On February 19 2014 14:22 FromShouri wrote: I am glad I found this thread because even though there is no combat I still like the minecrafty build up over time feel. Right now I have just the demo till I get paid, but is it always normally easier to orbit the sun then the Earth? I seem to always over-build rockets and overshoot a lot. I also haven't completely understood the maneuver system but I have created a rocket that will perfectly shoot me into the suns orbit and its pretty cool just having 2 dudes randomly shoot around lol.
I felt that the whole game opened up a lot more when I learned maneuver nodes and how to set up encounters. Right now you are just burning max into prograde I assume ?
indeed, I have a 6 engine bottom part that I use to get to ~10,000 meters, then I engage a 5 rocket that takes me into my prograde.
The trick is to know when to stop burning - although that can depend on what parts you have available. (Solid boosters, man. Gotta be careful, you can't control their wild and free lifestyle.)
Now is the time to learn about the apoapsis (high point) and periapsis (low point) - if you have an apoapsis above 70km, you'll be in space. (Most people tend to shoot for 80-100km apoapsis.) To keep yourself from falling back to Kerbin, point yourself prograde and burn at or close to your apoapsis to raise your periapsis to orbital level as well.
Just burning all the way up, it can be very easy to find yourself on your way to a long vacation in the deep. A good idea is to burn up to about 10km, then begin to tilt towards your preferred orbit (90 degrees is most common for equatorial orbit). Check in map view that your apoapsis will be about 90 or so, and you can shut down and coast. (Assuming you're going fast enough, but that doesn't seem to be a problem here - you do lose some speed and height from atmospheric drag.) As you approach apoapsis, you align prograde and then you burn to raise your periapsis until you're in orbit.
Check out videos by Scott Manley, they do a much better job (and in a Scottish accent, no less!) of explaining the general basics.
Hi guys, fairly new to KSP and need some advice, Im playing the Career mode and made a small Sattelite/SpaceStation/Fuel Station thing, now im trying to fly another Spacecraft to it and fuel it some more(want to fill the first one for the next flight).
Is there a trick on how to reach it? I set it as a target and wonder what the new pink marker is, i presume its just a "pointer" to show me where the target it right now.
So im trying to have craft #2 orbit Kerbal at the same height as the STation, but what then? when I'll have the same speed as the Sattelite, wont I? if I go faster, then the orbit shifts and Id actually distance myself more from it wont I?
On February 24 2014 15:03 Daumen wrote: Hi guys, fairly new to KSP and need some advice, Im playing the Career mode and made a small Sattelite/SpaceStation/Fuel Station thing, now im trying to fly another Spacecraft to it and fuel it some more(want to fill the first one for the next flight).
Is there a trick on how to reach it? I set it as a target and wonder what the new pink marker is, i presume its just a "pointer" to show me where the target it right now.
So im trying to have craft #2 orbit Kerbal at the same height as the STation, but what then? when I'll have the same speed as the Sattelite, wont I? if I go faster, then the orbit shifts and Id actually distance myself more from it wont I?
How do I approach it smartly?
If you are behind your target you should setup a smaller orbit (lower ap/pe). If you are ahead of your target you should setup a bigger orbit (higher ap/pe). ie 130k orbit if your target is doing a 150k orbit. This will make you go faster (catch up) and make you go slower (let your target catch up).
When you get pretty close to your target just set up a maneuver node to get an orbital rendezvous of about <3km. From there adjust the navball to show velocity to your target and burn it of to 0 m/s by burning retrograde (still relative to your target). Then burn towards your target, that's the pink dot with two half circles around it, up to about 15 m/s. Then wait patiently until you close onto your target. Start using RCS only when you get close and reduce your speed. When you get close enough to dock, set the docking port as your target. Try putting the prograde in the same position as the target+ on the navball. That should do it, this is the method I use.
On youtube there are a bunch of videos on it. I think this is the one I used. youtube vid It's kind of complex but once you learn it's not too hard, just time consuming.
On a side note, any recommended mods? I just got MechJeb and its like heaven itself opened its gates to me.
On February 24 2014 15:03 Daumen wrote: Hi guys, fairly new to KSP and need some advice, Im playing the Career mode and made a small Sattelite/SpaceStation/Fuel Station thing, now im trying to fly another Spacecraft to it and fuel it some more(want to fill the first one for the next flight).
