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On September 26 2011 23:14 Checkm8 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 22:38 Elefanto wrote:On September 26 2011 15:43 cordlc wrote:
Yeah, what Wolf wrote there is nonsense. I enjoy his casting, but I never liked his analysis.
Anyone who's closely followed MC's games knows he isn't a fluke. Of course he wins many games from timing attacks (complemented with excellent unit control) alone, as that's what the Protoss race excels at due to the warpgate mechanic. Perhaps occasionally he does do silly things, like stubbornly trying a 4-gate in PvP when it has no chance at working, but that's generally a rare sight from him.
I'm not his biggest fan (I favor unique styles, he's more standard), but when watching his games, it becomes clear he is (or was) the most all-around Protoss. Not only is his micro / macro top-notch, but he always came up with his own amazing build orders, played smart, solid, with minimal mistakes. Basically the best standard Protoss play we've seen, definitely deserving of winning GSL twice. You can't say that about any other Protoss nowadays, not yet, anyway.
So what if he fell out of Code A? He's just not playing as great as he used to, during a time when Protoss is by far the toughest race to be. Everyone has a slump period, no big deal. He'll be back to Code S in no time. MC is easily among the best 32 players in the world, claiming he's not even Code A material is a joke. Even HongUn is still in Code S. I think what wolf means is that his overall style doesn't work anymore. For instance PvZ, his 4gate / 6gate / forge expansion into stargate, 1gate expansion into stargate and then Colossus Ball. Sadly these styles aren't working that well anymore. Yet MC still exclusively plays only those styles, probably because he thinks they are the strongest. Wolf probably means that MC has to change his approach to the Matchups, and has to build them new up from the scratch. And change his style into something similar to Sage / Hero / Tails / JYP. You can't just transition into these styles without heavily practice with them. Their strengths, weakness, timings, reactions etc. MC was always a formidable Macro player, with excellent mechanics. But most players died too early to let him showcase it. Currently he's behind in a major way in every PvZ entering the mid-game, fighting a huge uphill battle. As soon as Protoss figures out new styles / timings / refined builds, he'll be back up in no time. Whenever i watch MC compared to other Protoss, his play seems WAY more crisp, refined and clean. I've rarely seen a MC game where i thought he played sloppy, his unit control was lacking, or his macro was bad. When was the last time that MC's 6 gate after expand failed? The only time I've heard it failed was with his game against PuMa, but that was after expanding late (or was it?). When his 6 gate play is flawless, it's unstoppable. It's just that he's doing more macro-oriented games nowadays, not his usual super deadly timing pushes.
He doesn't use them any more because in practice games they don't work. In PvZ, Z drones harder, in PvT T pulls SCVs better etc.
If you look at his games in the up & down matches against Losira it really really shows how far behind he is currently; he uses safe builds and gets crushed. With the current map pool it is hard to macro straight up on many maps vs Z. PvZ is a mess in Korea and straight up play that MC is trying to make work doesn't. Rebuilding your style is neither easy or quick. MC (and protoss in general) have resorted to cheesy strats since forever and really now in the GSL we can see how it is needed.
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On September 26 2011 14:17 Azzur wrote:Interesting opinion of MC from Wolf: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=269282Show nested quote +It's not going to be easy for him. If you want my honest opinion, I think MC isn't ready for Code A yet. He lost to Monster, who is a mediocre Zerg who got into Code A through a somewhat lucky run through the qualifiers. I've been sitting on this opinion for a long time now. When discussing this with many progamers during the Super Tournament, I was always of the opinion "In just a few seasons, MC will be out of the GSL". No one believed me. He's out. MC needs to rework his entire playstyle. His success was based on timing attacks that no one had really seen at the time. Then, he refined those timing attacks to make them seem unbeatable. Afterwards, many Protosses tried to learn from him. It was the era of the X-Gate. Four gates, six gates, seven gates, seven gate blink stalker +2 timing attacks, etc. Players like HongUn also found success during this time. During this era, some considered Protoss to be unbeatable and unpredictable. But players learned. Very rarely do these timing attacks succeed anymore. MC was figured out. He is trying to adapt and play macro-oriented styles, but is way behind. I think you can really compare MC to Jinro. Jinro was really way ahead of many Terrans and had success with new builds during 'his time', but after his styles were figured out, he could not really keep up. He's relearning too. Jinro and MC are in the same clump of progamers who need to refine their style.
