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On April 20 2013 01:41 Novalisk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 01:26 Sn0_Man wrote:That keystone idea is pretty bad. I mean, one of ES's biggest strengths is the speed it regenerates. Who needs flasks for that? Plus flasks stop scaling after level 53 anyways...  You can't use ES mid-combat, that's why it isn't viable for tanking if you don't get Ghost Reaver. But if you do get Ghost Reaver, you pretty much have to go full ES. Potions stop scaling yeah, that's what prevents this keystone from being OP since it doubles potion effectiveness.
The way ES or Life scales it is only viable to go all or nothing anyway. Splitting your passives between life and ES is inefficient and therefore not viable.
On April 20 2013 01:48 Sn0_Man wrote:
I believe you can get the ES cooldown to 0 via the passive skill tree (105% total possible cooldown reduction).
Doubling flask regen still isn't good really.
That isn't how it works. You only halve the cooldown at 100% and it is impossible for it to reach zero.
The formula for the recharge delay is:
6 * (100 / (100 + increased recovery) )
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A few of the ES/Armor and ES/Evasion nodes are decent (nullification, etc). Problem is that ES Hybrid gear usually has both terrible ES and terrible armor/evasion, so 
EDIT: oh okay.
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Having zero recovery ES would be really broken :p
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On April 20 2013 01:53 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 01:41 Novalisk wrote:On April 20 2013 01:26 Sn0_Man wrote:That keystone idea is pretty bad. I mean, one of ES's biggest strengths is the speed it regenerates. Who needs flasks for that? Plus flasks stop scaling after level 53 anyways... You can't use ES mid-combat, that's why it isn't viable for tanking if you don't get Ghost Reaver. But if you do get Ghost Reaver, you pretty much have to go full ES. Potions stop scaling yeah, that's what prevents this keystone from being OP since it doubles potion effectiveness. The way ES or Life scales it is only viable to go all or nothing anyway. Splitting your passives between life and ES is inefficient and therefore not viable.
This just isn't true at all seeing as gear can have both ES and Life.
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On April 20 2013 02:21 Novalisk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 01:53 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On April 20 2013 01:41 Novalisk wrote:On April 20 2013 01:26 Sn0_Man wrote:That keystone idea is pretty bad. I mean, one of ES's biggest strengths is the speed it regenerates. Who needs flasks for that? Plus flasks stop scaling after level 53 anyways... You can't use ES mid-combat, that's why it isn't viable for tanking if you don't get Ghost Reaver. But if you do get Ghost Reaver, you pretty much have to go full ES. Potions stop scaling yeah, that's what prevents this keystone from being OP since it doubles potion effectiveness. The way ES or Life scales it is only viable to go all or nothing anyway. Splitting your passives between life and ES is inefficient and therefore not viable. This just isn't true at all seeing as gear can have both ES and Life.
He wasn't talking gear, only passives. The problem is that to get 200% life AND 200% ES means that you have basically spent your entire skill tree right there. And you are going to have very poor armor anyway due to the fact that you need ES and Life on gear, which means the armor/evasion ratings are going to be at best half of what they could be.
So while you could probably get to 4K life 4K ES, you would lack a lot of damage mitigation and you would be overly stressing your skill tree without being seriously more survivable than a pure life or ES version.
Plus you are hyper-vulnerable to Chaos dmg. Flasks just don't factor in at this point.
EDIT: hmm its not quite as hard as I thought to get 200/200. ~75 points from templar. Still doesn't seem that good.
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On April 20 2013 02:27 Sn0_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 02:21 Novalisk wrote:On April 20 2013 01:53 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On April 20 2013 01:41 Novalisk wrote:On April 20 2013 01:26 Sn0_Man wrote:That keystone idea is pretty bad. I mean, one of ES's biggest strengths is the speed it regenerates. Who needs flasks for that? Plus flasks stop scaling after level 53 anyways... You can't use ES mid-combat, that's why it isn't viable for tanking if you don't get Ghost Reaver. But if you do get Ghost Reaver, you pretty much have to go full ES. Potions stop scaling yeah, that's what prevents this keystone from being OP since it doubles potion effectiveness. The way ES or Life scales it is only viable to go all or nothing anyway. Splitting your passives between life and ES is inefficient and therefore not viable. This just isn't true at all seeing as gear can have both ES and Life. He wasn't talking gear, only passives. The problem is that to get 200% life AND 200% ES...
Gonna have to stop you there.
Most end-game builds get 200% in either life or ES. If you could get either ES or Life on gear, then your 200% life AND 200% ES analogy is correct. But truth is that gear can have both. Sure you'll be sacrificing on other stuff, but that's what builds (and this keystone) are about.
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On April 20 2013 02:32 Novalisk wrote:
Gonna have to stop you there.
Most end-game builds get 200% in either life or ES
Oh you are from softcore.
JK do whatever you want.
