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Kerbal Space Program - Page 9

Forum Index > General Games
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fishbowl
Profile Joined January 2010
United States1575 Posts
February 05 2014 13:01 GMT
#161
For the most part, I only use Kerbal Engineer to know deltaV on any rockets I make and Protractor to calculate interplanetary rendezvous angles.
felisconcolori
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States6168 Posts
February 05 2014 20:15 GMT
#162
I currently only have Kerbal Alarm Clock (helps me nail down transfer windows, prevents over warping when I'm smart enough to use it) and MechJeb 2.0 (mostly for the dV stats and orbital/ship/surface info windows; I won't lie, I've used it to set up and execute Hohmann transfers, velocity matching, and planetary transitions as well but I'm not limping along with it like I once did). I've only been playing Career since it came out, with occasional testing in sandbox. I've considered Ferram's Joint Reinforcement because of the annoying habit of ships getting a massive jolt on loading and dropping tanks/engines without copious strutting and editor extensions because setting up precise angles is a pain.

I should really get enhanced nav ball, too. What I really want, and what doesn't seem to exist, is a mod that adds at least minimal instrumentation for planes/space planes so that I can have better guidance for vectoring in a landing at the KSC runway. Although I'm getting better at guessing where on Kerbin KSC is or how far it is for me to get there, I wouldn't mind something that implements an electronic "Jeppeson" chart for KSC and maybe a PAPI or extended runway landing lights. (Currently, I'm trying to figure out if I can use flags for that purpose, if I can make sure I can plant them on the extended center line of the runway.)

Ah well. Back to my quest to launch an SSTO space plane that can bring an entire, untouched orange fuel tank into LKO without breaking apart. Currently, it won't even get off the ground - but my first prototype planes have managed orbit with some airhogging.
Yes, I email sponsors... to thank them. Don't post drunk, kids. My king, what has become of you?
Blazinghand *
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States25560 Posts
February 05 2014 20:21 GMT
#163
I can't make an SSTO space plane that just brings ITSELF into LKO and back down again. Bringing one of those big orange fuel tanks up without using extra tanks/engines and jettisoning them sounds really hard. what do you do?
When you stare into the iCCup, the iCCup stares back.
TL+ Member
Chocolate
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2350 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-05 20:32:29
February 05 2014 20:32 GMT
#164
I have never used any mods but I'm running into a brick wall when it comes to landing ships on other planets and moons outside of kerbin, mun, and minmus. I guess I'm going to start having to do calculations myself or something, lol. I made it to Duna once, but I ran out of fuel.

BTW, I haven't looked too much into this yet, but how hard is it to build spacecraft in orbit?
felisconcolori
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States6168 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-05 20:43:22
February 05 2014 20:39 GMT
#165
On February 06 2014 05:21 Blazinghand wrote:
I can't make an SSTO space plane that just brings ITSELF into LKO and back down again. Bringing one of those big orange fuel tanks up without using extra tanks/engines and jettisoning them sounds really hard. what do you do?


Well, I may actually get off my metaphorical ass and dig out some headphones so I can run a "quality" stream with some form of interaction later tonight or tomorrow in which case you could watch me flailing, but here's the trick as I understand it:

As many intakes as you can with as few engines as you can get away with and enough lift to get off the ground. There are... ways... of mounting more intakes than you would think is possible. (My orbit capable space plane has 25 ram intakes for 2 turbojet engines. My second revision, not shown, uses 24 intakes as the front one is swapped for a shielded docking port.)
Pics:
+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]
[image loading]
[image loading]


There's two small fuel tanks with rocket engines on them for the final circularization burn and space maneuvers as well as some RCS. Also, lots of inline stabilizers and that thing moves with authoritah.

So the sequence is like this - activate turbojets and throttle up (with SCS on), take off, and climb out at about 30 degrees angle of attack. Watch intake air like a hawk once altitude tops 15km. Level out to about 5 degrees above 20km altitude, continue monitoring intake air while speed (and altitude) continues to build. Keep on keeping on, throttling down if necessary as intake air drops to 0.1. The way the turbojets are set up, it will not flat spin if one flames out, but by the time it hits that altitude it should already be going pretty damn near orbital speed and around 40km altitude. (The red bow-wave is pretty.) Watch my apoapsis rise as speed rises, until it gets outside of atmosphere. To continue building speed, I may need to switch over to the rocket motors (I use action groups which toggle the engines on or off) but only at a low thrust. I'm kinda already in an orbit at that point, although the apoapsis is ~100km and the periapsis is ~30km. I try to not use any engines in the atmosphere, and set up a circularization burn at apoapsis to circularize the orbit. The model pictured can get to orbit with around 900 dV left - not good for much but crew transfers, and not even that since it has a crew of 1. It is however the first plane I've put into a stable orbit, so I was pretty excited.

