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[wow] Mists of pandaria - Page 15

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The NA-based TL WoW guild has been set: it is being formed on Cenarius as alliance. Talk to farvacola if you want more info!

Add yourself to the player list!

Use this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=434775 for Warlord of Draenor discussion please!
specjr
Profile Joined April 2010
39 Posts
October 25 2011 10:20 GMT
#281
Was there confirmation that with the annual pass you would get the Collectors edition of diablo 3? I read somewhere that you would, but couldn't find it again.

Also, which server are most of you on ? I would like to play with some fellow TLers if i re-subscribe
Pandemona *
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Charlie Sheens House51481 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-25 10:41:52
October 25 2011 10:39 GMT
#282
On October 25 2011 19:20 specjr wrote:
Was there confirmation that with the annual pass you would get the Collectors edition of diablo 3? I read somewhere that you would, but couldn't find it again.

Also, which server are most of you on ? I would like to play with some fellow TLers if i re-subscribe


It says on the Annual Pass screen itself, its just a regular edition of D3, it comes onto your account as soon as you sign up to it. Then when available it will let you begin the digital download to be able to play on release.



To everyone else that is bashing WoW: Mists of Pandaria, you have many a right to complain about an expansion you have not played....like how everyone is bashing HOTS before even playing it ^_^

I for one will play the expansion, but just like in Cata LK and TBC, if its no good you just stop playing but just because theres Panda's doesnt seem a good enough reason to stop playing. When blood elf came out for Horde people bashed and qq'd yet loads of Belfs roam Org and so forth.

A charachter based on Kung Fu lore seems interesting to me, if anything it just adds another epic class to the game, the healing on Monks is going to be completely different to other standard healers and there dps is all Kung Fu based moves (obviously)

It might look child like in the design but at the centre its still another expansion with more raids more dungeons and more loot. Thius 90% of people on WoW will continue to play the game.
ModeratorTeam Liquid Football Thread Guru! - Chelsea FC ♥
Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-25 10:54:11
October 25 2011 10:43 GMT
#283
On October 25 2011 05:19 TOloseGT wrote:
I think all the hate and angst is because of the poorly made trailer, and I mean poorly made in terms of representing what MoP is about. People think it's gonna be dedicated 100% to Pandarens, but when you look at the dungeon and talent panels, and listen to the devs talking about MoP, it's much more than that.

Just a day ago, we found out that + Show Spoiler +
Theramore Isles gonna get blown up by the Horde.
There's gonna be major changes happening, and it won't just be on Pandaria.

It's beyond the Pandas. It's the new talent system, valor system, lack of improvements for PvP. They say there will be world bosses, but they had them in BC too and they just didn't matter. Green dragons were the last time world PvP had any relevance in WoW and partially because they were a necessity for NR gear.

WoW is just not a good PvP game and GW2 and Tera are going to pull those players. WoW will still have the most polished end game content, but it won't occupy people for very long because it just can't anymore. And once you're done with your raids for the week, you're still just flying circles around whatever hub or doing silly achievements for a mount. People are making superficial complaints, myself included, but in reality the issue will be the same as its always been- the PvP is weak and there's nothing else to do after your weekly content is done.

Even after world PvP died down, it used to be that you PvEd so you could PvP better. Almost all of the best guilds are on PvP servers and the very best PvE guilds come from highly competitive ones and field top arena teams. Running flags in full Dreadnaught, or whirlwinding around an AB flag with MoM. Now you just PvE so you can PvE better, which is boring.
ModeratorNow I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
ViperPL
Profile Joined March 2011
Poland1775 Posts
October 25 2011 11:08 GMT
#284
I could live with pandas and monks, but pokemon is just too much. Although it will get them more money, since people are prolly gonna buy even more stupid pets from their store just to play pokemon!

Good thing I'm done with this game for good, so I don't really care what happens to it. I'll be happily killing Jedi with my lightsaber in SWTOR!
A dota player and lol player walk into a bar. The dota player says: "lol sucks". Lol player couldn't deny. http://i.imgur.com/FpLeTf1.gif
Jayme
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States5866 Posts
October 25 2011 12:06 GMT
#285
On October 25 2011 11:59 DoLookMoreLike wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 24 2011 06:02 zalz wrote:
On October 24 2011 05:22 PetitCrabe wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On October 24 2011 03:57 zalz wrote:
If all the people that dislike this expansion on youtube would actually up and leave the game (give or take 50%) the game would still have about 5 million paying players left and it would still be the biggest paid MMO out there.

There are games like EVE that run their MMO with a 50k player base and it still turns a profit.

I would not be suprised if WoW is still around 10 years from now. It is just so massive and can take such a drop in playerbase before it starts losing money that it's ridiculous to suggest it's ever really going to die.

WoW will die when Blizz pulls the plug on it. Literally pulling the server plug. Until then it will turn a profit. Maybe it's the monstrous profit machine that it is now or maybe it will go to korean-mmo levels.

Pandas won't change any of that.


Although WoW is th biggest MMO out there, I'm pretty sure some other MMOs are in the millions of players too. But just go on the forums, there seem to be a huge shitstorm of complaining on it, but if you read the threads, most people tend to agree that its going to be a great expansion and they are eager to play it. I guess the ones complaining are only a small but VERY vocal minority


What MMO has millions of subscriptions? I can't think of a single one. All the WoW killers have maybe 100.000 players. People often forget how big a difference there is between WoW and the 2nd up. Heck most of the MMO games have been drifting towards a free to play subscription model because they find themselves unable to compete.



I think you're right. I know Lineage and Lineage 2 probably have 1-2 million subscribers (at 15$/month) between them but that's it. DAoC also has a fairly large player base but it's definitely not in the millions.

OT: I think that the biggest thing WoW has going for it is the gameplay. The way your character plays and the way the controls are very free, at least that's the only reason I've preferred WoW over other games I've tried. I'm not super excited about the pandas but I kinda like the Asian-theme, seems like a good new theme to WoW.

Show nested quote +
On October 25 2011 10:58 Jayme wrote:
On October 24 2011 05:29 arb wrote:
On October 22 2011 06:34 andrewlt wrote:
On October 22 2011 06:00 suxN wrote:
On October 22 2011 05:58 anrimayu wrote:
On October 22 2011 05:53 Thorakh wrote:
On October 22 2011 05:51 Bleak wrote:
On October 22 2011 05:48 Thorakh wrote:
Seriously, it starts getting better and better. What's with all the hate...