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On April 20 2013 02:21 Novalisk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 01:53 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On April 20 2013 01:41 Novalisk wrote:On April 20 2013 01:26 Sn0_Man wrote:That keystone idea is pretty bad. I mean, one of ES's biggest strengths is the speed it regenerates. Who needs flasks for that? Plus flasks stop scaling after level 53 anyways... You can't use ES mid-combat, that's why it isn't viable for tanking if you don't get Ghost Reaver. But if you do get Ghost Reaver, you pretty much have to go full ES. Potions stop scaling yeah, that's what prevents this keystone from being OP since it doubles potion effectiveness. The way ES or Life scales it is only viable to go all or nothing anyway. Splitting your passives between life and ES is inefficient and therefore not viable. This just isn't true at all seeing as gear can have both ES and Life.
The life and ES mods are all prefixes so they actually are mutually exclusive. You can't get a very high ES piece and have the life mod as there are three ES prefixes that are key to having a good ES piece. Sacrificing one of them for a life roll is inefficient considering you're going to spend additional passive points to get it and it may not even be a net gain in your overall pool (I hesitate to make a 1:1 comparison here because I don't believe 1 life=1ES).
I was talking passives though. I have seen one build that devotes its entire passive tree to defense in the form of life nodes that utilized EK. You could probably do a hybrid variant of this, but it would be inferior.
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On April 20 2013 02:46 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 02:21 Novalisk wrote:On April 20 2013 01:53 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On April 20 2013 01:41 Novalisk wrote:On April 20 2013 01:26 Sn0_Man wrote:That keystone idea is pretty bad. I mean, one of ES's biggest strengths is the speed it regenerates. Who needs flasks for that? Plus flasks stop scaling after level 53 anyways... You can't use ES mid-combat, that's why it isn't viable for tanking if you don't get Ghost Reaver. But if you do get Ghost Reaver, you pretty much have to go full ES. Potions stop scaling yeah, that's what prevents this keystone from being OP since it doubles potion effectiveness. The way ES or Life scales it is only viable to go all or nothing anyway. Splitting your passives between life and ES is inefficient and therefore not viable. This just isn't true at all seeing as gear can have both ES and Life. The life and ES mods are all prefixes so they actually are mutually exclusive. You can't get a very high ES piece and have the life mod as there are three ES prefixes that are key to having a good ES piece. Sacrificing one of them for a life roll is inefficient considering you're going to spend additional passive points to get it and it may not even be a net gain in your overall pool
That's where the keystone comes in. You can't get all 4 prefixes at once on a single piece, so the keystone makes up for it. Additionally, you aren't limiting yourself to gear choices which is a definite plus.
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On April 20 2013 03:03 Novalisk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 02:46 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On April 20 2013 02:21 Novalisk wrote:On April 20 2013 01:53 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On April 20 2013 01:41 Novalisk wrote:On April 20 2013 01:26 Sn0_Man wrote:That keystone idea is pretty bad. I mean, one of ES's biggest strengths is the speed it regenerates. Who needs flasks for that? Plus flasks stop scaling after level 53 anyways... You can't use ES mid-combat, that's why it isn't viable for tanking if you don't get Ghost Reaver. But if you do get Ghost Reaver, you pretty much have to go full ES. Potions stop scaling yeah, that's what prevents this keystone from being OP since it doubles potion effectiveness. The way ES or Life scales it is only viable to go all or nothing anyway. Splitting your passives between life and ES is inefficient and therefore not viable. This just isn't true at all seeing as gear can have both ES and Life. The life and ES mods are all prefixes so they actually are mutually exclusive. You can't get a very high ES piece and have the life mod as there are three ES prefixes that are key to having a good ES piece. Sacrificing one of them for a life roll is inefficient considering you're going to spend additional passive points to get it and it may not even be a net gain in your overall pool That's where the keystone comes in. You can't get all 4 prefixes at once on a single piece, so the keystone makes up for it. Additionally, you aren't limiting yourself to gear choices which is a definite plus.
The keystone doesn't make up for it at all. Trading life leech for double flask effect is utter nonsense. The fact that it is inferior should tell you that there shouldn't be any additional huge negatives to the passive.
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On April 20 2013 03:21 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 03:03 Novalisk wrote:On April 20 2013 02:46 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On April 20 2013 02:21 Novalisk wrote:On April 20 2013 01:53 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On April 20 2013 01:41 Novalisk wrote:On April 20 2013 01:26 Sn0_Man wrote:That keystone idea is pretty bad. I mean, one of ES's biggest strengths is the speed it regenerates. Who needs flasks for that? Plus flasks stop scaling after level 53 anyways... You can't use ES mid-combat, that's why it isn't viable for tanking if you don't get Ghost Reaver. But if you do get Ghost Reaver, you pretty much have to go full ES. Potions stop scaling yeah, that's what prevents this keystone from being OP since it doubles potion effectiveness. The way ES or Life scales it is only viable to go all or nothing anyway. Splitting your passives between life and ES is inefficient and therefore not viable. This just isn't true at all seeing as gear can have both ES and Life. The life and ES mods are all prefixes so they actually are mutually exclusive. You can't get a very high ES piece and have the life mod as there are three ES prefixes that are key to having a good ES piece. Sacrificing one of them for a life roll is inefficient considering you're going to spend additional passive points to get it and it may not even be a net gain in your overall pool That's where the keystone comes in. You can't get all 4 prefixes at once on a single piece, so the keystone makes up for it. Additionally, you aren't limiting yourself to gear choices which is a definite plus. The keystone doesn't make up for it at all. Trading life leech for double flask effect is utter nonsense. The fact that it is inferior should tell you that there shouldn't be any additional huge negatives to the passive.