+ Show Spoiler +
Not pictured is the landing - which was a spectacular failure because I'm horrible at landing. Many boom, but German Kerman survived okay.


I'm kindof fond of biplane designs although I've made some planes that are large glider-type aircraft, and one oddity that breaks physics but is not quite infiniglide.

On February 06 2014 05:32 Chocolate wrote:
I have never used any mods but I'm running into a brick wall when it comes to landing ships on other planets and moons outside of kerbin, mun, and minmus. I guess I'm going to start having to do calculations myself or something, lol. I made it to Duna once, but I ran out of fuel.

BTW, I haven't looked too much into this yet, but how hard is it to build spacecraft in orbit?


Not incredibly difficult, but you have to use docking ports which can create some issues. (Or, there are mods.) It's all fun and games until you apply thrust and watch your baby shake itself to pieces and create a giant debris field in orbit. That said, I've got a ship orbiting Duna after a landing on Ike waiting for its return window, and I've dropped a rover on Eve. Something like Kerbal Engineer Redux or MechJeb are useful for getting delta V information although of course MechJeb can do a lot more, and some purists hate it. My take is, if it's okay for Scott Manley, it's okay with me.
Yes, I email sponsors... to thank them. Don't post drunk, kids. My king, what has become of you?
Millitron
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States2611 Posts
February 06 2014 04:41 GMT
#166
On February 06 2014 05:39 felisconcolori wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 06 2014 05:21 Blazinghand wrote:
I can't make an SSTO space plane that just brings ITSELF into LKO and back down again. Bringing one of those big orange fuel tanks up without using extra tanks/engines and jettisoning them sounds really hard. what do you do?


Well, I may actually get off my metaphorical ass and dig out some headphones so I can run a "quality" stream with some form of interaction later tonight or tomorrow in which case you could watch me flailing, but here's the trick as I understand it:

As many intakes as you can with as few engines as you can get away with and enough lift to get off the ground. There are... ways... of mounting more intakes than you would think is possible. (My orbit capable space plane has 25 ram intakes for 2 turbojet engines. My second revision, not shown, uses 24 intakes as the front one is swapped for a shielded docking port.)
Pics:
+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]
[image loading]
[image loading]


There's two small fuel tanks with rocket engines on them for the final circularization burn and space maneuvers as well as some RCS. Also, lots of inline stabilizers and that thing moves with authoritah.

So the sequence is like this - activate turbojets and throttle up (with SCS on), take off, and climb out at about 30 degrees angle of attack. Watch intake air like a hawk once altitude tops 15km. Level out to about 5 degrees above 20km altitude, continue monitoring intake air while speed (and altitude) continues to build. Keep on keeping on, throttling down if necessary as intake air drops to 0.1. The way the turbojets are set up, it will not flat spin if one flames out, but by the time it hits that altitude it should already be going pretty damn near orbital speed and around 40km altitude. (The red bow-wave is pretty.) Watch my apoapsis rise as speed rises, until it gets outside of atmosphere. To continue building speed, I may need to switch over to the rocket motors (I use action groups which toggle the engines on or off) but only at a low thrust. I'm kinda already in an orbit at that point, although the apoapsis is ~100km and the periapsis is ~30km. I try to not use any engines in the atmosphere, and set up a circularization burn at apoapsis to circularize the orbit. The model pictured can get to orbit with around 900 dV left - not good for much but crew transfers, and not even that since it has a crew of 1. It is however the first plane I've put into a stable orbit, so I was pretty excited.

+ Show Spoiler +
Not pictured is the landing - which was a spectacular failure because I'm horrible at landing. Many boom, but German Kerman survived okay.


I'm kindof fond of biplane designs although I've made some planes that are large glider-type aircraft, and one oddity that breaks physics but is not quite infiniglide.

Show nested quote +
On February 06 2014 05:32 Chocolate wrote:
I have never used any mods but I'm running into a brick wall when it comes to landing ships on other planets and moons outside of kerbin, mun, and minmus. I guess I'm going to start having to do calculations myself or something, lol. I made it to Duna once, but I ran out of fuel.

BTW, I haven't looked too much into this yet, but how hard is it to build spacecraft in orbit?


Not incredibly difficult, but you have to use docking ports which can create some issues. (Or, there are mods.) It's all fun and games until you apply thrust and watch your baby shake itself to pieces and create a giant debris field in orbit. That said, I've got a ship orbiting Duna after a landing on Ike waiting for its return window, and I've dropped a rover on Eve. Something like Kerbal Engineer Redux or MechJeb are useful for getting delta V information although of course MechJeb can do a lot more, and some purists hate it. My take is, if it's okay for Scott Manley, it's okay with me.