I agree with Wolf on this actually, this explains so many things. I still hope MC does good, if you guys don't have watched the korean ladder still MC is played really high in GM.
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I think MC needs one or two months where he doesn't fly around the world to play in tournaments and has other stuff concerning him, he just needs a good amount of consecutive, solid practice hours/days/weeks.
Once he has time to adapt to or create new styles, I'm sure we'll see him again as one of the masters of the protoss race. MC has solid mechanics, game sense and a "good brain" as he himself put it. He'll be fine.
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You guys are all fools -_- MC is out because most protosses are getting absolutely dominated in the Korean scene atleast pre patch... Anyone who states it's because timing attacks don't work anymore as the reason for MC's slump is completely wrong... MC plays plenty of macro games and dominates the foreign scene like it's nobody's business. Just watch him stream, you know just how good and talented this guy is and I would bet my entire life savings that he's going to win atleast one of the foreign tournaments he's entering next month.
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^^also, wolf is wrong.... Monster played extremely well and did not play terribly like he stated...
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
On September 27 2011 00:23 Flowjo wrote:
^^also, wolf is wrong.... Monster played extremely well and did not play terribly like he stated...
Where does Wolf say Monster played terrible? He just calls him a mediocre zerg who got a bit lucky in the qualifiers. In fact, he doesn't even mention Monster's performance against MC. Please actually read before making a comment on it.
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" He lost to Monster, who is a mediocre Zerg who got into Code A through a somewhat lucky run through the qualifiers."
yea, I completely misread what wolf stated.....okay I used the word "terrible" sorry, but the point is still the same.... Monster played very well and I feel like if MC was up against a diff Zerg/Player, he might be in up and down this season
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=269279¤tpage=41#811
On September 26 2011 20:21 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 20:18 kratos-23 wrote:On September 26 2011 20:16 Wildsound wrote:
Sage is actually off the hook. My mate laughed at me over a month ago when I said this guy was better than MC. Who's laughing now. mc won like 10 tournamens, sage none. so i guess mc is indeed better. That's not how you judge who is better... There's no Protoss who is even close to as succesful as MC, however. MC just needs some time to practice again, his schedule has been grueling last few months.
Apparently MC hasn't had enough time to practice.
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On September 27 2011 01:49 StarVe wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=269279¤tpage=41#811Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 20:21 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On September 26 2011 20:18 kratos-23 wrote:On September 26 2011 20:16 Wildsound wrote:
Sage is actually off the hook. My mate laughed at me over a month ago when I said this guy was better than MC. Who's laughing now. mc won like 10 tournamens, sage none. so i guess mc is indeed better. That's not how you judge who is better... There's no Protoss who is even close to as succesful as MC, however. MC just needs some time to practice again, his schedule has been grueling last few months. Apparently MC hasn't had enough time to practice.
Maybe I don't have all the facts straight but didn't he take time off after he lost to a Terran in the NASL finals? During that time he was suppoesdly gosu training to roll through the foreign scene again.
His loss to monster isn't one that is fixed by training more. It's a confidence issue.
What's entertaining is that right now people are trying to rewrite his legacy to justify consequence of a 2time champion and toss star falling into code B. Somewhere in this people forgot his "perfect" macro statement and his macro in the terminus game in the NASL finals.
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Northern Ireland26763 Posts
Anybody also figure that a LOT of maps are insanely difficult to play on as a Protoss? I feel this is an area that often isn't mentioned. Protoss 2 base timing attacks are figured out pretty much at the highest level, so we're entering a phase where we need 3 base eco to compete at the highest level.