Not having to use a life leech gem is a a big relief for me. It is quite worth it honestly, if your gear has both ES and Life (which RNG allows).
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I'm just gonna drop this because your arguments have zero logic or reason. If you don't see why it is inferior and worthless then I'm done trying to convince you. If you want to defend your build with numbers or actual logic then feel free to continue.
Even with your shitty health pool you can life leech over 800health/second assuming you have the damage. That is a lot more than a flask is gonna get you even with your passive. With a proper build you can get a whole lot more than that though obviously. For reference my Sapping flask heals about 230/health/second and even doubling that it wouldn't come close to life leech and your life leech is heavily gimped because of your poor life pool.
Flasks in end game are about oh shit moments rather than recovery. Your gear should be sustaining you at that point. Typically you'll carry around instant flasks, granite, quicksilver, and resist. The heal over time flasks are for low levels before you have actual regen.
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On April 20 2013 03:36 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
I'm just gonna drop this because your arguments have zero logic or reason. If you don't see why it is inferior and worthless then I'm done trying to convince you. If you want to defend your build with numbers or actual logic then feel free to continue.
Even with your shitty health pool you can life leech over 800health/second assuming you have the damage. That is a lot more than a flask is gonna get you even with your passive. With a proper build you can get a whole lot more than that though obviously. For reference my Sapping flask heals about 230/health/second and even doubling that it wouldn't come close to life leech and your life leech if heavily gimped because of your poor life pool.
Flasks in end game are about oh shit moments rather than recovery. Your gear should be sustaining you at that point. Typically you'll carry around instant flasks, granite, quicksilver, and resist. The heal over time flasks are for low levels before you have actual regen.
Good flasks are 150 health/second. With this passive they'd be 300 health/second which isn't bad at all considering you're saving a gem slot. If you still think you need survivability, you can get a Life Gain on Hit gem.
Also, no idea why you got so hateful all of a sudden.
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Because I feel like you're trolling me. You can't honestly believe that is a replacement for life leech.
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On April 20 2013 04:00 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
Because I feel like you're trolling me. You can't honestly believe that is a replacement for life leech.
You can choose between more damage, or a life gain on hit gem if you really want the extra survivability, so it evens out.
Having both ES and Life means your HP pool isn't "shit" at all, on the contrary it is quite high.
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On April 20 2013 04:09 Novalisk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 04:00 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
Because I feel like you're trolling me. You can't honestly believe that is a replacement for life leech. You can choose between more damage, or a life gain on hit gem if you really want the extra survivability, so it evens out. Having both ES and Life means your HP pool isn't "shit" at all, on the contrary it is quite high.
Life leech is based on your health pool. You can leech 20% of your life pool per second. This along with things like stun and status effect times being based on your health pool along with a multitude of other mechanics means that you can't simply add your ES to your life pool and say it's the same thing. This is why I said that you can't compare life to ES 1:1. They aren't the same thing and shouldn't be treated as such. Having eight thousand life is superior to having four thousand life and four thousand ES except in the way that ES recovers. This mechanic is only useful if you purely stack ES though.
This will be my last post in reply to this though. If you believe the shit you're spewing out I'm just gonna ignore you. I suggest you read through the mechanics thread and play some end game before you start making suggestions about the game in the future.
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On April 20 2013 04:15 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2013 04:09 Novalisk wrote:On April 20 2013 04:00 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
Because I feel like you're trolling me. You can't honestly believe that is a replacement for life leech. You can choose between more damage, or a life gain on hit gem if you really want the extra survivability, so it evens out. Having both ES and Life means your HP pool isn't "shit" at all, on the contrary it is quite high. Life leech is based on your health pool. You can leech 20% of your life pool per second. This along with things like stun and status effect times being based on your health pool along with a multitude of other mechanics means that you can't simply add your ES to your life pool and say it's the same thing. This is why I said that you can't compare life to ES 1:1. They aren't the same thing and shouldn't be treated as such. Having eight thousand life is superior to having four thousand life and four thousand ES except in the way that ES recovers. This mechanic is only useful if you purely stack ES though. This will be my last post in reply to this though. If you believe the shit you're spewing out I'm just gonna ignore you. I suggest you read through the mechanics thread and play some end game before you start making suggestions about the game in the future.
I know all about those mechanics. And good luck getting 8K HP without a Kaom's.
Ignore away.
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Anyone interested in starting the 1 week race with me?
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holy wow
ranger/witch so much easier to play than templar (and maybe other melees).
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On April 20 2013 09:15 ticklishmusic wrote:
holy wow
ranger/witch so much easier to play than templar (and maybe other melees).
You don't have to play templar as a melee.
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EPT
