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On November 17 2013 15:40 MCMcEmcee wrote:
Yeah dark confidant, sylvan library, and green sun's zenith are such poor card draw and library manipulation...
When the competition for those cards in legacy is Brainstorm, Ponder, Wishes, intuition, Jace the Mind sculptor, etc... Yeah, they are.
Are they strong card draw? Sure. But are they comparable to other card draw options in their format? Fuck no.
My legacy deck is maverick, I run both Zenith and Knight and I still don't get as good a draw as RUG, BUG, Show and Tell, ANT, etc...
The presence of card draw does not negate that in comparison to other decks In its format it has bad card draws.
Deadguy Ale, Maverick, Jund, etc... Do not win because of their card draw.
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On November 17 2013 15:58 Judicator wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2013 15:40 MCMcEmcee wrote:
Yeah dark confidant, sylvan library, and green sun's zenith are such poor card draw and library manipulation... Aren't I suppose to be the one saying that? So much acid :D
;o
I mean I understand that there was once a point where Junk was just a terrible pile of terrible cards, but at the very least Legacy/Modern Junk is a terrible pile of good cards now...
There is very little actual card draw in Legacy, Sylvan Library and Dark Confidant generate more card advantage than pretty much any blue card that isn't Jace or Ancestral Vision.
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On November 17 2013 20:13 MCMcEmcee wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2013 15:58 Judicator wrote:On November 17 2013 15:40 MCMcEmcee wrote:
Yeah dark confidant, sylvan library, and green sun's zenith are such poor card draw and library manipulation... Aren't I suppose to be the one saying that? So much acid :D ;o I mean I understand that there was once a point where Junk was just a terrible pile of terrible cards, but at the very least Legacy/Modern Junk is a terrible pile of good cards now... There is very little actual card draw in Legacy, Sylvan Library and Dark Confidant generate more card advantage than pretty much any blue card that isn't Jace or Ancestral Vision.
Junk *is* and *always* has been a pile of good cards ever since spiritmonger was considered a good creature.
But calling it a deck with strong card drawing because it runs a 1 of library or 3-4 dark confidants is being dishonest. Calling zenith good draw when it is normally just a 3cc tutor for either Teeg, Pridemage, or ooze is also dishonest. And calling knight of the reliquary good draw when majority of maverick decks only have 8 lands at most that they can sacrifice to the knight is also dishonest.
Calling junk a deck with good draws when BUG runs confidant, ancestral visions, jace, shard less agents, AND the brainstorm/ponder duo shows just how behind Junk decks are when their strongest card draw is just one of the 8 card draw options of one of the other creature heavy grindy decks in legacy.
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Shardless BUG doesn't have much card draw or card selection compared to High Tide, nothing BUG plays compares to Meditate, Time Spiral, or Blue Sun's Zenith. Calling BUG a deck with good draws just shows you how far behind BUG decks are compared to decks that actually draw cards.
Seriously, Junk's problem isn't card selection or card advantage. It's mostly the fact that midrange-y creature decks suck.
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throw in a few divining tops, every deck gets good draws!
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On November 18 2013 04:36 caelym wrote:
throw in a few divining tops, every deck gets good draws!
there are few things that feel worse than your opponent having an active top the entire game
edit:
one of those worse things is your opponent having an active jitte, rip wescoe
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On November 18 2013 03:31 MCMcEmcee wrote:
Shardless BUG doesn't have much card draw or card selection compared to High Tide, nothing BUG plays compares to Meditate, Time Spiral, or Blue Sun's Zenith. Calling BUG a deck with good draws just shows you how far behind BUG decks are compared to decks that actually draw cards.
Seriously, Junk's problem isn't card selection or card advantage. It's mostly the fact that midrange-y creature decks suck.
Actually, yes, High Tide is much better at card draw than BUG.
But if you wanted to play a deck that wins by attacking with swarms of small creatures while having good card draw--you play BUG instead of High Tide. If you want to have better spells but even weaker card draw than that, you play Junk, if you want to play even more creature heavy but with less card draw than that you play some kind of tribal deck.
Not elves, they draw shit tonnes of cards with glimpse.
Not goblins, they draw shit tonnes of cards with their Fact or Fiction on a stick.
Maybe something like Merfolk, which has bigger creatures than Junk, better disruption than Junk, is faster than Junk, stops combo better than junk, and sometimes has better card draw than Junk in the use of Standstill and Mutavaults.
