On August 17 2012 01:54 Andr3 wrote: If anything the cinematic showed that WoW isn't srs business, it's more light-hearted and fun. And there's nothing wrong with that, I guess you can say past cinematics were more serious but the vibe you get from WoW universe is that it's all fun in contrast to Diablo for example.
Really interested if world pvp makes a return in MoP, if so I'll stay for more than 3 months... World bosses are a step in the right direction, was nothing more fun than wiping enemy raid in vanilla when emerald dragons were walking around..fun times.
I'd say there has been a shift in philosophy from serious to light-hearted. And many don't take kindly to that because Warcraft built up a fantastic lore universe which to some, the light-heartedness becoming more and more canon takes away the history of Warcraft (and Azeroth).
Warcraft stopped being super-serious as soon as WC3 came out; the more cartoonish and graphics and over-the-top art design combined with several comical units and lines ensured this. Of course their is a level of seriousness at many points but the universe has always be sprinkled with plenty of comedy (such as Goblins, Dwarves, and Gnomes, plus lines and quests from several other races, even the Undead).
On August 17 2012 01:54 Andr3 wrote: If anything the cinematic showed that WoW isn't srs business, it's more light-hearted and fun. And there's nothing wrong with that, I guess you can say past cinematics were more serious but the vibe you get from WoW universe is that it's all fun in contrast to Diablo for example.
Really interested if world pvp makes a return in MoP, if so I'll stay for more than 3 months... World bosses are a step in the right direction, was nothing more fun than wiping enemy raid in vanilla when emerald dragons were walking around..fun times.
I'd say there has been a shift in philosophy from serious to light-hearted. And many don't take kindly to that because Warcraft built up a fantastic lore universe which to some, the light-heartedness becoming more and more canon takes away the history of Warcraft (and Azeroth).
Warcraft stopped being super-serious as soon as WC3 came out; the more cartoonish and graphics and over-the-top art design combined with several comical units and lines ensured this. Of course their is a level of seriousness at many points but the universe has always be sprinkled with plenty of comedy (such as Goblins, Dwarves, and Gnomes, plus lines and quests from several other races, even the Undead).
The Goblin Submarines in Warcraft 2, were giant sea turtles with rockets strapped to their backs.
I mean really? Who are these "Warcraft used to be serious!" people trying to kid?
The problem is that there aren't a lot of big bad guys left to defeat in the Warcraft universe, most of the big names have been defeated in WoW already. That's why they are doing Mists of Panderia, to pad for time since the major storylines of the original games have concluded.
In an expansion or two, the only major villain left will be Sargeras. Once he gets taken down as an inevitable Raid Boss, there won't be much left to resolve in the Warcraft Universe. Kind of a shame considering how much I enjoyed the lore prior to WoW, but that's how these things go, I guess.
On August 17 2012 02:52 Signus wrote: The problem is that there aren't a lot of big bad guys left to defeat in the Warcraft universe, most of the big names have been defeated in WoW already. That's why they are doing Mists of Panderia, to pad for time since the major storylines of the original games have concluded.
In an expansion or two, the only major villain left will be Sargeras. Once he gets taken down as an inevitable Raid Boss, there won't be much left to resolve in the Warcraft Universe. Kind of a shame considering how much I enjoyed the lore prior to WoW, but that's how these things go, I guess.
Or they could... you know. Make new enemies to defeat.
Look at the jump in lore from Warcraft 2 to Warcraft 3. No one bat an eye at that.
Original World of Warcraft introduced the Qiraji, made a huge point out of dragon bosses where before in Warcraft 3 they were just creeps and not major lore characters.
That's the awesome thing about an "ever evolving world." It's always evolving.
Mists of Panaria has Garrosh Hellscream slated as the final boss, personally I'm much more eager to kill his pompous butt than I ever was with Deathwing. Truthfully, we've run out of major Warcraft 3 lore characters ever since Arthas went down, that doesn't mean there won't be anymore compelling bosses for the rest of the game.
World of Warcraft: Classic had ONE major lore character as a boss in it and it was awesome. You don't need them to be successful.
On August 17 2012 02:52 Signus wrote: The problem is that there aren't a lot of big bad guys left to defeat in the Warcraft universe, most of the big names have been defeated in WoW already. That's why they are doing Mists of Panderia, to pad for time since the major storylines of the original games have concluded.