If you cannot see why, I don't have more to say. Either the fanboyism clouds your judgment, or you're a relatively new WoW player who don't know much about its past.

The game where one used to fight C'Thun and Illidan has turned into a game of pokemons and pandas. What is there not to hate?
I have played since TBC. I've raided pretty hardcore. I'm excited for this expansion.

Jesus, look past the pandas and pokemans and you'll see a rough gem. One that Blizzard will break, of course, but the potential is there at least.


The fact that you can use term "hardcore" implies that you dont play WoW anymore. It takes atmost 2 days to clear everything and be done for the week. I thought worgens were dumb, but this definitely tops it.


The worst race ever has been draenei but tbc was a good expansion even with them
*edit also i dont know much about hardcore playing mmo's but arent those hardmode bosses actually pretty damn hard? according to paragon HM ragnaros10 has been the hardest boss to kill during whole wow.



The heroic version of the last boss is always extremely difficult. Heroic Yogg-Saron, Arthas, Ragnaros, Sinestra are all harder than M'uru. My guild used to raid 22 hours a week when I joined in late 2005. It's down to around 10 hours a week on average now and I'm actually glad. The game is not new anymore and I think most people can't raid that long for very long stretches of time.

There were very few bosses in vanilla and TBC that could hold a candle against the average heroic bosses in current raids. The biggest problem to me is the ridiculous difference in difficulty between normal raids and heroic raids.

I would agree with you, but everything ive read(and heard from people that have cleared everything) said Sinestra wasnt even the most difficult boss of the tier, for t12 though Rag is defiantly the most difficult

The fact that he claims sinestra is more difficult than one of the tightest dps fight blizz has ever made strikes me as odd.

Yea yogg saron and the lich king were up there but nothing in cata comes remotely close to some of the bs naxx 40 prenerf tbc brought us.

Hell sinestra is a glorified chrommagus

As for this expansion.....LOL is all I have to say. Lets just have the sargeras raid already and end this. At least wrath had decent raids in ulduar and icecrown....cata has been total shit.


While I do agree with most of the things you say, Cata has had far more challenging raids (pre-nerfs) then WotLK. On the other hand the main villain in WotLK was more believable and Ulduar was amazing.

On the topic of naxx 40 I think you're very much right. But we have to remember that back then people were much worse at this game. I remember watching some of our vanilla-wow server-first videos a couple of months back and all the people featured were clicking and back-pedaling like crazy. Nowadays, however, those same people (the ones getting the server-firsts) have everything keybound and guides and addons to help them achieve those kills. While this is all good; it is making it increasingly difficult for Blizzard to create content that is accessible to both the before mentioned "hardcore" gamers and the people new to the game.
Obviously Blizzard are trying to do this by adding Normal (and even an easier version) and heroic version of raids and nerfing HC / Normal content after it's been cleared by the more "hardcore"-guild but everything has just become increasingly complicated for them.

Sorry for the long post. Cheers.


You know what? You're right. People have definitely gotten better at this game.

I actually spent an hour or so thinking about it because man, the vanilla/TBC days I had with my guild were some of the most fun I have ever had playing a game in my life.

Really high end guilds generally had custom mod makers in their ranks. It was a requirement when the game was in vanilla/tbc. Needless to say the really top end guilds had generally the same tools that everyone else has now in maybe a slightly more primitive form.

So I want to go about how I define what a difficult boss entails. I was pretty much on the cutting edge of raid content from Vanilla through Ulduar. My guild stopped being super hardcore after Ulduar because that fire just ran out. At any rate when I'm talking about hardcore raiding I'm talking about those draconian 8 hour a day raid schedules with NO DAY OFF when we were going for progression...hell the application to our guild was basically "Raid Schedule is subject to change. When we're doing progression it's from 6pm until you're dragging your bloody face across the floor as you crawl to bed." . Yes it's insane, but I played WoW to get world firsts...or at least stay within the top ten. It took dedication, time, and a whole hell of a lot of effort. I played most of my WoW while I was in college and did fine. Most of all I HAD FUN doing it so that's what I did.

Bosses are 100 times more difficult to defeat when you do not have a guide that tells you everything. Furthermore, this was exacerbated in Vanilla/TBC because they had many more concepts with which to mind fuck you with. These days a warlock tank isn't exactly an alien concept. When Twin Emperors came out it was more along the lines of "HOW DO WE TANK THE MAGIC GUY WITHOUT BLOWING OUR RAID UP?" Sure having a warlock tank is an obvious solution when you already know the answer, but let me assure you that when someone suggested that the first time around he was told to shut the fuck up and not talk unless he had something important to say(In a joking manner yes but it was dismissed rather quickly). He was rewarded later when it turned out that's exactly what's needed. Now add that really odd concept while trying to figure out why the fuck these two bosses are constantly healing themselves, when they teleport, how the immunities work, etc etc etc. It is incredibly overwhelming to figure out how to defeat a boss when you just don't know how they work.

The game is very different now than it was back then. I find two changes to be the most important. The first one was that stamina was just plain lower. This was a mix of obviously, lower ilevel gear...but the biggest change was that in TBC Stamina was valued at half the points per ilevel that every other stat was. HP took a huge leap in TBC for that very reason. A priest in full t3 (I go with this because I mained a priest) was lucky to have 4000 hp raid buffed. Tanks were amazing if they hit 10k HP. This meant of course that there was little wiggle room for boss abilities. They either hurt a fucking lot or didn't hurt at all. There really was no in between.

The other main change is healers being able to downrank their heals. I lost a lot of my passion for healing when this was removed near the end of TBC. I thought it gave an incredible amount of depth to healing and how to do it in your own way. I healed in a very different way than my raid leader (he was a priest as well) but neither of our assigned tanks really had issues dying. The fact that there wasn't just ONE WAY to do something was always a big draw for me.

Anyway I generally rank boss difficulty on how difficult it was to deal with what they did and how long it took to figure it out. For demonstrative purposes I'll use a relatively simple boss to explain the thought process even with a simple one. 40 man Loatheb was considered completely impossible when guilds first reached him. Everyone basically wiped at about 55-60% until people started to figure out how to go about killing him. Loatheb really only has five abilities that need to be worried about.

