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Are we talking about the same hand? Now I'm confused. Was it a shove? I was playing EVE at the time and I've also been up for nearly 24 hours so perhaps I'm misremembering.
Either way jamming AT in LP with 15 BBs that late in a tourney is pretty damn standard. A lot of tourney sickos will open ship 20 BBs in some spots. The fact that your opponents' calling ranges are very tight actually makes a wider shoving range much better, not worse. This is all very basic stuff.
You aren't considering FE or hand ranges or anything. I don't know what else to tell you.
Either way, the first guy to reply to your post on 2+2 is a genius imo and the greatest tourney sicko ever.
Edit - altho before we continue thsi banter we should make sure we're talking about the same hand. However, I can tell you that your logic is highly flawed regardless of whether the end result is correct or not. A tighter calling range doesn't necessarily you should have a tighter shoving range when we're talking about late game pushbot stuff. It's almost always the opposite.
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Also not to come off as a prick, but I have a ton of tourney experience both online and live and have run deep in a lot of huge tournaments (sunday mil FT, stars 100k win, multiple WSOP cashes and deep runs, etc.). I'm not just talking out my ass here.
But it's possible we're talking about 2 different hands and thus the confusion. Like I said it's late, I've been up like 24 hours and I've had a few beers.
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On July 20 2011 19:21 Karak wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2011 19:06 Zlasher wrote:On July 20 2011 18:56 Karak wrote:On July 20 2011 18:20 Zlasher wrote:
Hewitt has played LEAPS AND BOUNDS worse than everyone on that table. He's called with A10o KNOWING that at best he's coinflipping against a lower pocket pair but there is no hand that is worse that he can beat. And now he's calling with KQo? What is wrong with this guy he knows that the very worst hand someones going in with is AJ... The AT call was marginal but fine. I'd even go so far to say it's near-standard. At a minimum it's easily defensible and anyone who plays MTTs isn't going to harp too hard on him for that. The KQ call was pretty bad. He made a very bad ICM calculation (both in terms of cEV and IRL EV of being a Nov. 9er). Dude the AT was and absolutely awful call are you joking? What does he beat? He's folded for 4 hours straight blinding out from 22 to 13m who calls him with less than 10's JJ QQ KK AA AK AQ AJ? Against what, You think anyones calling someone playing that tight on the final 10 with K9? or less than 9's? People aren't willing to flip to break their stacks as evidenced by the 10 flops we saw out of 100 hands of 3 bets and folds. Its a stretch to even say that someone with AJ or 10's would call him, let alone the bevy of hands worse. His best case scenario is a flip against 9's or lower (nobodies going to call 13m with that, not even O'Dea or Stazco who are chip leaders. The KQ call was even worse, lets not even get into that. You don't play much tournament poker do you? I can't really fully explain why it's standard in less than 5 minutes time (and I'm about to pass out), but I'll leave you with this thought: There are situations in poker where your hand is likely behind the opponent's range and calling is still an easy and correct move. Also, his range wasn't as tight as you made it out to be. I didn't say the AT was a super solid call (or do I mean to imply it's a snap fold), but to say it's "horrible" is pretty lol. It's defensible at a minimum. Also huge lol @ folding TT. Honestly, I should just Pokerstove this and solve it, but I really think your range is far too tight. However, if you have the stack sizes, blinds, etc. pokerstove can at least get us halfway there. I'm about to pass out tho. Perhaps tmw. It's close, but it's not horrible by any means.
You were gonna pass out in 5 minutes and post on 2+2 an hour and half later?  lol come on now.
I'd still love to see the math, no I don't play as much tournament poker as you seem to, but I DON'T believe the calling range is looser than what I named. People aren't calling with many medium pocket pairs and nobody is calling without AJ+, even AJ is a stretch. He folded for 4-5 straight hours dude, through two levels and nobody called a single all-in without a premium hand, of which ATo is NOT in a final 10 situation.
Please explain it in more grandiose fashion if you're reading this, or tomorrow when you wake up because I want to learn how in gods name that is a good call in the situation, a 175,000 dollar +EV value call.
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ya well 2p2 is addicting. thus why i have 35k posts there.
before i opine further can we define exactly which hand we are talking about? link it on pokernews and we'll look from there? ok im out now tho bye.