When you're building in space, if you mount the engine module at the front of the vessel in a puller configuration, you'll get much less wobbling, as the joints will be under tension not compression.
Who called in the fleet?
Epoxide
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Magic Woods9326 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-16 22:00:46
February 16 2014 21:59 GMT
#167
Unfinished station around Kerbin with a VTOL Shuttle attached:

+ Show Spoiler +
&#91;image loading&#93;
LiquipediaSouma: EU MM is just Russian Roulette. Literally.
felisconcolori
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States6168 Posts
February 16 2014 22:10 GMT
#168
Nice station. SSTO with no rapiers/jets? Pretty cool.

Reminds me, I really need to get off my butt and get going with my Jool-5 mission. (Hit Jool, land on all moons, one mission.) I need that sweet sweet science.
Yes, I email sponsors... to thank them. Don't post drunk, kids. My king, what has become of you?
Epoxide
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Magic Woods9326 Posts
February 16 2014 22:21 GMT
#169
On February 17 2014 07:10 felisconcolori wrote:
Nice station. SSTO with no rapiers/jets? Pretty cool.

Reminds me, I really need to get off my butt and get going with my Jool-5 mission. (Hit Jool, land on all moons, one mission.) I need that sweet sweet science.

Unfortunately it's not SSTO, I can't get the design I want working with SSTO because of no Oxidizer in the mk3/adapters fuselages
LiquipediaSouma: EU MM is just Russian Roulette. Literally.
felisconcolori
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States6168 Posts
February 17 2014 19:19 GMT
#170
On February 17 2014 07:21 Epoxide wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2014 07:10 felisconcolori wrote:
Nice station. SSTO with no rapiers/jets? Pretty cool.

Reminds me, I really need to get off my butt and get going with my Jool-5 mission. (Hit Jool, land on all moons, one mission.) I need that sweet sweet science.

Unfortunately it's not SSTO, I can't get the design I want working with SSTO because of no Oxidizer in the mk3/adapters fuselages


Hmm. I've got one SSTO currently (well, I've been working on another one but orange tanks are heavy as hell) that can make orbit, but without using rapier engines. It has two turbojets, a whole slew of questionably placed ramjet intakes, and two rockets. The rockets have their own fuel, as does the jets - just mark 1 fuselage sections.

I think that's one way to go - have jet fuel tanks for the jet stages, then some rocket tanks to provide the liquid fuel and oxidizer for the rocket burns. (You can get to very nearly orbit with just jets, but it's tough and requires massive air hogging. Still need plain rockets for the circularization burn.)

I need to try again now that I've unlocked rapiers.
Yes, I email sponsors... to thank them. Don't post drunk, kids. My king, what has become of you?
Epoxide
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Magic Woods9326 Posts
February 17 2014 20:26 GMT
#171
On February 18 2014 04:19 felisconcolori wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2014 07:21 Epoxide wrote:
On February 17 2014 07:10 felisconcolori wrote:
Nice station. SSTO with no rapiers/jets? Pretty cool.

Reminds me, I really need to get off my butt and get going with my Jool-5 mission. (Hit Jool, land on all moons, one mission.) I need that sweet sweet science.

Unfortunately it's not SSTO, I can't get the design I want working with SSTO because of no Oxidizer in the mk3/adapters fuselages


Hmm. I've got one SSTO currently (well, I've been working on another one but orange tanks are heavy as hell) that can make orbit, but without using rapier engines. It has two turbojets, a whole slew of questionably placed ramjet intakes, and two rockets. The rockets have their own fuel, as does the jets - just mark 1 fuselage sections.

I think that's one way to go - have jet fuel tanks for the jet stages, then some rocket tanks to provide the liquid fuel and oxidizer for the rocket burns. (You can get to very nearly orbit with just jets, but it's tough and requires massive air hogging. Still need plain rockets for the circularization burn.)

I need to try again now that I've unlocked rapiers.

That's the thing, I don't want to spam ram intakes
It works fine as SSTO on most moons/Duna/Moho/Dres/Eeloo
LiquipediaSouma: EU MM is just Russian Roulette. Literally.
felisconcolori
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States6168 Posts
February 17 2014 20:40 GMT
#172
I have yet to get a space to any other body, but it's something I'm looking at trying. (Eve is a royal pain to land and return from, something I think I might be able to handle with judicious use of wings..)