So you're engaging Loatheb for the very first time and have to figure out how to kill him. For us at least we noticed the obvious thing immediately. This corrupted mind debuff kinda sucks. Healers could now only cast one healing spell A MINUTE. This concept was hella new and never before seen. The next couple of things fell in this order...First Loatheb doesn't hit very hard. This is really odd for Naxxramas and starts to send off alarms in everyone's head. Second, melee is receiving this really weak ass poison aura. It's obviously melee range only because ranged isn't getting it but it's only doing like 200 damage every 6 seconds. This doesn't make any damn sense whatsoever. By this time Blizzard didn't do shit without a reason in boss fights. The other thing was that Loatheb's health was dropping awfully slowly, so he had a fuck ton of HP. The calculations were already coming out at roughly 5.3mil HP...that's a lot of HP.

Then you see this yellow spiky ball appear to the side. You send a tank and a few people to go kill it because who the hell knows what it does. To the shock of everyone the thing dies in one hit. One DPS notices he got a buff. A few others got the buff but not everyone that went got the buff. The buff is pretty neat, 50% melee crit and 60% spell crit with no threat? Yes please.

So he has a lot of HP but there is this huge damage buff from these spores we can get. Figuring out that there has to be a healing rotation on the tank is an absolute no brainer. So hey, if this is all there is to the fight...we're figuring he enrages in like 5 minutes or something. A tight DPS race sure but nothing too bad.

Then the first Inevitable Doom hits. Nobody has any clue what the hell this does, the tooltip tells us nothing, and its on for ten seconds. Everyone knows it's something bad but WHATEVER lets go.

It hits for 2550 shadow damage. Most everyone is going "WTF?" For the majority of the raid that's at least 50% of their hp. For the healers its closer to 60%. Well healers can't heal this damage back up because they only can cast a heal every minute. Well maybe it only comes out every minute or something.

30 seconds later it comes out again. A wipe promptly occurs.

Most everyone is baffled. Initially we think well maybe we need shadow resistance? The issue with that is that there was no shadow resistance set out there. Frost/Nature/Fire sure..but not shadow. Even then we go through the damage logs and find that nobody resisted any of the shadow damage at all so clearly the damage isn't resistible and resistance is useless for us. Healing potions are on a 3 minute cooldown so it just wont be enough.

So starts the epic wipes. Around wipe 30 or so we finally figure out when the Spores spawn and how many people can acquire it at the same time. Turns out to be 5. This night is over, we spend our free time drawing up a bunch of spreadsheets to figure out the most efficient way to spread out the buff so we get the most out of it. Clearly this fight has to be done quickly because we just can't survive for very long at all.

The next day we wipe a good 10 more times and figure out a DPS rotation we like. By now our healing rotation is comfortable but that inevitable doom nonsense is just an epic road block. We probably wipe another 30-40 times that day trying shit. We try EVERYTHING we can think of, from popping spores onto loatheb to silencing to whatever else we tried. Nothing at all would stop him from casting this shit.

Day 3 comes around and we've finally figured out we just have to deal with the Dooms. They come out every 30 seconds after roughly 2 minutes. So we try a bunch of different Prayer of Healing rotations with Health pots and see where we get.

30 more wipes or so later and we get to minute 5 and boom all of a sudden Dooms come at 15 seconds instead of 30...the fucker is still at like 50% hp because we took away DPS to heal damage... and yea. Hysterical laughter from sorrow ensues.

At some point during our late night drunk induced brainstorming session during Day 4 or so some asshole comes up with using healthstones with greater shadow protection pots and bandages. The reason he was an asshole is because GSPP are notoriously annoying to farm because the materials used for them are really really just annoying to get.

However, we are pretty much reduced to this. We need more dps so dps has to heal themselves with stuff like that. We quickly figure out that GSPP last an hour but the cooldown is only 3 minutes sooo if we use one before a fight then we can use three throughout the course of the fight. We can use different ranks of improved healthstones etc etc.

Back to the drawing board. Spreadsheets are made up AGAIN, this time for people healing their own damage. We wipe terribly as usual until we figure out something that works. BAM all of a sudden we're wiping at 25% instead of 50%. OH DEAR GOD WE'RE MAKING PROGRESS. 10% hits, 5% hits. We hit a minor road block at 5% A lot of lament that maybe we're still doing it wrong (That's possible after all, you don't know for sure without a guide telling you)

Whatever, we muscle on. Squeeze every bit of DPS out we can, even from healers (who actually switched to DPS consumables O.O) and finally the fucker dies. I don't remember what our ranking was but it was satisfying.

This is just from Loatheb. I still have the original spreadsheets for that dumb boss on my old computer. Loatheb is simple on paper. Put something down like 40 man Kel'Thuzard...40 man 4Hm...unnerfed Vashj and my post would be three times as long as this mammoth one already is. The shit was a challenge, a big big challenge.

Once Wrath and Cata came around...it was difficult for Blizzard to come up with new things to surprise people with. Everything by then had in some way been seen before besides some parts of YoggSaron and Lich King (Its not coincidence that those tend to be the most well liked fights in wrath)

My guild was much more fluid and able to see a boss mechanic, figure it out, and know the best way to deal with it in Wrath by an order of magnitude when compared to Vanilla.

So perhaps Cataclysm end boss heroics ARE actually harder than Vanilla but we were just able to figure it out much easier because we knew what to do. I don't really know the answer to that question.

I will never take away from guilds like Paragon, Vodka, Method etc etc that are the current cutting edge. They are all really good guilds and would still be successful in Vanilla/TBC if those bosses were indeed more difficult. However, I believe it was Paragon that said something to the effect that Lich King Heroic was the hardest boss that blizzard ever made...and I just couldn't disagree more. I found Lich King easy as all hell to figure out how to kill, it just came down to pure execution. No late nights trying to calculate shit out, no drunken fun times, nothing like that was required to kill him. I still hold that 40 man Kel'Thuzad was the most difficult boss that blizzard ever made, followed by a toss up between C'thun, 40 4HM, and Hard Mode Yogg Saron.

I'd go into a rant about why I think the achievement system is dog shit but this post is long enough as it is....
Python is garbage, number 1 advocate of getting rid of it.
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10686 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-25 12:25:43
October 25 2011 12:22 GMT
#286
I actually liked Cata for the leveling and the "fresh" heroics/raiding.. But it became a stupid grind quickly after and i stopped again ^^.