In an expansion or two, the only major villain left will be Sargeras. Once he gets taken down as an inevitable Raid Boss, there won't be much left to resolve in the Warcraft Universe. Kind of a shame considering how much I enjoyed the lore prior to WoW, but that's how these things go, I guess.
Or they could... you know. Make new enemies to defeat.
World of Warcraft: Classic had ONE major lore character as a boss in it and it was awesome. You don't need them to be successful.
And is that not what they are doing right now with the pandaren? Inventing new minor lore characters to fill the gap?
On August 17 2012 02:52 Signus wrote: The problem is that there aren't a lot of big bad guys left to defeat in the Warcraft universe, most of the big names have been defeated in WoW already. That's why they are doing Mists of Panderia, to pad for time since the major storylines of the original games have concluded.
In an expansion or two, the only major villain left will be Sargeras. Once he gets taken down as an inevitable Raid Boss, there won't be much left to resolve in the Warcraft Universe. Kind of a shame considering how much I enjoyed the lore prior to WoW, but that's how these things go, I guess.
Or they could... you know. Make new enemies to defeat.
World of Warcraft: Classic had ONE major lore character as a boss in it and it was awesome. You don't need them to be successful.
And is that not what they are doing right now with the pandaren? Inventing new minor lore characters to fill the gap?
I suppose that all depends on your definition of minor. At this point I consider characters made in WoW: Classic to be pretty major characters at this point, characters like Onyxia, Nefarian, Tyrion Fordring, Varian Wynn, Brann Bronzebeard, and High Overlord Saurfang. None of those guys existed prior to World of Warcraft.
Are they as major of lore characters as Arthas? Uther? Jaina or Thrall? No, but I wouldn't consider them minor characters.
As for what Blizzard is doing with the lore for Mists.
Are they writing a completely new chapter of lore with Pandaria? Yes. Will it be good? Bad? I don't know yet I haven't seen all of it yet.
Are they expanding on the lore of existing characters? Yes, Anduin Wynn plays a huge role in the Alliance quest lines, I'm not sure what the equivalent on Horde side is if there is one. Also Chen Stormstout makes his triumphant return to the franchise! He was the Pandaren in the cinematic.
Is the game going to suck because we're not killing any more major lore characters from previous games? No.
They almost certainly will make new enemies to defeat, but it's never going to have the same sort of impact as previous characters. Is anyone really going to bat an eye over killing Garrosh after they had already defeated the Lich King and the most powerful Dragon Aspect? I mean, he's just an Orc, that's a major step down from murdering Demi-Gods that threatened the entirety of Azeroth.
I know this expansion has put the Alliance vs Horde conflict as the major motivation behind it's story, but I think that aspect of warcraft has been pretty badly mishandled since Vanilla and it hasn't gotten better. Whenever they come to blows, it's over something stupid like a misunderstanding or someone being an asshole. There's never any real reason for them to fight and so it loses any weight it once had. They'll need something new again for the next expansion, but what are they going to do? Old Gods are old hat, no mortal enemy really feels powerful enough anymore, so that leaves the Burning Legion.
Kil'jaeden has been a joke throughout WoW and you've already foiled him once, so he hardly seems as dangerous as he was way back in Burning Crusade. The last major threat available is Sargeras, Warcraft's big bad himself, but I doubt he'll ever actually be fought. It's too hard to bullshit a believable raid encounter and even if they did do it, there would be almost no credible enemy left in the entire fiction. Blizzard has kind of backed themselves into a corner with their poor pacing, Garrosh being the final boss of MoP shows that they left the players kill off major villains too easily and now they are going to struggle to find worthwhile things for them to do until WoW stops putting out new content.
On the other hand though, the fact that the mortal races have killed demi-gods, old gods, demon lords, elemental lords, and dragons at this point just kind of shows how much more powerful the mortal races have been getting over time.
It's the same thing as in Dragon Ball Z where despite the fact that Goku had defeated Freiza, Cell and Majin Buu he still always had to contend with Vegeta who was keeping up right behind him the whole time and the conflict was always compelling because of the nature of their rivalry.