Is there a trick on how to reach it? I set it as a target and wonder what the new pink marker is, i presume its just a "pointer" to show me where the target it right now.
So im trying to have craft #2 orbit Kerbal at the same height as the STation, but what then? when I'll have the same speed as the Sattelite, wont I? if I go faster, then the orbit shifts and Id actually distance myself more from it wont I?
How do I approach it smartly?
If you are behind your target you should setup a smaller orbit (lower ap/pe). If you are ahead of your target you should setup a bigger orbit (higher ap/pe). ie 130k orbit if your target is doing a 150k orbit. This will make you go faster (catch up) and make you go slower (let your target catch up).
When you get pretty close to your target just set up a maneuver node to get an orbital rendezvous of about <3km. From there adjust the navball to show velocity to your target and burn it of to 0 m/s by burning retrograde (still relative to your target). Then burn towards your target, that's the pink dot with two half circles around it, up to about 15 m/s. Then wait patiently until you close onto your target. Start using RCS only when you get close and reduce your speed. When you get close enough to dock, set the docking port as your target. Try putting the prograde in the same position as the target+ on the navball. That should do it, this is the method I use.
Thanks, ill do that, I thought this was the way to do it, but the way you put it seems easier than i'd imagine, 1 question though. Before I set up my bigger/smaller orbit, I should adjust the Ascending/descending node, how do I do that correctly?
Edit: Tried it once now, came as close as 300m but I was too fast, was shooting passed it, tried to navigate to it again but then i hit it with my thrusters and it got dmged ;D Ill try to get a perfect circular orbit this time, then adjusting towards it slowly.
Another question: are there any quick tips on Making Efficient SpaceCrafts? My current Refuel Mission seems not very good xD I might reach my Fuel Station thing but with way less Fuel than I had hoped. I think all my Crafts were all a bit Inefficient...
I made it to the Mun 2-3 Times and to Minmus, all of these Ventures returned to Kerbal but the Fuel always ran out or was close to running out. Any quick tips on how to Launch/Fly/Build efficient?
Efficient spacecraft. If you are using a fairings mod(procedural, KW etc), stick fairings on and don't get rid of them until you reach very high altitudes or space.
Payload & spacefaring stages. Depending on payload size, and desired travel distance, you either want to use rockomax 48-7s/LV-909's/nukes for this stage. TWR is not important here so much as minimizing the weight of this stage for the amount of DV you want. Don't forget to add a way to get electricity.
As for the lift stages. Generally speaking, you want to maintain ~1.8-2.2 TWR starting TWR, and maintain that until you hit 10000m or so before speeding up due to air resistance. You may way to switch from 2.5m parts to 1.25m parts after your first stage
On February 24 2014 16:13 Amui wrote: Efficient spacecraft. If you are using a fairings mod(procedural, KW etc), stick fairings on and don't get rid of them until you reach very high altitudes or space.
Payload & spacefaring stages. Depending on payload size, and desired travel distance, you either want to use rockomax 48-7s/LV-909's/nukes for this stage. TWR is not important here so much as minimizing the weight of this stage for the amount of DV you want. Don't forget to add a way to get electricity.
As for the lift stages. Generally speaking, you want to maintain ~1.8-2.2 TWR starting TWR, and maintain that until you hit 10000m or so before speeding up due to air resistance. You may way to switch from 2.5m parts to 1.25m parts after your first stage
I dont use any mods and I think I dont have any of those engines yet, also I didnt understand 80% of what you said :O Whats TWR? :X Im not very far yet in the Tech Tree.
Well to get you started, here's an example I made really quickly of a craft that can land on the moon, fly around a bunch, and come back to earth with fuel to spare with very basic parts. You'll need to be very careful with electricity usage if you haven't gotten battery packs or panels yet though. This means turning off SAS before time warping, making minimal movements, etc.