What WoW should do to "become good" again for me:

Stop recylcing:
No Heroic modes, at least not in the natural "tier/raiding" progression.
No "nostalgic/classic" instances, or at least TRUE makeovers with different architecture and everything (The CoT instances in TBC did this good... ) and not just some different Mobs.

Stop giving gear for pure grinds:
No epics for "faction" or at least WAY less..
No epics for "points from finished heroics" or at least WAY less...
Instead:
"Smart" Drops from Bosses... It's annoying when after 10 weeks still no Pala/Priest/WL has his shoulders while our Shamans are full epic in all their speccs... Smart Drops EVERYWHERE.. 5 mans, 10 mans, 25 mans...

Remove flying mounts:
World PvP/Ganking was fun. Actually it was the only PvP that truly was fun... Bring it back .

Remove instance teleporting / auto-grouping...:
I don't care if it's annoying to walk to an instance entrance, it just belonged to the experience.
I don't care for people that are to retarded to get a big friend list. Most likely they got no friends to to instances with because they are fucking terrible and destroy the experience for everyone else.



Well, one can dream :D.


Sokalo
Profile Joined May 2010
United States375 Posts
October 25 2011 12:35 GMT
#287
Jayme, as someone who never cared for raiding, I still can appreciate that for the epic post that it is. Until now I hadn't stumbled upon a reasonable explanation as to what anyone found in it.

I've had some of those experiences with different games and now I'm feeling sad I never got to find them in WoW.
"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
October 25 2011 13:28 GMT
#288
Jayme, I still say Gothik was the most difficult. If you were on the physical side it was a bit simpler but the CC and DPS execution for mages/priests/warlocks was crazy. More control needed than anything else I've done in WoW.
ModeratorNow I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
Vortok
Profile Joined December 2009
United States830 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-25 13:30:34
October 25 2011 13:28 GMT
#289
On October 24 2011 05:29 arb wrote:
I would agree with you, but everything ive read(and heard from people that have cleared everything) said Sinestra wasnt even the most difficult boss of the tier, for t12 though Rag is defiantly the most difficult

That's because Blizzard changed Sinestra a couple dozen times with hotfixes while people were working on world firsts. Literally stuff that worked on one attempt didn't work the next. It's kind of amusing when you think about it. You have a 10m+ playerbase and you're basically designing hard modes to challenge the top 1% of the top 1%. Chances are your testing department, even being as popular as Blizzard is, doesn't have people of the playing caliber to actually be able to adequately test something like that without endlessly wiping (especially considering it requires 10/25 people bare minimum to be that good... in a game testing job).

The overall theme I've heard sounds good so far. Horde vs. Alliance with random world stuff, as opposed to yet another big bad evil, let's join forces to fight them off for the 12th time. It's like... hey, there's nobody threatening to destroy all of reality.... *looks over* I still hate your guts. *stab*

Pandaren are ok as a neutral race (don't like 'em, but WoW is indeed one giant comical joke and they fit in... I mean, there's an NPC whose last name is Shoryuken in Feralas). Monk is an obvious neutralish class choice. Just wish they didn't do both at once so it didn't scream "Kung Fu Panda" so damn loud.

Pet battles sound like teams of three, three moves each. Sounds like a watered down, sucky version of Pokemon (shocker). Many people (as in, already out of high school age) play competitive Pokemon and quite enjoy it. I'm a little skeptical that Blizzard will make their knock off compelling enough. Time will tell, as it is Blizzard. They're generally pretty good at what they do.



I bet Blizzard has talked about mounted combat and the like a lot. You know why it's not in the game? Because it couldn't just be your normal abilities, but while flying fast in three dimensions (and thus fucking melee super hard)... that's underwater combat (minus move super fast... oh wait, Aquatic form druids, trollolol) from Cata, more or less. So it would have be a bit different.

Know what else is a bit different? Vehicles. Vehicles worked fine, they were useable, and were a different way to do a fight. But WoW tries to appeal to the mainstream, and the majority of people bitched a fit about vehicles. Either they couldn't figure them out (reading tooltips is hard), or whined about not being able to use their character/class's abilities (waawaa, I spend time making my character cool, learning how to use my class abilities, and now he's not actually fighting, waawaa) that they're used to for once.

Oculus was literally one of the fastest Heroics in Wrath and really was pretty straightforward, yet seemingly half the playerbase would autoquit if they were put into it (even when dps had to sit through 30 minute queue times) by the dungeon finder. All because they couldn't figure out how to use a mount (one of three options) that had, at max... three buttons. And one of those was only for the last fight. So two buttons for the rest of the instance. TWO. The Argent tournament was their other attempt... as that was literally mounted combat. I didn't mind it, though it was a bit simplistic. Again enough people whined that they never went further and tried to do more with it.

If people react so negatively to small things like that, they'll bitch a storm about mounted combat having pretty much any variation from "normal" combat. I'm sure Blizzard would love to try implementing something like they've done on a broader scale and more in depth, but the giant bitchfest that would ensue from people wouldn't really make it a worthwhile way to spend dev time.


The talent system is interesting and laughable, at the same time. They claim that they want to avoid cookie cutter specs, and that two people of the same specialization (Fury Warrior and Fury Warrior, for example) might have taken different talents. Just looking at the current talents (expect some to change, obviously) there are some super obvious winners for around 70% of the choices. My current favorite is the level 90 rank for Druids. The three current options are trash, ass, and holy-shit-why-would-you-ever-take-anything-else.

For reference: http://www.wowhead.com/mists-of-pandaria-talent-calculator#d
Jayme
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States5866 Posts
October 25 2011 13:33 GMT
#290
On October 25 2011 22:28 Jibba wrote:
Jayme, I still say Gothik was the most difficult. If you were on the physical side it was a bit simpler but the CC and DPS execution for mages/priests/warlocks was crazy. More control needed than anything else I've done in WoW.


Gothik is most definitely up there I have to agree. If I had continued that list he would have been mentioned next. That fight was something special.

The reason why I consider KT harder is that even after knowing everything he did and figuring out a good way to deal with it, we still wiped to him over 100 times. The second kill was hell as well.

Gothik on the other hand was pretty much farm status after the first kill. Once you knew when priests had to start shackling, and mages had to start sheeping in order to not overwhelm the Physical side it became clear.