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On July 20 2011 20:46 Karak wrote:
Also not to come off as a prick, but I have a ton of tourney experience both online and live and have run deep in a lot of huge tournaments (sunday mil FT, stars 100k win, multiple WSOP cashes and deep runs, etc.). I'm not just talking out my ass here.
But it's possible we're talking about 2 different hands and thus the confusion. Like I said it's late, I've been up like 24 hours and I've had a few beers.
I'm 99% sure I'm a worse player than you but that doesn't mean that it was a good call.
Let me try to find the hand history/report on it on pokernews and repost it here so you can reevaluate it now, or when you're more sober.
Oh looks like I was listing the hand history wrong  was watching my roommate play BW at the time I think, but let me repost it. I apologize about earlier then Karak, just thought that the playw as much more idiotic than it was.
+ Show Spoiler +Matt Giannetti open-shoved his last 5.5 million from under the gun, and the action folded all the way to John Hewitt in the big blind. Upon sweating his cards, he ripped his hood off of his head, and went into the tank. He painstakingly called, and was in bad shape. Showdown Giannetti: {j-Spades}{j-Clubs} Hewitt: {a-Spades}{10-Hearts} Giannetti looked sick. Despite having way the best hand, he was pacing back and forth on the main stage, unable to look at the table. His friends David Williams and Nenad Medic tried to console him, but it was no use. The dealer rapped the table, and delivered a flop of {k-Hearts}{4-Hearts}{8-Clubs}. Seemingly the entire crowd was rooting against Giannetti. A few Ukrainian gentlemen were yelling, "ace" with a thick accent, and other people were calling for running hearts. "Jack of diamonds for a sweat," Medic joked from the rail. The turn was the {5-Clubs}. Giannetti's rail clapped loudly, knowing he was on the verge of a much-needed double up. The mothership fell silent right as the river was about to be dealt, and when the {6-Spades} hit the felt Giannetti's rail exploded. He doubled to over 11 million chips, while Hewitt dropped to just 10.4 million. Read more: http://www.pokernews.com/live-reporting/2011-world-series-of-poker/event-58-no-limit-hold-em-championship/?tag=John Hewitt
Sorry so let me rephrase
Gianetti went all in UTG short stacked
Hewitt (and I remember this) sat there for like 3 minutes debating his move and called the all-in with ATo
Gianetti wouldn't be stealing from UTG 10 handed. Once again his hand range (and you're absolutely right, I was wrong) is wider, probably 6's+ and AT+, maybe KQ, I find it hard to imagine QJs or KJs, but we'll throw those in there
At that point what is he beating? He's beating KQ, QJs, KJs, 60/40 and flipping against 6's, 7's 8's and 9's.
Gianetti was playing only pretty decent hands, but this isn't something that we would have seen, or can expect Hewitt to know.
Was he gaining good value, when he knows a loss cripples him to bottom two and about 20bb, when he is sitting on, at the time a solid 30bb to work with.
Nobody has called All-ins up to that point, even with much more premium hands and significantly better stacks than Hewitts.
Especially after all 8 hands fold in front of you, do you really think that ATo is the best of the 9 hands other than Gianetti's? And what does that really beat.
He said in his post game interview he was willing to coinflip against that range, when he had KQ, and instead he had AT for this hand, and this range is relatively the same (he called though, instead of the one to open shove obviously).
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On July 20 2011 20:05 coko wrote:
9 Samuel Holden 13,725,000
COME ON MY SON! YOU CAN DO IT!
Wow, Holden lasted that long. Congrats to your buddy (or w/e  )!
I'm rooting for him and Ben Lamb.
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Why do they delay till novemember 9?
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On July 20 2011 22:56 Scaramanga wrote:
Why do they delay till novemember 9?
To let the production episodes bleed out on ESPN and then they can make it OMG BIG DEAL WE STILL DON'T KNOW WHO THE CHAMPS AREEEEE
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On July 20 2011 20:05 coko wrote:
9 Samuel Holden 13,725,000
COME ON MY SON! YOU CAN DO IT!
lol I was watching yesterday and kind of going for him.