I don't know... 12 intakes for an engine isn't spam, is it? It can be done with fewer, it's just that the transition around 20km gets to be finicky.
Yes, I email sponsors... to thank them. Don't post drunk, kids. My king, what has become of you?
nimbim
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Germany985 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-18 05:50:14
February 18 2014 05:49 GMT
#173
SSTO make sense on Kerbin because turbojets are so efficient (especially in combination with stacked intakes). Adding wings on Eve will sadly only increase your drag and there is no oxygen for turbojets.
felisconcolori
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States6168 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-18 20:08:22
February 18 2014 20:08 GMT
#174
On February 18 2014 14:49 nimbim wrote:
SSTO make sense on Kerbin because turbojets are so efficient (especially in combination with stacked intakes). Adding wings on Eve will sadly only increase your drag and there is no oxygen for turbojets.


What, wings don't provide lift on Eve? (Most non-Kerbin aircraft seem to be rocket planes, from what I've seen.)
Yes, I email sponsors... to thank them. Don't post drunk, kids. My king, what has become of you?
nimbim
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Germany985 Posts
February 18 2014 21:07 GMT
#175
Wings provide lift, it's just that you want to achieve orbit from the surface. You have to fly through all of the super thick atmosphere for a long time and having wings wont help you there. Your gravity turn should happen very late (40km+++) and all that time your wings have just increased your drag. When you finally get to benefit from lift, you are in thin atmosphere where the lift from your wings is negligible anyway.
felisconcolori
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States6168 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-18 22:25:12
February 18 2014 22:04 GMT
#176
Huh. Well, considering I'm working on lifting 368 tons to orbit lately, I might not have the most efficient designs in mind. (The lifter, which gets it to orbit, is currently weighing in at 3,684 tons. And it's 660 parts total right now, but it needs more struts - if it sits on the pad more than a few seconds before launch, parts fall off.)

After enough tape to let it sit on the pad and not self-destruct:

+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]


I still need to tweak the mothership stage, though. (That's the payload.)
Yes, I email sponsors... to thank them. Don't post drunk, kids. My king, what has become of you?
nimbim
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Germany985 Posts
February 19 2014 00:00 GMT
#177
Looks a like a lot of effort, nice. If you need more struts, you may be interested in downloading KW Rocketry. It contains 2 extra strong struts, they can help a lot with reducing the part count. You can simply not install all the other parts if you don't want them.

Initially I tried going bigger and bigger too. However, I feel that docking many small parts is a lot quicker most of the time, since there is no lag at launch and construction time is cut short by a lot. Even an Eve lander, which I first thought absolutely needs a giant launch vehicle, can be launched directly from Kerbin since you need a lot more delta v for Eve and dock with a booster in LKO.

I also think it's a more realistic idea to assemble a big ship in orbit.
+ Show Spoiler [pics] +
[image loading]
[image loading]

felisconcolori
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States6168 Posts
February 19 2014 00:38 GMT
#178
I agree that orbital assembly is more than likely the better route - I haven't been all that great at past efforts (primarily because of docking alignment issues and poor design) and it is something I plan on pursuing.

That behemoth is a mothership core I'm building to take five separate landers to the Jool system - the landers are launching separately and docking prior to the trip. Part of the problem of such a large ship, of course, is that because it's so large, it needs more fuel and engines to burn reasonably - something I could no doubt avoid with a more streamlined ship assembled in orbit.

On the other hand, even with 20 nuclear engines, the 5 full orange tanks provide nearly 11,000 dV in orbit, without taking into account any of the landers which will be much more reasonable.
Yes, I email sponsors... to thank them. Don't post drunk, kids. My king, what has become of you?
FromShouri
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
United States862 Posts
February 19 2014 05:22 GMT
#179
I am glad I found this thread because even though there is no combat I still like the minecrafty build up over time feel. Right now I have just the demo till I get paid, but is it always normally easier to orbit the sun then the Earth? I seem to always over-build rockets and overshoot a lot. I also haven't completely understood the maneuver system but I have created a rocket that will perfectly shoot me into the suns orbit and its pretty cool just having 2 dudes randomly shoot around lol.
Limited Edition, lets do some simple addition, $50 for a T-Shirt is just some ignorant bitch shit.
Epoxide
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Magic Woods9326 Posts
February 19 2014 05:34 GMT
#180
On February 19 2014 14:22 FromShouri wrote:
I am glad I found this thread because even though there is no combat I still like the minecrafty build up over time feel. Right now I have just the demo till I get paid, but is it always normally easier to orbit the sun then the Earth? I seem to always over-build rockets and overshoot a lot. I also haven't completely understood the maneuver system but I have created a rocket that will perfectly shoot me into the suns orbit and its pretty cool just having 2 dudes randomly shoot around lol.

I felt that the whole game opened up a lot more when I learned maneuver nodes and how to set up encounters. Right now you are just burning max into prograde I assume ?
LiquipediaSouma: EU MM is just Russian Roulette. Literally.
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