Of course finding out that order was absolute hell. Lol the only other boss that had more Microsoft Excel work done on it was 4HM :p

He was probably my favorite boss fight aside from Kel'thuzad.
Python is garbage, number 1 advocate of getting rid of it.
Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
October 25 2011 13:44 GMT
#291
On October 25 2011 22:28 Vortok wrote:
The talent system is interesting and laughable, at the same time. They claim that they want to avoid cookie cutter specs, and that two people of the same specialization (Fury Warrior and Fury Warrior, for example) might have taken different talents. Just looking at the current talents (expect some to change, obviously) there are some super obvious winners for around 70% of the choices. My current favorite is the level 90 rank for Druids. The three current options are trash, ass, and holy-shit-why-would-you-ever-take-anything-else.

For reference: http://www.wowhead.com/mists-of-pandaria-talent-calculator#d

Agreed, looking at the Mage, Rogue and Paladin talents, it's pretty obvious which talents you're going to take if you're serious about PvE or PvP, and which for DPS, Tanking, Healing, etc. No matter what, there's always going to be a best spec for any given encounter.
ModeratorNow I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
turdburgler
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
England6749 Posts
October 25 2011 14:08 GMT
#292
On October 25 2011 19:43 Jibba wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 25 2011 05:19 TOloseGT wrote:
I think all the hate and angst is because of the poorly made trailer, and I mean poorly made in terms of representing what MoP is about. People think it's gonna be dedicated 100% to Pandarens, but when you look at the dungeon and talent panels, and listen to the devs talking about MoP, it's much more than that.

Just a day ago, we found out that + Show Spoiler +
Theramore Isles gonna get blown up by the Horde.
There's gonna be major changes happening, and it won't just be on Pandaria.

It's beyond the Pandas. It's the new talent system, valor system, lack of improvements for PvP. They say there will be world bosses, but they had them in BC too and they just didn't matter. Green dragons were the last time world PvP had any relevance in WoW and partially because they were a necessity for NR gear.

WoW is just not a good PvP game and GW2 and Tera are going to pull those players. WoW will still have the most polished end game content, but it won't occupy people for very long because it just can't anymore. And once you're done with your raids for the week, you're still just flying circles around whatever hub or doing silly achievements for a mount. People are making superficial complaints, myself included, but in reality the issue will be the same as its always been- the PvP is weak and there's nothing else to do after your weekly content is done.

Even after world PvP died down, it used to be that you PvEd so you could PvP better. Almost all of the best guilds are on PvP servers and the very best PvE guilds come from highly competitive ones and field top arena teams. Running flags in full Dreadnaught, or whirlwinding around an AB flag with MoM. Now you just PvE so you can PvE better, which is boring.


half the problem is that world pvp has never been understood by blizzard, every time they 'force' it by putting in superficial objectives people dont care, thats not really world pvp, its just a really big bg. then they hit the nail on the head by accident with half their quest hubs and either make them sanctuaries or put guards in that hit for 10000000 dmg.

blizzard need to extend the rule differences between realms, pvp realms need to stop having guards that rape everyone and quest hubs you cant fight over. remember when wintergrasp was announced? with its quest hub to fight over? sounded so good until you realised that the quests there were few and pointless, and you only only fight over them every 200 minutes in the wg battle.

they need a dynamic objective, like haala almost was, but make the quests worth doing, dont have any guards or stupid siege mechanic either. force the player to actually defend the place if they want it. these things seem so simple but blizz either doesnt know or doesnt care :D
Pandemona *
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Charlie Sheens House51481 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-25 14:21:38
October 25 2011 14:20 GMT
#293
On October 25 2011 21:06 Jayme wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 25 2011 11:59 DoLookMoreLike wrote:
On October 24 2011 06:02 zalz wrote:
On October 24 2011 05:22 PetitCrabe wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On October 24 2011 03:57 zalz wrote:
If all the people that dislike this expansion on youtube would actually up and leave the game (give or take 50%) the game would still have about 5 million paying players left and it would still be the biggest paid MMO out there.

There are games like EVE that run their MMO with a 50k player base and it still turns a profit.

I would not be suprised if WoW is still around 10 years from now. It is just so massive and can take such a drop in playerbase before it starts losing money that it's ridiculous to suggest it's ever really going to die.

WoW will die when Blizz pulls the plug on it. Literally pulling the server plug. Until then it will turn a profit. Maybe it's the monstrous profit machine that it is now or maybe it will go to korean-mmo levels.

Pandas won't change any of that.


[spoiler[Although WoW is th biggest MMO out there, I'm pretty sure some other MMOs are in the millions of players too. But just go on the forums, there seem to be a huge shitstorm of complaining on it, but if you read the threads, most people tend to agree that its going to be a great expansion and they are eager to play it. I guess the ones complaining are only a small but VERY vocal minority


What MMO has millions of subscriptions? I can't think of a single one. All the WoW killers have maybe 100.000 players. People often forget how big a difference there is between WoW and the 2nd up. Heck most of the MMO games have been drifting towards a free to play subscription model because they find themselves unable to compete.



I think you're right. I know Lineage and Lineage 2 probably have 1-2 million subscribers (at 15$/month) between them but that's it. DAoC also has a fairly large player base but it's definitely not in the millions.

OT: I think that the biggest thing WoW has going for it is the gameplay. The way your character plays and the way the controls are very free, at least that's the only reason I've preferred WoW over other games I've tried. I'm not super excited about the pandas but I kinda like the Asian-theme, seems like a good new theme to WoW.

On October 25 2011 10:58 Jayme wrote:
On October 24 2011 05:29 arb wrote:
On October 22 2011 06:34 andrewlt wrote:
On October 22 2011 06:00 suxN wrote:
On October 22 2011 05:58 anrimayu wrote:
On October 22 2011 05:53 Thorakh wrote:
On October 22 2011 05:51 Bleak wrote:
On October 22 2011 05:48 Thorakh wrote:
Seriously, it starts getting better and better. What's with all the hate...


If you cannot see why, I don't have more to say. Either the fanboyism clouds your judgment, or you're a relatively new WoW player who don't know much about its past.

The game where one used to fight C'Thun and Illidan has turned into a game of pokemons and pandas. What is there not to hate?
I have played since TBC. I've raided pretty hardcore. I'm excited for this expansion.

Jesus, look past the pandas and pokemans and you'll see a rough gem. One that Blizzard will break, of course, but the potential is there at least.


The fact that you can use term "hardcore" implies that you dont play WoW anymore. It takes atmost 2 days to clear everything and be done for the week. I thought worgens were dumb, but this definitely tops it.