First stage - Boosters. These guys should really be the first stage(or two) of any starter rocket. Very high thrust and TWR for their size and weight. Seconds stage. Outer 4 liquid fuel rockets. If you have a heavier payload, you may want to stick all 5(with equal fuel) onto the same stage, and add one more smaller stage to get it into LKO(low kerbin orbit). The reasoning behind the single inner stage is that by that point in flight, you've already gotten as much vertical velocity as you'll need for LKO, but you don't yet have enough horizontal velocity, and you can afford a lower TWR stage to complete it. Once you get into LKO, the lander module has enough fuel to get to mun/minmus with ease, fly around a whole bunch and collect science. Once you're done, junk the outer 4 tanks+engines+legs and use the remainder to get back to kerbin. You don't actually need the relatively large central fuel tank on the lander stage, it was there to simulate the weight of a smaller fuel tank+science equipment. You can actually make it back to kerbin with a tank 1/4 the size. I would recommend more than just the nose parachute though.
On February 24 2014 16:50 Amui wrote: Well to get you started, here's an example I made really quickly of a craft that can land on the moon, fly around a bunch, and come back to earth with fuel to spare with very basic parts.
First stage - Boosters. These guys should really be the first stage(or two) of any starter rocket. Very high thrust and TWR for their size and weight. Seconds stage. Outer 4 liquid fuel rockets. If you have a heavier payload, you may want to stick all 5(with equal fuel) onto the same stage, and add one more smaller stage to get it into LKO(low kerbin orbit). The reasoning behind the single inner stage is that by that point in flight, you've already gotten as much vertical velocity as you'll need for LKO, but you don't yet have enough horizontal velocity, and you can afford a lower TWR stage to complete it. Once you get into LKO, the lander module has enough fuel to get to mun/minmus with ease, fly around a whole bunch and collect science. Once you're done, junk the outer 4 tanks+engines+legs and use the remainder to get back to kerbin. You don't actually need the relatively large central fuel tank on the lander stage, it was there to simulate the weight of a smaller fuel tank+science equipment. You can actually make it back to kerbin with a tank 1/4 the size. I would recommend more than just the nose parachute though.
Damn, mine tend to get bigger than your example, I got the Bigger booster, the white one. Is that one efficient at all compare to the small one?
Staging: Is it less efficient to use the Boosters & engines at the same time?
On February 24 2014 16:50 Amui wrote: Well to get you started, here's an example I made really quickly of a craft that can land on the moon, fly around a bunch, and come back to earth with fuel to spare with very basic parts.
First stage - Boosters. These guys should really be the first stage(or two) of any starter rocket. Very high thrust and TWR for their size and weight. Seconds stage. Outer 4 liquid fuel rockets. If you have a heavier payload, you may want to stick all 5(with equal fuel) onto the same stage, and add one more smaller stage to get it into LKO(low kerbin orbit). The reasoning behind the single inner stage is that by that point in flight, you've already gotten as much vertical velocity as you'll need for LKO, but you don't yet have enough horizontal velocity, and you can afford a lower TWR stage to complete it. Once you get into LKO, the lander module has enough fuel to get to mun/minmus with ease, fly around a whole bunch and collect science. Once you're done, junk the outer 4 tanks+engines+legs and use the remainder to get back to kerbin. You don't actually need the relatively large central fuel tank on the lander stage, it was there to simulate the weight of a smaller fuel tank+science equipment. You can actually make it back to kerbin with a tank 1/4 the size. I would recommend more than just the nose parachute though.
Damn, mine tend to get bigger than your example, I got the Bigger booster, the white one. Is that one efficient at all compare to the small one?
Staging: Is it less efficient to use the Boosters & engines at the same time?
Whats TWR?
Either is fine, bigger one will last longer though, and if space isn't a concern you might as well go with those for the ability to lift larger payloads for various reasons.
Staging - Only if it causes your speed to go too high and you start fighting the atmosphere too much. That's the primary reason why I don't run the boosters at the same time as the other stages for smaller craft, For larger craft this is much less of a concern.
TWR is thrust weight ratio, or how much force the engines provide in comparison to the craft's weight(different than mass, this is gravity dependant). Note that while engine output doesn't vary depending on the amount of fuel left, the weight of the craft does due to the burning fuel so as a result, TWR at the end of a stage can be significantly different than the start.
So you've already made a close approach happen with your target. All that is left to do is switch to Target speed (you click on the Orbital/Surface speed display to switch modes, it changes automatically if you're close to the target). Burn the retrograde indicator (in target mode!) until it reaches 0. You are now not moving relative to your target, just point at it and move in that direction from there. Docking is pretty tough in the beginning, so be prepared to practice rendezvous and docking a lot.
