Dota or HoN. Orb walking as in kiting? You are apparently a big fan of micro in league of legends. For me it's the exact opposite. I've only touched LOL for a couple of games and it's been years but from what I remember it feels like units almost have 0 collision size. Play a midlane matchup where you cast skillshots and try to dodge the opponents skillshots and tell me you aren't "microing" like hell. I tried blocking creeps' movement as in HoN or Dota so I could fight farther from my opponent's tower. In my previous posts you'll see that I specifically was talking about interactions where you react directly with your opponent. Abusing the AI of neutral monsters =/ interacting with your opponent. Whether that's a good or bad thing is a different discussion but your not interacting directly with your opponent in the proces. | ||
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Yurie
11925 Posts
On September 17 2016 23:53 Grumbels wrote: Creep blocking in DotA is an artifact of WC3 pathfinding and I don't see how it positively contributes to the experience. There is a reason that DotA prevents you from killing your own units starting from full HP, it's along those same lines. It is one of the few mechanics inherent in the game which allows you to change lane equilibrium without the opponent being able to stop you from doing it (in most cases). The opponent can of course do the same thing or a different variant of blocking to get an edge. A very common block by the offlaner is letting the ranged creep go first by blocking the melee creeps, leading to it dying fast and you getting a push towards you, allowing safer xp/farm. An enemy can take agro to rebalance or do the same block or a pull to stabilise as they want again. If you remove the block you would need to rebalance the entire game more or less. Offlanes would become much harder. Many cases where blocking for 2-3 seconds leading to a better mid position next wave would be gone etc. None of these interactions are critical or even used in every game (except off lane blocking) but removing them would have big impacts when checking win % after change. Probably on 2-3% change negatively in borderline offlaners compared to the classical ones that can manage without. A secondary large impact of creep blocking that I don't think you meant is when creeps block heroes. It probably happens on average every third game that a hero dies due to creeps having collision sizes where they would not have without them. Getting stuck in a juke spot due to a creep in the way or not being able to pull back due to creeps being in the way, causing a 2s delay which was enough extra damage to die. A more normal interaction is not being able to walk through the creeps up to the enemy hero as quickly, making aggression 1-2 s slower, allowing for getting back easier if aggression is coming up the lane, which is another reason going from the side is so much stronger. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
Creeps blocking your hero so it dies is fine, they are an obstacle and you should have just avoided them if you wanted to have free passage. If you run into a wall you don't complain the wall doesn't jump aside for you. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16950 Posts
On September 17 2016 23:45 Hider wrote: ' As explained multiple times by now. There is zero potential for any mods due to lack of matchmaking and having a proper business model behind it to incentivize further playing. I am not sure what about this point you fail to understand. But sure I could give you the name to the SC2-based mod I have been working on along with a 30K words detailing all of the reasons behind the 1K+ changes. But.. probably no value in doing that. It has no potential, but it was a fun learning experience. Also, you still haven't responded to the Starbow question. You dare to admit you were talking out of your ass? TLDR: You just ignore everything I say over and over while living in your own bobble. Try and actually read and respond to what I am saying. no, as a consumer i have 4837583789 options because its easier than ever to make an RTS game and easier than ever to make any video game. if u give me another option for an RTS game ( my fav genre ).. i'll check it out. also, regarding your monetization issue.. there are now 34583434897 ways to fund your game development. never before have game makers had so many options to fund their game. making any consumer software is not easy.. however over the last 15 years it has become easier than ever. you talk about this impossible mountain that is game making and i just don't see it... this aint 1991. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
On September 18 2016 01:34 JimmyJRaynor wrote: no, as a consumer i have 4837583789 options because its easier than ever to make an RTS game and easier than ever to make any video game. if u give me another option for an RTS game ( my fav genre ).. i'll check it out. also, regarding your monetization issue.. there are now 34583434897 ways to fund your game development. never before have game makers had so many options to fund their game. making any consumer software is not easy.. however over the last 15 years it has become easier than ever. So avoiding my questions again. Starbow? If you avoid it again this will your 5th time. And if you forgot the question, go back and read it. It should be a pretty interesting case-study for someone like you. if u give me another option for an RTS game ( my fav genre ).. There have been 5-7 different Sc2 mods launched by different modmakers who all did their best to get people to play them. Tell me your thoughts on them and explain to me why they didn't become succesful. You obviously must have played them all because you are a "consumer who check it out". there are now 34583434897 ways to fund your game development Are you talking about SC2 editor mod now or switching subject? | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16950 Posts
On September 18 2016 01:39 Hider wrote: re you talking about SC2 editor mod now or switching subject? if i wanted to make an RTS game i'd making a working demo on the SC2 Editor, publish on BNet.. and then start looking for funding. now you can of course blow "demo" stage up and claim it'll take 20 people 2 years to make a demo. but that's not what a demo does. its a quick insight into what the game can become and can be made by a small team in a short time frame. probably the same kind of demo Artillery used to get its funding. compare this to my options in 2000 and it was a lot harder back then. and somehow.. games got made. if i wanted to go the "employee" route of becoming a game designer i'd follow the career path similar to David Kim or Greg Black. but, i only like playing games. i tried making games when i was a teenager and it just was not my thing. | ||
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goswser
United States3548 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