The worst race ever has been draenei but tbc was a good expansion even with them
*edit also i dont know much about hardcore playing mmo's but arent those hardmode bosses actually pretty damn hard? according to paragon HM ragnaros10 has been the hardest boss to kill during whole wow.



The heroic version of the last boss is always extremely difficult. Heroic Yogg-Saron, Arthas, Ragnaros, Sinestra are all harder than M'uru. My guild used to raid 22 hours a week when I joined in late 2005. It's down to around 10 hours a week on average now and I'm actually glad. The game is not new anymore and I think most people can't raid that long for very long stretches of time.

There were very few bosses in vanilla and TBC that could hold a candle against the average heroic bosses in current raids. The biggest problem to me is the ridiculous difference in difficulty between normal raids and heroic raids.

I would agree with you, but everything ive read(and heard from people that have cleared everything) said Sinestra wasnt even the most difficult boss of the tier, for t12 though Rag is defiantly the most difficult

The fact that he claims sinestra is more difficult than one of the tightest dps fight blizz has ever made strikes me as odd.

Yea yogg saron and the lich king were up there but nothing in cata comes remotely close to some of the bs naxx 40 prenerf tbc brought us.

Hell sinestra is a glorified chrommagus

As for this expansion.....LOL is all I have to say. Lets just have the sargeras raid already and end this. At least wrath had decent raids in ulduar and icecrown....cata has been total shit.


While I do agree with most of the things you say, Cata has had far more challenging raids (pre-nerfs) then WotLK. On the other hand the main villain in WotLK was more believable and Ulduar was amazing.

On the topic of naxx 40 I think you're very much right. But we have to remember that back then people were much worse at this game. I remember watching some of our vanilla-wow server-first videos a couple of months back and all the people featured were clicking and back-pedaling like crazy. Nowadays, however, those same people (the ones getting the server-firsts) have everything keybound and guides and addons to help them achieve those kills. While this is all good; it is making it increasingly difficult for Blizzard to create content that is accessible to both the before mentioned "hardcore" gamers and the people new to the game.
Obviously Blizzard are trying to do this by adding Normal (and even an easier version) and heroic version of raids and nerfing HC / Normal content after it's been cleared by the more "hardcore"-guild but everything has just become increasingly complicated for them.

Sorry for the long post. Cheers.

+ Show Spoiler +

You know what? You're right. People have definitely gotten better at this game.

I actually spent an hour or so thinking about it because man, the vanilla/TBC days I had with my guild were some of the most fun I have ever had playing a game in my life.

Really high end guilds generally had custom mod makers in their ranks. It was a requirement when the game was in vanilla/tbc. Needless to say the really top end guilds had generally the same tools that everyone else has now in maybe a slightly more primitive form.

So I want to go about how I define what a difficult boss entails. I was pretty much on the cutting edge of raid content from Vanilla through Ulduar. My guild stopped being super hardcore after Ulduar because that fire just ran out. At any rate when I'm talking about hardcore raiding I'm talking about those draconian 8 hour a day raid schedules with NO DAY OFF when we were going for progression...hell the application to our guild was basically "Raid Schedule is subject to change. When we're doing progression it's from 6pm until you're dragging your bloody face across the floor as you crawl to bed." . Yes it's insane, but I played WoW to get world firsts...or at least stay within the top ten. It took dedication, time, and a whole hell of a lot of effort. I played most of my WoW while I was in college and did fine. Most of all I HAD FUN doing it so that's what I did.

Bosses are 100 times more difficult to defeat when you do not have a guide that tells you everything. Furthermore, this was exacerbated in Vanilla/TBC because they had many more concepts with which to mind fuck you with. These days a warlock tank isn't exactly an alien concept. When Twin Emperors came out it was more along the lines of "HOW DO WE TANK THE MAGIC GUY WITHOUT BLOWING OUR RAID UP?" Sure having a warlock tank is an obvious solution when you already know the answer, but let me assure you that when someone suggested that the first time around he was told to shut the fuck up and not talk unless he had something important to say(In a joking manner yes but it was dismissed rather quickly). He was rewarded later when it turned out that's exactly what's needed. Now add that really odd concept while trying to figure out why the fuck these two bosses are constantly healing themselves, when they teleport, how the immunities work, etc etc etc. It is incredibly overwhelming to figure out how to defeat a boss when you just don't know how they work.

The game is very different now than it was back then. I find two changes to be the most important. The first one was that stamina was just plain lower. This was a mix of obviously, lower ilevel gear...but the biggest change was that in TBC Stamina was valued at half the points per ilevel that every other stat was. HP took a huge leap in TBC for that very reason. A priest in full t3 (I go with this because I mained a priest) was lucky to have 4000 hp raid buffed. Tanks were amazing if they hit 10k HP. This meant of course that there was little wiggle room for boss abilities. They either hurt a fucking lot or didn't hurt at all. There really was no in between.

The other main change is healers being able to downrank their heals. I lost a lot of my passion for healing when this was removed near the end of TBC. I thought it gave an incredible amount of depth to healing and how to do it in your own way. I healed in a very different way than my raid leader (he was a priest as well) but neither of our assigned tanks really had issues dying. The fact that there wasn't just ONE WAY to do something was always a big draw for me.

Anyway I generally rank boss difficulty on how difficult it was to deal with what they did and how long it took to figure it out. For demonstrative purposes I'll use a relatively simple boss to explain the thought process even with a simple one. 40 man Loatheb was considered completely impossible when guilds first reached him. Everyone basically wiped at about 55-60% until people started to figure out how to go about killing him. Loatheb really only has five abilities that need to be worried about.

So you're engaging Loatheb for the very first time and have to figure out how to kill him. For us at least we noticed the obvious thing immediately. This corrupted mind debuff kinda sucks. Healers could now only cast one healing spell A MINUTE. This concept was hella new and never before seen. The next couple of things fell in this order...First Loatheb doesn't hit very hard. This is really odd for Naxxramas and starts to send off alarms in everyone's head. Second, melee is receiving this really weak ass poison aura. It's obviously melee range only because ranged isn't getting it but it's only doing like 200 damage every 6 seconds. This doesn't make any damn sense whatsoever. By this time Blizzard didn't do shit without a reason in boss fights. The other thing was that Loatheb's health was dropping awfully slowly, so he had a fuck ton of HP. The calculations were already coming out at roughly 5.3mil HP...that's a lot of HP.