It's the same concept here. The Alliance and Horde have both become very powerful and have defeated every enemy that has come before them except for each other, that conflict is simply inevitable and it's compelling just for the sake that it's an old score that hasn't been truly settled yet.
On August 17 2012 03:34 Signus wrote: They almost certainly will make new enemies to defeat, but it's never going to have the same sort of impact as previous characters. Is anyone really going to bat an eye over killing Garrosh after they had already defeated the Lich King and the most powerful Dragon Aspect? I mean, he's just an Orc, that's a major step down from murdering Demi-Gods that threatened the entirety of Azeroth.
I know this expansion has put the Alliance vs Horde conflict as the major motivation behind it's story, but I think that aspect of warcraft has been pretty badly mishandled since Vanilla and it hasn't gotten better. Whenever they come to blows, it's over something stupid like a misunderstanding or someone being an asshole. There's never any real reason for them to fight and so it loses any weight it once had. They'll need something new again for the next expansion, but what are they going to do? Old Gods are old hat, no mortal enemy really feels powerful enough anymore, so that leaves the Burning Legion.
Kil'jaeden has been a joke throughout WoW and you've already foiled him once, so he hardly seems as dangerous as he was way back in Burning Crusade. The last major threat available is Sargeras, Warcraft's big bad himself, but I doubt he'll ever actually be fought. It's too hard to bullshit a believable raid encounter and even if they did do it, there would be almost credible enemy left in the entire fiction. Blizzard has kind of backed themselves into a corner with their poor pacing, Garrosh being the final boss of MoP shows that they left the players kill off major villains too easily and now they are going to struggle to find worthwhile things for them to do until WoW stops putting out new content.
I do believe they've said that since they aren't burdened that much anymore to follow the road of "Big Bads" they have created they have much more freedom to create new "Big Bads" and experiment. Thats what MoP "Big Bad" is I think. Creative freedom.
On August 17 2012 03:40 Vindicare605 wrote: On the other hand though, the fact that the mortal races have killed demi-gods, old gods, demon lords, elemental lords, and dragons at this point just kind of shows how much more powerful the mortal races have been getting over time.
It's the same thing as in Dragon Ball Z where despite the fact that Goku had defeated Freiza, Cell and Majin Buu he still always had to contend with Vegeta who was keeping up right behind him the whole time and the conflict was always compelling because of the nature of their rivalry.
It's the same concept here. The Alliance and Horde have both become very powerful and have defeated every enemy that has come before them except for each other, that conflict is simply inevitable and it's compelling just for the sake that it's an old score that hasn't been truly settled yet.
That's the exact problem. Alliance vs Horde shouldn't feel like a friendly rivalry, it should feel like a war between two factions who want the other side destroyed. But thanks to how the conflict has been set up, that can't really happen because both sides are the "good side". There is absolutely no reason for them to fight at all, both live on giant, mostly unpopulated continents with tons of resources. There's no real tension because of this, both sides want to live in peace or whatever, and that makes for a pretty dull war. Vegeta never tried to kill Goku in his sleep or anything like that because he just wanted to prove that he was the strongest even though that clearly wasn't the case. I doubt the Alliance is ever going to struck with that sort of jealousy, even if the Horde are constantly being lifted up by Blizzard as being the favorite faction.
Besides, Alliance vs Horde is okay for an expansion theme, but nothing about it really lends itself well to creating PvE content. That's why I don't believe them for a moment when they say they want to get away from BBEG stuff, they'll always need someone threatening the status quo so players have someone to kill.
On August 17 2012 03:34 Signus wrote: They almost certainly will make new enemies to defeat, but it's never going to have the same sort of impact as previous characters. Is anyone really going to bat an eye over killing Garrosh after they had already defeated the Lich King and the most powerful Dragon Aspect? I mean, he's just an Orc, that's a major step down from murdering Demi-Gods that threatened the entirety of Azeroth.
I know this expansion has put the Alliance vs Horde conflict as the major motivation behind it's story, but I think that aspect of warcraft has been pretty badly mishandled since Vanilla and it hasn't gotten better. Whenever they come to blows, it's over something stupid like a misunderstanding or someone being an asshole. There's never any real reason for them to fight and so it loses any weight it once had. They'll need something new again for the next expansion, but what are they going to do? Old Gods are old hat, no mortal enemy really feels powerful enough anymore, so that leaves the Burning Legion.