Junk, for the most part, wins games by topdecking bombs.
Midrange Creature decks are actually very very prevalent and powerful right now.
BUG?
UWR Delver?
Stoneblade
GWR/GWU Maverick
A lot of SCG Legacy matches have long grindy creature fights that are won after resolving spells like Ancestral Visions, Jitte, Lilianna, etc...
The problem is not that Midrange Creature Decks suck, the problem is that Junk is not very visibly successful right now.
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If you can't understand the distinction between "decks with creatures" and "creature decks" then this discussion isn't going anywhere. BUG, Stoneblade, Delver- none of these are "creature decks."
Also Maverick is literally the current Junk deck.
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On November 18 2013 10:52 MCMcEmcee wrote:
If you can't understand the distinction between "decks with creatures" and "creature decks" then this discussion isn't going anywhere. BUG, Stoneblade, Delver- none of these are "creature decks."
Also Maverick is literally the current Junk deck.
iirc, overruning your opponent with 2-4 creatures in the red zone while casting support spells is, by definition, a creature deck...
Or do you consider Tempest Era sligh decks with their 16 goblins non-creature decks?
What about Fires of Yavimaya decks who only ran 12-14 aggressive creatures, are those not creature decks anymore?
Or maybe its about style, you don't like it if they feel too control-esque.
Like Rebel decks, that kept their lands up each turn in order to draw a card each turn with the rebel search.
Or rock decks, who run tutors and wraths
Or Jund Decks who win off of 2:1 trades
You know what Maverick has run in the last several SCGlive top 8s?
Jace, Brainstorm, Wild Nacatle, Lightning Bolt, Confidant, Thoughtseize, etc....
Maverick can easily have heavy card draw, if it ran Jace and Brainstorm. Or it could have very little card draw, and run Nacatles and bolts, or it could be a mixture of the two, and run Thoughtseize and Confidant.
Much like the metagame at large, Maverick can either choose to be the deck with good draws (a la miracles with Jace and Brainstorm), the deck with consistent draws (A la burn with its low cost aggression and damage spells), or Junk.
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Maverick isn't Maverick if it's playing blue. That's the point.
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On November 18 2013 13:35 deth2munkies wrote:
Maverick isn't Maverick if it's playing blue. That's the point.
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
4 Zenith
4 Mana Dork
1 Teeg
1 Ooz
1-2 Hatebear of choice
4 Swords to Plowshares
22 Lands
That leaves 14 cards to be whatever.
Thalias
Stoneforge
Confidants
Thoughtseize
Jace
Brainstorm
Punishing Fire
Lightning Bolt
etc...
You could pretty much add in any color to maverick and it will play like Maverick no matter if your turn 4 is Jace, Punishing Fire Recursion, or Batterskull swings.
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What... Maverick can play blue.
Maverick is Wg(x) answerbears
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The old RUG/4color CounterTop decks used to kill with Tarmogoyf. TES and Charbelcher often kill with a bunch of Goblin tokens. I think even you would agree that none of these are creature decks.
Nobody ever plays "blue Maverick" because Thalia + Brainstorm is pretty miserable and the only worthwhile blue creature in a Maverick style strategy is Geist (maybe sideboard Meddling Mage) and Geist really doesn't do enough to be worth splashing for. Pretty much every Maverick deck now is GW splash black for Deathrite and Abrupt Decay, and then on top of that they might splash red for Punishing Fire.
Reid Duke's deck from the SCG is much closer to Stoneblade than anything else and really plays nothing like Maverick.
I am honestly wondering where these mysterious "last several SCG top 8s" are. Maverick has only top 8'd an Open like 5 times this year (most of them happening before the release of M14) and literally none of those decks played Jace or Wild Nacatl. By your own definition, the decks that did play Jace or Wild Nacatl weren't Maverick decks. Punishing Maverick literally hasn't top 8'd a single Open this year.
Anyways this discussion is going nowhere so whatever.
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Maverick is Maverick because it's a Maverick deck for not playing blue in legacy.
Teeg/Jace and Thalia/Brainstorm are quite the nombos. G/W's plan is to hate out blue decks through symmetrical effects that don't bother them, playing blue completely fucks that plan.
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On November 19 2013 12:32 deth2munkies wrote:
Maverick is Maverick because it's a Maverick deck for not playing blue in legacy.