On September 18 2016 02:01 JimmyJRaynor wrote: if i wanted to make an RTS game i'd making a working demo on the SC2 Editor, publish on BNet.. and then start looking for funding. compare this to my options in 2000 and it was a lot harder back then. and somehow.. games got made. if i wanted to go the "employee" route of becoming a game designer i'd follow the career path similar to David Kim or Greg Black. but, i only like playing games. i tried making games when i was a teenager and it just was not my thing. Are you gonna respond to my previous comments? Or avoiding facing relevant questions for the 6th time? Like I am not sure how you expect people to have conversations with you when you ignore 80% of what people tell you. It's not going to go anyway. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
Artillery was a mess for a long time. As the head game designer I think you have to put a lot of the blame on Day[9] for the outcome. At the very least he should have seen the direction that the game was heading in and changed it long before it got to this point. What didn't you like about it? And did you tell the devs/day9? | ||
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goswser
United States3548 Posts
On September 18 2016 02:22 Hider wrote: What didn't you like about it? And did you tell the devs/day9? Taking objectives such as destroying towers didn't feel that important, resource collection felt overly complicated and confusing to new players, unit model sizes were too small, hero units didn't really feel like heroes. I got responses from the devs and other playtesters, not from day9 though. They actually made all the unit models larger after my feedback, and everyone I talked to in the discord including the devs liked the larger unit models more and thought it was the right direction to go in. | ||
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B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
On September 17 2016 23:31 Hider wrote: I have no idea why you are even attempting to defend Day9. Are you a fanboy? Now tell me how in anyway sort of shape his comment on pathing can be defended. When you both communicate badly (despite given countless chances) and the end-product is bad --> I think it's reasonable to make a conclusion. Please don't go around defending someone for the sake of defending someone. Sometimes criticism is valid. And if you have no arguments for why it's not, don't go into this discussion just to defend your idol (from my experience - that's usally the case). I didn't know asking a question instantly means I'm a fanboy. I'm getting the impression from the tone of your posts that you're attacking Day9 (again I don't really care) for reasons other than him having a different opinion of/vision for pathfinding than yours. I don't know what Day9's role was during the development of atlas which is why I'm hesitant to put the blame of Atlas' untimely failure on him. Why are you interpreting my asking a question as me defending Day9? I did not invalidate your criticism and why are you immediately going on a tangent of people blindly following their idols... On September 17 2016 23:53 Grumbels wrote: Creep blocking in DotA is an artifact of WC3 pathfinding and I don't see how it positively contributes to the experience. There is a reason that DotA prevents you from killing your own units starting from full HP, it's along those same lines. Creep blocking contributes to the experience because it creates more depth and allows people to lane close to their tower in case they're behind or want to set-up a gank. Anyway I'm not going to derail this thread any further with trying to compare LoL and HoN or whatever when I've only played one of them. On September 18 2016 01:15 Grumbels wrote: Of course creep blocking affects the game and as such has become part of the balance. But having to block your creeps so that they can die more easily is the sort of idiotic unintuiitive game mechanic developers are constantly fighting to remove. Creeps blocking your hero so it dies is fine, they are an obstacle and you should have just avoided them if you wanted to have free passage. If you run into a wall you don't complain the wall doesn't jump aside for you. I disagree completely. If it were for you, we'd probably have no moving shot, no drone drilling, no mutalisk clumping, no "stop" lurkers,... Unintuitive is synonymous with bad in your vocabulary, sounds very close-minded. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
On September 18 2016 02:54 goswser wrote: Taking objectives such as destroying towers didn't feel that important, resource collection felt overly complicated and confusing to new players, unit model sizes were too small, hero units didn't really feel like heroes. I got responses from the devs and other playtesters, not from day9 though. They actually made all the unit models larger after my feedback, and everyone I talked to in the discord including the devs liked the larger unit models more and thought it was the right direction to go in. But you enjoyed the core gameplay in terms of unit control? I didn't know asking a question instantly means I'm a fanboy. I'm getting the impression from the tone of your posts that you're attacking Day9 (again I don't really care) for reasons other than him having a different opinion of/vision for pathfinding than yours. I remember one time where a reddit user was downvoted after he pointed out that Nathanias casting showed that he lacked an understanding of relevant terran builds in the current meta. But Nathanias could get away with saying completely incorrect stuff and all of his fanboys would defend him because "he can do nothing wrong" and saying he is wrong = Your a hater. And this reddit user - who was 100% correct - was the one getting downvoted. That type of bullshit is what creates a shitty community. If you want progress. If you want meaningful discussions and actual analysis, then you give criticsm when criticism is needed. Imagine someone - in a relevant context - is saying that Person X is bad at math because he can't sum up 2+2. But person Y likes person X and therefore steps in order to say that this other dude is a hater and "attacking him". And that's exactly what you did. Day9 saying the pathing was perfect years ago is inexcuseable. If you thought that pathing was good = Your not a good designer, just like your not good at math if you can't sum up 2+2. And yes criticizing Day9 is needed because otherwise people would get the perception that Day9 was the good guy who just couldn't get his design decisions through and therefore left the company, and that it was the rest of Atlas who failed. Meanwhile Day9s design videos should continue to be perceived as widowm. (at least alot of users seems to think that). /End rant. | ||
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goswser
United States3548 Posts
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
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valaki
Hungary2476 Posts
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tedster
984 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
On September 18 2016 05:21 goswser wrote: No, I never found Artillery fun tbh. There aren't really any fun micro interactions. And you also provided that feedback? Did they respond in anyway? | ||
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