Kil'jaeden has been a joke throughout WoW and you've already foiled him once, so he hardly seems as dangerous as he was way back in Burning Crusade. The last major threat available is Sargeras, Warcraft's big bad himself, but I doubt he'll ever actually be fought. It's too hard to bullshit a believable raid encounter and even if they did do it, there would be almost no credible enemy left in the entire fiction. Blizzard has kind of backed themselves into a corner with their poor pacing, Garrosh being the final boss of MoP shows that they left the players kill off major villains too easily and now they are going to struggle to find worthwhile things for them to do until WoW stops putting out new content.
You're forgetting about the old gods, 2 remain right?
C'thun and Yogg Saron have provided some of the most interesting "side lore" yet in the warcraft universe
On August 17 2012 01:54 Andr3 wrote: If anything the cinematic showed that WoW isn't srs business, it's more light-hearted and fun. And there's nothing wrong with that, I guess you can say past cinematics were more serious but the vibe you get from WoW universe is that it's all fun in contrast to Diablo for example.
Really interested if world pvp makes a return in MoP, if so I'll stay for more than 3 months... World bosses are a step in the right direction, was nothing more fun than wiping enemy raid in vanilla when emerald dragons were walking around..fun times.
I'd say there has been a shift in philosophy from serious to light-hearted. And many don't take kindly to that because Warcraft built up a fantastic lore universe which to some, the light-heartedness becoming more and more canon takes away the history of Warcraft (and Azeroth).
Warcraft stopped being super-serious as soon as WC3 came out; the more cartoonish and graphics and over-the-top art design combined with several comical units and lines ensured this. Of course their is a level of seriousness at many points but the universe has always be sprinkled with plenty of comedy (such as Goblins, Dwarves, and Gnomes, plus lines and quests from several other races, even the Undead).
The Goblin Submarines in Warcraft 2, were giant sea turtles with rockets strapped to their backs.
I mean really? Who are these "Warcraft used to be serious!" people trying to kid?
This has always really, really made an impression on me. For the life of me I cannot understand how does anyone think that pandaren are any more light hearted and cartoonish than the rest of the WC3 lore. It goes perfectly in line with what Blizzard has created in the games and lore. The real trend here is that the "look and feel" of the game is disproportionately childish and cartoonish in comparison to the lore and content, this has always happened and I have no doubt it will repeat itself in MoP
Thing is though, what you just spelled out is a more realistic premise for a war than a "neither can exist while the other survives" premise that is so often used in fantasy literature.
You're also glossing over some things here that I'm going to go into.
First off, there's a lot of bad blood between the Orcs and Humans specifically. This one doesn't really need much elaboration.
Second, as far as resources go, the two continents aren't exactly equal. The Horde is pushing into Ashenvale forest for lumber, something they don't really have in huge abundance in the Barrens or Mulgore. The Night Elves, part of the Alliance, aren't too keen on this at all, so there's a huge basis for a conflict right there. Neither side is willing to be diplomatic about it, so they fight and each side brings their allies to the side to escalate what should be a minor border dispute. sounds very realistic to me.
In the Eastern Kingdoms you have an even greater and harder to solve dilemma. You have Lordaeron being held by the the Undead Forsaken.
A lot of people in Stormwind have family land titles in Lordaeron that they feel they have rightful claim to since their family is dead, except their family isn't dead, they are raised as Forsaken. How in the world do you solve THAT diplomatically. especially considering the Forsaken really ARE bad guys, looking to expand their hold on the Eastern Kingdoms using any means necessary as they demonstrated in GIl'neas when they plagued the whole city.
Those are two of the more major plot points for the current state of relations between two sides, add in two hot headed leaders and a series of events in both the Barrens and Stormtalon Mountains (go play the cataclysm leveling zones for more details) and it sure feels like a real war to me, not a "friendly rivalry" as you're making it out to be.
I already mentioned the Old Gods in a previous post. They were interesting, but how many times is Blizzard going to dig them out of the closet to give people a boss to kill? They can't keep rehashing the same basic story over and over and I think it would be hard for Blizzard to justify the remaining 2 being significantly stronger than the ones that have already been killed off.