Teeg/Jace and Thalia/Brainstorm are quite the nombos. G/W's plan is to hate out blue decks through symmetrical effects that don't bother them, playing blue completely fucks that plan.
Thalia/Brainstorm is as bad as Thalia/Thoughtseize, Thalia/Swords, Thalia/Equipment, Thalia/Zenith, Thalia/etc...
Teeg/Jace is also as bad as Teeg/Zenith
Stop making up arbitrary card conflictions that didn't already exist within pure GW Maverick let alone GWx Maverick.
Some GWB maverick decks run both Deathrite AND Knight of the Reliquary
Some GWR Maverick decks run Grove of the Burnwillows+swords to plowshares with Lightning Bolts
Adding blue to Maverick does not conflict with anything that Maverick already does.
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On November 19 2013 12:45 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2013 12:32 deth2munkies wrote:
Maverick is Maverick because it's a Maverick deck for not playing blue in legacy.
Teeg/Jace and Thalia/Brainstorm are quite the nombos. G/W's plan is to hate out blue decks through symmetrical effects that don't bother them, playing blue completely fucks that plan. Thalia/Brainstorm is as bad as Thalia/Thoughtseize, Thalia/Swords, Thalia/Equipment, Thalia/Zenith, Thalia/etc... Teeg/Jace is also as bad as Teeg/Zenith Stop making up arbitrary card conflictions that didn't already exist within pure GW Maverick let alone GWx Maverick. Some GWB maverick decks run both Deathrite AND Knight of the Reliquary Some GWR Maverick decks run Grove of the Burnwillows+swords to plowshares with Lightning Bolts Adding blue to Maverick does not conflict with anything that Maverick already does.
Urr, Maverick plays Mystic. Equipment and Swords to Plowshares are way more palatable than Thalia/Brainstorm/Ponder/Force of Will. C'mon. There's a tension but they aren't in the same degrees.
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On November 19 2013 12:56 slyboogie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2013 12:45 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 19 2013 12:32 deth2munkies wrote:
Maverick is Maverick because it's a Maverick deck for not playing blue in legacy.
Teeg/Jace and Thalia/Brainstorm are quite the nombos. G/W's plan is to hate out blue decks through symmetrical effects that don't bother them, playing blue completely fucks that plan. Thalia/Brainstorm is as bad as Thalia/Thoughtseize, Thalia/Swords, Thalia/Equipment, Thalia/Zenith, Thalia/etc... Teeg/Jace is also as bad as Teeg/Zenith Stop making up arbitrary card conflictions that didn't already exist within pure GW Maverick let alone GWx Maverick. Some GWB maverick decks run both Deathrite AND Knight of the Reliquary Some GWR Maverick decks run Grove of the Burnwillows+swords to plowshares with Lightning Bolts Adding blue to Maverick does not conflict with anything that Maverick already does. Urr, Maverick plays Mystic. Equipment and Swords to Plowshares are way more palatable than Thalia/Brainstorm/Ponder/Force of Will. C'mon. There's a tension but they aren't in the same degrees.
Reid Duke abused Brainstorm/Jace by synergizing them with Zenith, knight, and mystic activations. Because Brainstorm actually has a LOT of synergy with a deck that runs 12 ways to reshuffle the deck not counting lands.
Blinding yourself to rules and limitations only enforced by how you feel about an archetype and not on te nuts and bolts that make an archetype work only hurts yourself.
The core of maverick is Knights+Zeniths+swords/mom. Most people then support that with a Stoneforge mystic package. Some use a natural order package, others with Thalia's. Others with Thoughtseize. And others with Jace/Brainstorm.
What support packages you mix with your core doesn't make it stop being a maverick deck. Archetypes are not defined by what they don't play.
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Where are these supposed versions of Maverick? Maverick hasn't deviated from GWb(sometimes also splash red) since the printing of deathrite shaman and abrupt decay.
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The argument has devolved into semantics and labeling, you guys should probably stop. For what it's worth I think blue decks have the best card draw and deck fixing, better than any other color.
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On November 19 2013 13:12 MCMcEmcee wrote:
Where are these supposed versions of Maverick? Maverick hasn't deviated from GWb(sometimes also splash red) since the printing of deathrite shaman and abrupt decay.
I assume this is the deck
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=5910&d=234265
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EPT