There are an insane amount of maps where taking a 3rd as Protoss is nigh-on impossible.
Zerg complained (rightly) that maps with short rush distance or close spawn were massively Terran favoured. Terran rightly raise the point that massive macro maps favour Zerg to an extent. Why do Protoss not complain more about how the map pools affect us?
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Have you heard the story of pope John XVII Translator? rumor has it, when he saw ogsmc's forcefields against julyzerg in the gsl finals, he had his own eyes gouged out because he knew he would never see anything so beautiful again.
anyway, I made some fanart for ogsmc:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/oiJiT.jpg)
I know he is still the best sc2 player in the world... even if he doesnt have the results atm it's so obvious if you look at his play.
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On September 26 2011 23:58 StarVe wrote:
I think MC needs one or two months where he doesn't fly around the world to play in tournaments and has other stuff concerning him, he just needs a good amount of consecutive, solid practice hours/days/weeks.
Once he has time to adapt to or create new styles, I'm sure we'll see him again as one of the masters of the protoss race. MC has solid mechanics, game sense and a "good brain" as he himself put it. He'll be fine.
yeah I agree, i think that too. MC needs to stop attending so many foreign tournaments and really sit down and revise his playstyle. I think that he has the potential to come back with a vengeance
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On September 27 2011 02:40 Ubertron wrote:
Anybody also figure that a LOT of maps are insanely difficult to play on as a Protoss? I feel this is an area that often isn't mentioned. Protoss 2 base timing attacks are figured out pretty much at the highest level, so we're entering a phase where we need 3 base eco to compete at the highest level.
There are an insane amount of maps where taking a 3rd as Protoss is nigh-on impossible.
Zerg complained (rightly) that maps with short rush distance or close spawn were massively Terran favoured. Terran rightly raise the point that massive macro maps favour Zerg to an extent. Why do Protoss not complain more about how the map pools affect us?
Oh Oh, I think so too. Thing is that what would qualify as a Protoss favoured map? Many ledges and Cliffs where they can Blink and walk their Colossus? Dunno what would make maps more P favoured.
Gosh SC2 is still long time away from being figured out.
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On September 27 2011 02:15 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2011 01:49 StarVe wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=269279¤tpage=41#811On September 26 2011 20:21 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On September 26 2011 20:18 kratos-23 wrote:On September 26 2011 20:16 Wildsound wrote:
Sage is actually off the hook. My mate laughed at me over a month ago when I said this guy was better than MC. Who's laughing now. mc won like 10 tournamens, sage none. so i guess mc is indeed better. That's not how you judge who is better... There's no Protoss who is even close to as succesful as MC, however. MC just needs some time to practice again, his schedule has been grueling last few months. Apparently MC hasn't had enough time to practice. Maybe I don't have all the facts straight but didn't he take time off after he lost to a Terran in the NASL finals? During that time he was suppoesdly gosu training to roll through the foreign scene again.
Honestly, I don't know but I trust Jinro to know MC's schedule better than we do.
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What Wolf wrote there is retarded. Overall, MC is by far the most powerful 'straight up' Protoss player there is at the moment. For whatever reasons, he didn't have much success lately (one could argue whether it's imbalance, outdated styles, bad luck, or a combination of all three), but to claim that he 'cant keep up' with any of the 'newer' P's that managed to win 2-3 series in code A for a given season (ie Puzzle, Sage, Hero, not to take away anything from them but yea..) is just stupid.
As much as I appreciate great multitasking and well played harass in games, the 'new style of PvZ' as shown by Sage and Hero is completely shut down by 1-2 extra spine crawlers at expansions. We can start talking about them being comparable to MC after they actually, you know, accomplish something more than a few random wins over the course of several weeks.
I'm going to stick to my opinion that MC is still the best Protoss out there, and I sure as hell am going to remain his biggest fan.