Then you see this yellow spiky ball appear to the side. You send a tank and a few people to go kill it because who the hell knows what it does. To the shock of everyone the thing dies in one hit. One DPS notices he got a buff. A few others got the buff but not everyone that went got the buff. The buff is pretty neat, 50% melee crit and 60% spell crit with no threat? Yes please.

So he has a lot of HP but there is this huge damage buff from these spores we can get. Figuring out that there has to be a healing rotation on the tank is an absolute no brainer. So hey, if this is all there is to the fight...we're figuring he enrages in like 5 minutes or something. A tight DPS race sure but nothing too bad.

Then the first Inevitable Doom hits. Nobody has any clue what the hell this does, the tooltip tells us nothing, and its on for ten seconds. Everyone knows it's something bad but WHATEVER lets go.

It hits for 2550 shadow damage. Most everyone is going "WTF?" For the majority of the raid that's at least 50% of their hp. For the healers its closer to 60%. Well healers can't heal this damage back up because they only can cast a heal every minute. Well maybe it only comes out every minute or something.

30 seconds later it comes out again. A wipe promptly occurs.

Most everyone is baffled. Initially we think well maybe we need shadow resistance? The issue with that is that there was no shadow resistance set out there. Frost/Nature/Fire sure..but not shadow. Even then we go through the damage logs and find that nobody resisted any of the shadow damage at all so clearly the damage isn't resistible and resistance is useless for us. Healing potions are on a 3 minute cooldown so it just wont be enough.

So starts the epic wipes. Around wipe 30 or so we finally figure out when the Spores spawn and how many people can acquire it at the same time. Turns out to be 5. This night is over, we spend our free time drawing up a bunch of spreadsheets to figure out the most efficient way to spread out the buff so we get the most out of it. Clearly this fight has to be done quickly because we just can't survive for very long at all.

The next day we wipe a good 10 more times and figure out a DPS rotation we like. By now our healing rotation is comfortable but that inevitable doom nonsense is just an epic road block. We probably wipe another 30-40 times that day trying shit. We try EVERYTHING we can think of, from popping spores onto loatheb to silencing to whatever else we tried. Nothing at all would stop him from casting this shit.

Day 3 comes around and we've finally figured out we just have to deal with the Dooms. They come out every 30 seconds after roughly 2 minutes. So we try a bunch of different Prayer of Healing rotations with Health pots and see where we get.

30 more wipes or so later and we get to minute 5 and boom all of a sudden Dooms come at 15 seconds instead of 30...the fucker is still at like 50% hp because we took away DPS to heal damage... and yea. Hysterical laughter from sorrow ensues.

At some point during our late night drunk induced brainstorming session during Day 4 or so some asshole comes up with using healthstones with greater shadow protection pots and bandages. The reason he was an asshole is because GSPP are notoriously annoying to farm because the materials used for them are really really just annoying to get.

However, we are pretty much reduced to this. We need more dps so dps has to heal themselves with stuff like that. We quickly figure out that GSPP last an hour but the cooldown is only 3 minutes sooo if we use one before a fight then we can use three throughout the course of the fight. We can use different ranks of improved healthstones etc etc.

Back to the drawing board. Spreadsheets are made up AGAIN, this time for people healing their own damage. We wipe terribly as usual until we figure out something that works. BAM all of a sudden we're wiping at 25% instead of 50%. OH DEAR GOD WE'RE MAKING PROGRESS. 10% hits, 5% hits. We hit a minor road block at 5% A lot of lament that maybe we're still doing it wrong (That's possible after all, you don't know for sure without a guide telling you)

Whatever, we muscle on. Squeeze every bit of DPS out we can, even from healers (who actually switched to DPS consumables O.O) and finally the fucker dies. I don't remember what our ranking was but it was satisfying.

This is just from Loatheb. I still have the original spreadsheets for that dumb boss on my old computer. Loatheb is simple on paper. Put something down like 40 man Kel'Thuzard...40 man 4Hm...unnerfed Vashj and my post would be three times as long as this mammoth one already is. The shit was a challenge, a big big challenge.

Once Wrath and Cata came around...it was difficult for Blizzard to come up with new things to surprise people with. Everything by then had in some way been seen before besides some parts of YoggSaron and Lich King (Its not coincidence that those tend to be the most well liked fights in wrath)

My guild was much more fluid and able to see a boss mechanic, figure it out, and know the best way to deal with it in Wrath by an order of magnitude when compared to Vanilla.

So perhaps Cataclysm end boss heroics ARE actually harder than Vanilla but we were just able to figure it out much easier because we knew what to do. I don't really know the answer to that question.

I will never take away from guilds like Paragon, Vodka, Method etc etc that are the current cutting edge. They are all really good guilds and would still be successful in Vanilla/TBC if those bosses were indeed more difficult. However, I believe it was Paragon that said something to the effect that Lich King Heroic was the hardest boss that blizzard ever made...and I just couldn't disagree more. I found Lich King easy as all hell to figure out how to kill, it just came down to pure execution. No late nights trying to calculate shit out, no drunken fun times, nothing like that was required to kill him. I still hold that 40 man Kel'Thuzad was the most difficult boss that blizzard ever made, followed by a toss up between C'thun, 40 4HM, and Hard Mode Yogg Saron.

I'd go into a rant about why I think the achievement system is dog shit but this post is long enough as it is....


Nice post :D I agree that most of the fights back in vanilla pre things like deadly boss mods and tankspot kinda things were non existant etc.

However saying LK heoric was different/easier than Loth 40man is kinda silly to put them together -_-

I mean of course any 40man raid boss is going to dwarf any kind of 25Man Heoric boss, its easier to organise 25 players than 40..However knowing how hard LK 25hc was and not done Loth 40 i cant really comment. But i would say i think LK 40HC would of dwarfed that old naxx raid you did, just because they did actually think long and hard about the LK mechanics and it was deffinatly good fun when you got your guild members to organise themselves properly &_&

BUT what i can categorically agree with you on is, NOTHING beats having a group of mates or even make a group of friends in a guild who go hardcore/semi hardcore @ Raiding and achieve fast good clean kills in all the raids possible. Its the best time ive had on a game too, killing LK before thousands of others on your server is just great!