On August 17 2012 04:03 Signus wrote: I already mentioned the Old Gods in a previous post. They were interesting, but how many times is Blizzard going to dig them out of the closet to give people a boss to kill? They can't keep rehashing the same basic story over and over and I think it would be hard for Blizzard to justify the remaining 2 being significantly stronger than the ones that have already been killed off.
Oh that last part's easy.
The two remaining old gods don't need to be stronger, they just need to be more cunning and better strategists.
Also keep in mind that C'Thun was gravely wounded from his fights with the Titans when we finished him off, while we also had a lot of help from the Titan Keepers in defeating Yogg-Saron.
The next old god we go up against will probably be at full strength and on his own ground when we go up against him. That's a much greater challenge than defeating an old god still trapped in his prison, and one that was nearly crippled from an ancient battle.
On August 17 2012 00:59 Toadily wrote: If you guys think M'uru pre-nerf was harder than Heroic LK (0-10% buff) you're out of your mind..
You say Yogg was easy and all about stacking affliction warlocks? To a degree yes, but you were obviously a ranged and never went down below if you think that was all there was to it.
And M'uru is about 100x less execution than these fights, it was all about stacking classes and getting enough damage. Every wave was the same, interrupt, kill, interrupt kill. Phase 2? Spread and don't get hit by balls.. man that was so hard and complex.. oh wait.
Not really true , for their times both encounters were equally demanding and esentailly just demanding dps/gear checks. Muru pre-interrupt nerf was absolutely retarded.
Oh this game again?! Can I play?!
Oh yea well, M'uru pre-interrupt nerf had NOTHING on C'Thun pre-nerf. Now THAT was retarded.
You Burning Crusade babies wouldn't have even made it past his trash, let alone killed him. What do you know about hard raid bosses?
Am I doing it right?
lol! True.
C'thun pre-nerf was literally impossible with the gear in the game at the time lol. Still my favourite boss of the last 8 years.
I wish the lore would expand on mortal characters rather than Gods or Aspects. As a poster mentioned, the lore of Warcraft 3 was amazing because of the characters that we were able to interact with.
I think developing Garrosh to be a possible main villain is the step in the right direction, but I do hope that there can be some epic surprises involving character development for new or existing heroes.
On August 17 2012 00:59 Toadily wrote: If you guys think M'uru pre-nerf was harder than Heroic LK (0-10% buff) you're out of your mind..
You say Yogg was easy and all about stacking affliction warlocks? To a degree yes, but you were obviously a ranged and never went down below if you think that was all there was to it.
And M'uru is about 100x less execution than these fights, it was all about stacking classes and getting enough damage. Every wave was the same, interrupt, kill, interrupt kill. Phase 2? Spread and don't get hit by balls.. man that was so hard and complex.. oh wait.
Not really true , for their times both encounters were equally demanding and esentailly just demanding dps/gear checks. Muru pre-interrupt nerf was absolutely retarded.
Oh this game again?! Can I play?!
Oh yea well, M'uru pre-interrupt nerf had NOTHING on C'Thun pre-nerf. Now THAT was retarded.
You Burning Crusade babies wouldn't have even made it past his trash, let alone killed him. What do you know about hard raid bosses?
Am I doing it right?
lol! True.
C'thun pre-nerf was literally impossible with the gear in the game at the time lol. Still my favourite boss of the last 8 years.
Speaking of C'thun, i still watch this classic from time to time
Watching the cinematic, the reactions from the orc and the human are pretty much what I'd expect on the situation. I mean, they are fighting to survive there. A new threat appears. Eliminate unknown threat with combining powers, then backstab over the forced truce.
For the curious, the lore is somewhere along these lines.
The Cataclysm has caused the mists protecting Pandaria to wear away, exposing it to the rest of Azeroth. A particularly fierce naval battle between the Alliance and Horde goes bad and both sides are shipwrecked and end up on the shores of Pandaria. This causes them to carry their war over there, and with it all the anguish and hatred. This stirs up something nasty in the land, and great aspects of this bad will rise and cause problems. The Alliance and Horde, with the aid of the Pandaren must go on one of those soul searching, Zen journeys to settle this is and work out what they really need to be fighting for.
EPT