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On July 21 2011 01:14 Contagious wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2011 20:05 coko wrote:
9 Samuel Holden 13,725,000
COME ON MY SON! YOU CAN DO IT! lol I was watching yesterday and kind of going for him.
Support him, guy is great, polite and funny! No douche here.
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lol only 3 us players left eventhough like 90 % were us at the beginning
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On July 21 2011 03:21 coko wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 01:14 Contagious wrote:On July 20 2011 20:05 coko wrote:
9 Samuel Holden 13,725,000
COME ON MY SON! YOU CAN DO IT! lol I was watching yesterday and kind of going for him. Support him, guy is great, polite and funny! No douche here.
Doesn't seem/sound like one! Can you tell anything about him? Earnings, pokerhistory and so on. If you mind me asking.
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Don't play too much mtt but that ATo call seems awful based on what zlasher's saying, esp. because of table dynamics up to that point, that it was UTG shipping at a crucial point in the tourney, and the fact that he has ATo and is never ahead and either flipping or behind.
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I just ran the hand by my friends, one who plays midstakes and another who used to play high stakes. Used pokerstove and theres no way thats a good call, they both say.
According to pokerstove he's winning against a normal range about 37% of the time (we even threw in two cards of complete air into it, just for the hell of it in case someone wants to widen the range, but from UTG, they wouldn't shove with 7's or less.
So to be generous I'll put his range at 6's+, ATs+, KJs+, AJo+, and KQo
Thats being PRETTY generous Karak, no? He gets 37% against that range.
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I don't think Giannetti is ever shipping 66-77, KJs, AJo, or KQo utg in the ME 10 handed.
Hewitt donked it off hard. I also LOL'd when he told Kara Scott that he just went with math with KQ call. What retard math did he learn? He calls a shove from tightest dude at table who is very clearly trying to hollywood a huge fucking hand. He starts spouting off the extreme bottom of Belize's range to try and justify it.
I am 100% ok with Hewitt playing like shit though, since Giannetti is my first pick to win the ME. Guy is a sick baller and im 3rd degree of separation from him. 2ndd pick is O'dea. Total sick story with the Father/Son angle. He is a great player with good past results. Real easy to get behind.
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Yeah thats why I said I was being generous lol, in all honesty his range is significantly tighter than that, which makes the call even worse of a play lol
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On July 21 2011 03:25 sVnteen wrote:lol only 3 us players left eventhough like 90 % were us at the beginning
I can't find the links now but every stat I saw while perusing around the wsop site was completely dominated by US players except the one you mention.
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Bump and shamelessly using some of the 2+2's livethread content.
Sunday afternoon 2011 World Series of Poker Main Event final table gets underway shortly after 12:00pm PT (3:00pm ET).
Broadcast will resume Sunday, Nov. 6 at 3:30pm ET on ESPN2 and WATCHESPN. Lon McEachern and David Tuchman will lead the coverage with Olivier Busquet, Phil Hellmuth and others expected to provide commentary. Coverage will be on a 15-minute delay with hole cards revealed after the hand is played out. (Additional streams should be in the OP.)
Seating: level 36 (blinds of 250,000/500,000)
+ Show Spoiler +Seat 1: Matt Gianetti - 24,750,000
Seat 2: Badih Bou-Nahra - 19,700,00
Seat 3: Eoghan O'Dea - 33,925,000
Seat 4: Phil Collins - 23,875,000
Seat 5: Anton Makiievskyi - 13,825,000
Seat 6: Sam Holden - 12,375,000
Seat 7: Pius Heinz - 16,425,000
Seat 8: Ben Lamb - 20,875,000
Seat 9: Martin Staszko - 40,175,000
Payouts
+ Show Spoiler +Each of the nine players at the WSOP ME final table received $782,115 with the remaining $21,230,330 entered into a Fidelity money market account. An additional $9,858 in interest was generated and is reflected in the payouts below:
1st: $8,715,638
2nd: $5,433,086
3rd: $4,021,138
4th: $3,012,700
5th: $2,269,599
6th: $1,720,831
7th: $1,314,097
8th: $1,010,015
Whos gonna take it all? Any TLers betting on the winner?
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EPT