I havent really raided cata much, but i found the first 4 raids stupidly easy, Cata came out Dec 10 by Feb 11 we had first kills in BWD with ACHIVEMENTS :S and thats with mostly blue gear by our gear because of lack of epics. Was silly really.

But i guess, how do you change bosses so drastically to challenge people who have seen EVERYTHING blizzard has thrown at them.
ModeratorTeam Liquid Football Thread Guru! - Chelsea FC ♥
deepfield1
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States373 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-25 14:27:26
October 25 2011 14:23 GMT
#294
On October 25 2011 22:33 Jayme wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 25 2011 22:28 Jibba wrote:
Jayme, I still say Gothik was the most difficult. If you were on the physical side it was a bit simpler but the CC and DPS execution for mages/priests/warlocks was crazy. More control needed than anything else I've done in WoW.


Gothik is most definitely up there I have to agree. If I had continued that list he would have been mentioned next. That fight was something special.

The reason why I consider KT harder is that even after knowing everything he did and figuring out a good way to deal with it, we still wiped to him over 100 times. The second kill was hell as well.

Gothik on the other hand was pretty much farm status after the first kill. Once you knew when priests had to start shackling, and mages had to start sheeping in order to not overwhelm the Physical side it became clear.

Of course finding out that order was absolute hell. Lol the only other boss that had more Microsoft Excel work done on it was 4HM :p

He was probably my favorite boss fight aside from Kel'thuzad.


Agree about Gothik, it seemed overwhelming at first.. but once you learned the cc / kill orders it was pretty easy.

Going by my guilds wipe #'s... hardest bosses in wow..

1. Muru (un-nerfed)
2. HLK
3. KT
4. 4HM (40m)

To get back on topic. I think the statement about wanting to put Pandarens in the game for along time is complete BS. Why would they make an April Fools joke about something they really wanted to do.. that is just asking for hate. Honestly I really think that is what ruined it for me..


thoradycus
Profile Joined August 2010
Malaysia3262 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-25 14:50:57
October 25 2011 14:50 GMT
#295
edit
thoradycus
Profile Joined August 2010
Malaysia3262 Posts
October 25 2011 14:56 GMT
#296
On October 25 2011 21:22 Velr wrote:
I actually liked Cata for the leveling and the "fresh" heroics/raiding.. But it became a stupid grind quickly after and i stopped again ^^.



What WoW should do to "become good" again for me:

Stop recylcing:
No Heroic modes, at least not in the natural "tier/raiding" progression.
No "nostalgic/classic" instances, or at least TRUE makeovers with different architecture and everything (The CoT instances in TBC did this good... ) and not just some different Mobs.

Stop giving gear for pure grinds:
No epics for "faction" or at least WAY less..
No epics for "points from finished heroics" or at least WAY less...
Instead:
"Smart" Drops from Bosses... It's annoying when after 10 weeks still no Pala/Priest/WL has his shoulders while our Shamans are full epic in all their speccs... Smart Drops EVERYWHERE.. 5 mans, 10 mans, 25 mans...

Remove flying mounts:
World PvP/Ganking was fun. Actually it was the only PvP that truly was fun... Bring it back .

Remove instance teleporting / auto-grouping...:
I don't care if it's annoying to walk to an instance entrance, it just belonged to the experience.
I don't care for people that are to retarded to get a big friend list. Most likely they got no friends to to instances with because they are fucking terrible and destroy the experience for everyone else.



Well, one can dream :D.



ill never forget the times i have to take like 15 minutes to go to some instance in another continent lol <3
Wargable
Profile Joined April 2011
United States107 Posts
October 25 2011 15:20 GMT
#297
I love how the majority of the posts are all disappointed with the upcoming expansion. I wonder if Blizzard will actually make many changes before it comes out. I really hope so.
"That brings my piss to a boil."
deth2munkies
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States4051 Posts
October 25 2011 15:33 GMT
#298
It just seems to me that Blizzard has forgotten the difference between making things "accessible" and making things "easy". It used to be that they would do things like fix rough parts of the interface or clarify overly obtuse things. I wasn't even averse to them adding stuff like better quest markers on the map and stuff because everyone used Carbonite or the like anyway.

Then they started nerfing raid content beyond all belief once the new tier came out.

Then they added in just plain easier modes of getting gear.

Then they made 5 man non-heroics an absolute fucking joke even when you first reach them.

Does anyone remember when it was still difficult to get a bunch of people who hadn't been around very long to go through MC, even several years after it had been cleared? Remember when having epic gear actually meant you'd done something awesome instead of just PvPing 10 times a week or grinding piss-easy heroics? Remember when you first got to Arcatraz non-heroic and got utterly raped 6 times before you figured out the invisible succubi, huge eredar, and that one bridge with the sentinels?

I'll tell you exactly when I decided to never come back:

I had won free game time and the Cataclysm expansion from a contest I forgot I entered, so I came back to the game after a year off. I joined a midrange raiding guild (good people, casual schedule) and downed all the fights but Nefarian in a month or two. Our raiding group got hit by a bunch of people quitting and I eventually rerolled to see what Alliance was like. I made a priest, joined a random guild, then started forming PuG raids once I hit max level. We would usually get 1-2 bosses in every dungeon a week and call it time. Eventually, we had a stable group of people going and began progressing. We got 4/6, 1/2, and 2/4 down before the nerfs hit. The next raid we went on, we made every newbie mistake in the book, nobody was playing well, nobody was doing their best healing/tanking/dps at all. We still cleared all 3 dungeons...in 2 attempts.

I could never, ever play a game that was that unfun again. There is no challenge left. When your normal mode dungeon is downed within 6 hours of the raid's release and heroic follows a week or so later, you've lost that special something.
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10686 Posts
October 25 2011 15:35 GMT
#299
The thing is Blizzard had the "perfect" Expansion when it came to Atmosphere with Wrath... Sadly they faild at nearly everything else in it...

So i wouldn't bring my hopes up ^^
Engore
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States1916 Posts
October 25 2011 16:29 GMT
#300
I thought it was troll at first. My brother comes up and says "ya its panda expansion" i'm just like NAHHHH you troll in me dawg! But ya.. I think after a year + break I'll come back long enough to at least play monk as panda to 90 and see the new areas and stuff. Then quit again :o

EG | Liquid | Dignitas | FXO | SlayerS | TSL | iS | Fan of pretty much all players ^_^ | SeleCT <3 forever! Axslav <3
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