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Show nested quote +On September 27 2011 11:39 Zombie_Velociraptor wrote:
What Wolf wrote there is retarded. Overall, MC is by far the most powerful 'straight up' Protoss player there is at the moment. For whatever reasons, he didn't have much success lately (one could argue whether it's imbalance, outdated styles, bad luck, or a combination of all three), but to claim that he 'cant keep up' with any of the 'newer' P's that managed to win 2-3 series in code A for a given season (ie Puzzle, Sage, Hero, not to take away anything from them but yea..) is just stupid.
As much as I appreciate great multitasking and well played harass in games, the 'new style of PvZ' as shown by Sage and Hero is completely shut down by 1-2 extra spine crawlers at expansions. We can start talking about them being comparable to MC after they actually, you know, accomplish something more than a few random wins over the course of several weeks.
I'm going to stick to my opinion that MC is still the best Protoss out there, and I sure as hell am going to remain his biggest fan.
I desperately want to compare MC to Boxer because Wolf is partly correct. If you ever watched Boxer reps circa 01-03, you could see that he was almost unparalleled in TvZ and had amazing TvT but, however, his TvP was consisted mostly of technical attacks: Tank drops, timing attacks, etc.. He won, but you could hardly call his play dominating.
Now to MC:
MC's PvT may have originally been fairly technical in GSL3, but he has become really solid in that match up. Unfortunately, like many Protoss, he caught the short end of the TvP stick. His PvP is really great as shown in his matches vs Huk, Inca, and Mana even though he did lose to HongUn (quite embarrassingly). But his PvZ has always been arrays of timings, and when he led the sentry revolution in the match-up. We'll see how well his post-patch PvZ works out.
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On September 27 2011 00:22 Flowjo wrote:
You guys are all fools -_- MC is out because most protosses are getting absolutely dominated in the Korean scene atleast pre patch... Anyone who states it's because timing attacks don't work anymore as the reason for MC's slump is completely wrong... MC plays plenty of macro games and dominates the foreign scene like it's nobody's business. Just watch him stream, you know just how good and talented this guy is and I would bet my entire life savings that he's going to win atleast one of the foreign tournaments he's entering next month.
finally somebody with the same opinion as me MC is getting dominated because PROTOSS are getting dominated terran i have said it from day 1 when i first started playing that they are way to OP from medivacs to the ghosts to there buildings, theres a reason why there are so many terrans in the gsl and it isnt because there good, its because there race is just overpowered but dont get me wrong MVP MMA MKP are very good players i just believe terran is to op at the moment.
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On September 27 2011 11:39 Zombie_Velociraptor wrote:
What Wolf wrote there is retarded. Overall, MC is by far the most powerful 'straight up' Protoss player there is at the moment. For whatever reasons, he didn't have much success lately (one could argue whether it's imbalance, outdated styles, bad luck, or a combination of all three), but to claim that he 'cant keep up' with any of the 'newer' P's that managed to win 2-3 series in code A for a given season (ie Puzzle, Sage, Hero, not to take away anything from them but yea..) is just stupid.
As much as I appreciate great multitasking and well played harass in games, the 'new style of PvZ' as shown by Sage and Hero is completely shut down by 1-2 extra spine crawlers at expansions. We can start talking about them being comparable to MC after they actually, you know, accomplish something more than a few random wins over the course of several weeks.
I'm going to stick to my opinion that MC is still the best Protoss out there, and I sure as hell am going to remain his biggest fan.
Of course he's still THE best protoss out there. Maybe he's still waiting for a player who will succeed him when he's gone? I mean, he's having so much burden on his shoulders as protoss president...
Anyways, KraBamaToss fighting!!!
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At least this place is starting to sound a little like a fanclub again. I'm gonna chime in here that I still think I've seen spectacles in MC's play that I've never seen from any other protoss - and I'm a huge fan of a good few of those other protosses. This man had magic in his veins. It's easy to start framing MC in the dismal frame of his very small number of recent comparitively lacklustre games, and forget about the countless other jaw-dropping games MC has played in the course of his career.
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EPT