Rendezvous is easiest if your target is in a circular orbit with no inclination. Then you can just increase the apoapsis for your refueling craft by a little bit, hit time warp and wait a few (or more) orbits until you get a close approach at periapsis. Remember you will have to use the same amount of delta v to change your orbit back to the target orbit, so small changes ftw.
This tutorial also covers rendezvous very well:
For docking everyone has their own method to help them. In the beginning I just watched MechJeb and learned from there. Basically, you want to find as many ways as possible to make it easier when you're still learning. How I made it easy for me: 1. Point the target docking port south, this has the advantage that the direction will never change 2. Get close to and underneath the target, with RCS or without 3. Point north and check where the target is shown on the navball 4. Use RCS controls (I-J-K-L) to move the target north on your navball. You know where to move via navball. For example, the target is to the top right of north on your navball, press K and L until your prograde marker is even more to the top right than your target. It will "push" the target on your navball to the north marker. Adjust the prograde until it is pointing north along with the target. This allows you to ignore the relative rotation, just the direction on the navball is important. 5. Use H (N to slow down) to move straight to the docking port. IRL docking happens at 3cm/s, in the game you can dock at 1m/s without worries.
For efficiency in space, you want to use the engine with the highest Isp and at most 2 engines. If you add 16 Nukes with Isp 800 for example, you're just screwing yourself over, because every engine beyond 1 will increase your mass+thrust, but not your Isp.
If you reach orbit with less fuel than desired, you probably just to need know beforehand how much delta v your rocket actually has. I recommend MechJeb or Kerbal Engineer for that. MechJeb can offer you more information (not necessary if you only want to know delta v or basic altitude stuff) and comes with autopilot and maneuver planner (not recommended since it teaches little and its maneuvers are suboptimal).
On February 24 2014 16:50 Amui wrote: Well to get you started, here's an example I made really quickly of a craft that can land on the moon, fly around a bunch, and come back to earth with fuel to spare with very basic parts.
First stage - Boosters. These guys should really be the first stage(or two) of any starter rocket. Very high thrust and TWR for their size and weight. Seconds stage. Outer 4 liquid fuel rockets. If you have a heavier payload, you may want to stick all 5(with equal fuel) onto the same stage, and add one more smaller stage to get it into LKO(low kerbin orbit). The reasoning behind the single inner stage is that by that point in flight, you've already gotten as much vertical velocity as you'll need for LKO, but you don't yet have enough horizontal velocity, and you can afford a lower TWR stage to complete it. Once you get into LKO, the lander module has enough fuel to get to mun/minmus with ease, fly around a whole bunch and collect science. Once you're done, junk the outer 4 tanks+engines+legs and use the remainder to get back to kerbin. You don't actually need the relatively large central fuel tank on the lander stage, it was there to simulate the weight of a smaller fuel tank+science equipment. You can actually make it back to kerbin with a tank 1/4 the size. I would recommend more than just the nose parachute though.
Damn, mine tend to get bigger than your example, I got the Bigger booster, the white one. Is that one efficient at all compare to the small one?
Staging: Is it less efficient to use the Boosters & engines at the same time?
Whats TWR?
Boosters are used to increase your thrust in the lower atmosphere, basically a quick fix if you notice you just needed a bit more thrust to get your rocket into orbit. Using fuel engines + fuel lines is more efficient.
HELL YES! I finally docked ;D Took forever, adjusting with RCS is freaking weird and difficult. I think ill get better at it with practice, and my RCS positioning was probably bad, should have either more of them or better placement. was close to the FuelStation for a very long time and burned a lot of Monopropellant ;D but Im there... im so happy ;D thanks everyone! ;D
On February 24 2014 16:50 Amui wrote: Well to get you started, here's an example I made really quickly of a craft that can land on the moon, fly around a bunch, and come back to earth with fuel to spare with very basic parts.
First stage - Boosters. These guys should really be the first stage(or two) of any starter rocket. Very high thrust and TWR for their size and weight. Seconds stage. Outer 4 liquid fuel rockets. If you have a heavier payload, you may want to stick all 5(with equal fuel) onto the same stage, and add one more smaller stage to get it into LKO(low kerbin orbit). The reasoning behind the single inner stage is that by that point in flight, you've already gotten as much vertical velocity as you'll need for LKO, but you don't yet have enough horizontal velocity, and you can afford a lower TWR stage to complete it. Once you get into LKO, the lander module has enough fuel to get to mun/minmus with ease, fly around a whole bunch and collect science. Once you're done, junk the outer 4 tanks+engines+legs and use the remainder to get back to kerbin. You don't actually need the relatively large central fuel tank on the lander stage, it was there to simulate the weight of a smaller fuel tank+science equipment. You can actually make it back to kerbin with a tank 1/4 the size. I would recommend more than just the nose parachute though.
Damn, mine tend to get bigger than your example, I got the Bigger booster, the white one. Is that one efficient at all compare to the small one?
Staging: Is it less efficient to use the Boosters & engines at the same time?
Whats TWR?
Either is fine, bigger one will last longer though, and if space isn't a concern you might as well go with those for the ability to lift larger payloads for various reasons.
Staging - Only if it causes your speed to go too high and you start fighting the atmosphere too much. That's the primary reason why I don't run the boosters at the same time as the other stages for smaller craft, For larger craft this is much less of a concern.
TWR is thrust weight ratio, or how much force the engines provide in comparison to the craft's weight(different than mass, this is gravity dependant). Note that while engine output doesn't vary depending on the amount of fuel left, the weight of the craft does due to the burning fuel so as a result, TWR at the end of a stage can be significantly different than the start.
Thank you ;D
So, if you build a slightly bigger one, do you add more to the sides ? Build it like a Pyramid and drop those off later or do you keep the same width ?
Lol, my Fuel Station + Docked Ship looks ugly as fuck ;D
On February 24 2014 17:41 Epoxide wrote: You should check out the asparagus design, you can get pretty small rockets to mun/minmus with the nuclear engine using that
ah yeah, ive seen that one once before, ty ill try that one out ;D
On February 24 2014 17:29 nimbim wrote: For efficiency in space, you want to use the engine with the highest Isp and at most 2 engines. If you add 16 Nukes with Isp 800 for example, you're just screwing yourself over, because every engine beyond 1 will increase your mass+thrust, but not your Isp.
If you reach orbit with less fuel than desired, you probably just to need know beforehand how much delta v your rocket actually has. I recommend MechJeb or Kerbal Engineer for that. MechJeb can offer you more information (not necessary if you only want to know delta v or basic altitude stuff) and comes with autopilot and maneuver planner (not recommended since it teaches little and its maneuvers are suboptimal).
Whats lsp?
I see that my LV-T45 has 320(ASL) - 370(Vac) but what does that mean? :o
also: I think im pretty far from having Nukes: (i presume its on the top right)
Nukes are just the prime example for efficiency in space, because they have the highest Isp in vacuum of all stock engines (apart from Ions, which have so low thrust that they are of little use gameplay wise).
Isp means specific impulse. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specific_impulse "It represents the force with respect to the amount of propellant used per unit time." A measure for efficiency.
ASL stands for at sea level. Low Isp, high thrust engines are better for the lower atmosphere, because you want to get out of there asap (every second you spend there is subjecting your craft to drag). High Isp, low thrust for space, because burn time is mostly irrelevant (no drag, only your patience matters).
So the small LV-909 is actually better to use while in Space. High Vac Isp, its more efficient in Space and its also less heavy, making the craft slightly easier to get off Kerbin :O
Am I right ? Thats the kind of Tip Ive been looking for. Very helpful ;D
Nuke engines are pretty terrible for just getting to the mun or minmus. They don't provide enough efficiency to justify the massive weight. For my lander craft above, a nuke would be a full third of the weight. The increased ISP wouldn't make up for the ability to drop off excess tanks and store much more fuel for the same weight.. If you want to send like 20 tons to Jool, or send 100t into orbit around the mun, then you can justify using the nukes.
On February 24 2014 18:10 Daumen wrote: So the small LV-909 is actually better to use while in Space. High Vac Isp, its more efficient in Space and its also less heavy, making the craft slightly easier to get off Kerbin :O
Am I right ? Thats the kind of Tip Ive been looking for. Very helpful ;D
Just be careful because that engine doesn't generate electricity. Also note that for very small craft(sub 5T) the tiny rockomax's can be even better than the LV909 because of the tiny weight.
EPT
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