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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
On May 04 2015 23:19 Gorsameth wrote:
I'm more confused by what Cersie is doing.
Sending the Tyrell to Bravos with the Kingsguard has me thinking she wants him killed? The guy is an idiot so he is no threat on the council and he sure isnt capable of actually negotiating with the Iron Bank. Is she just trying to pointlessly antagonize the Tyrell's as revenge on Margery playing Tommen?
Arming the Sparrows looks like a power play by giving her an army of her own but why on earth does the High Sparrow agree to it? If he is the religious fanatic he pretends to be then surely the incest charges make Cersie someone he would never ally with?
I don't get what her end-game is.
I think Cersei is afraid of losing influence against Margaery and just seeks short-term power quickly. She sends Mace Tyrell away to weaken the Tyrells and so she can run the government alone. Only the two maesters remain, and as she remarks, the small council is still not small enough. Also, Mace will likely not be successful in negotiating better terms with the Iron bank, and may be removed from the council altogether upon his return. With Margaery gone as well, King's Landing is 100% Lannister territory for the time being. Raising an army is quite obviously a power play and further weakens House Tyrell. I just don't quite understand why the High Sparrow teams up with her like that. He seemed like a man of integrity and reason. What Cersei's end game is i don't know, I'm not even sure if she has one. It doesn't look like she's thinking long term. Cersei is ok at the Game, but she's no Littlefinger.
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On May 04 2015 03:15 Scorch wrote:
No. He only says "I'm taking you to the queen", which is why we're discussing in the first place.
no he doesn't he clearly says Dany.
Tyrion : You're going the wrong way, my sister is in westeros, westeros is west, we are heading east.
Jorah: I'm not taking you to your sister.
T: You said you were taking me to the queen
J: I am, Queen Danaerys Targaryen, shes the queen i serve.
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On May 05 2015 01:01 Nizaris wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2015 03:15 Scorch wrote:
No. He only says "I'm taking you to the queen", which is why we're discussing in the first place. no he doesn't he clearly says Dany. Tyrion : You're going the wrong way, my sister is in westeros, westeros is west, we are heading east. Jorah: I'm not taking you to your sister. T: You said you were taking me to the queen J: I am, Queen Danaerys Targaryen, shes the queen i serve.
Yet note that when the discussion was taking place we were talking about the previous episode. Jorah said "I'm taking you to the queen" when he initially took Tyrion captive when the latter was taking a piss.
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On May 05 2015 01:03 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2015 01:01 Nizaris wrote:On May 04 2015 03:15 Scorch wrote:
No. He only says "I'm taking you to the queen", which is why we're discussing in the first place. no he doesn't he clearly says Dany. Tyrion : You're going the wrong way, my sister is in westeros, westeros is west, we are heading east. Jorah: I'm not taking you to your sister. T: You said you were taking me to the queen J: I am, Queen Danaerys Targaryen, shes the queen i serve. Yet note that when the discussion was taking place we were talking about the previous episode. Jorah said "I'm taking you to the queen" when he initially took Tyrion captive when the latter was taking a piss.
oh right 
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On May 04 2015 22:38 Shock710 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2015 22:04 Velr wrote:
2 guys go "even" in a 2 vs 20 (or something like that).
"Guys are supposed to be badasses, how could they not ezpz kill all of them."
Are you for real? First of all its fiction theres god damn dragons in the show cant there be a bunch of legendary fighters?, and theres was already a comparsion in the show, where 3 of them took on an entire cities guards we didnt question that (not in this thread we didnt) they're meant to be good in the story beyond good. It was one of the best fighters ever, one of the best fighters in an army bred to fight and kill, + idk like ~5 of those same fighters vs a bunch of dudes whos visibility should definitely be limited with small daggers and no armor. So far we have no clue who these randoms i guess if they explain their hired assassins or something that could explain something but they definitely didnt look like anything but a mob to me the only coordination they showed was then they were 8v2 unsullied and surrounded them lock their arms down and then stabbed them.
This show is not the Matrix. A good fighter has shown skill a few times by being able to win 1v1s, and surviving 1v3s is really fucking impressive (as IRL). The 3 sneaking into the city didn't kill a city's worth of guards, they killed about a dozen, with the element of surprise no less. Then the city's slaves rebelled and helped them take the rest of it. Barristan's performance is one of the most impressive combat displays we've seen so far. He's an old dude with no armor and one weapon that's shitty in cramped quarters (though not as bad as the Unsullied's spears) and he took on a dozen guys solo.
The Unsullied couldn't really phalanx because they didn't have enough guys to really go shoulder to shoulder, and even if they had, the superior numbers of fanatical opponents with close range weapons means they would have gotten overwhelmed just the same.
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Bariston got caught without his armor. He's a knight, he's trained his whole life for fighting in armor, so he's not invincible without it. Its been a couple weeks since I watched the episode but the guys they were fighting went toe to toe with the unsullied so they were a serious threat and he took many of them down with him.
I sincerely hope he's not dead or done yet though, as we've only got to see him swing his sword this one time.
(Edit: Yeah, pretty much what the guy above me said  )
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I think they are both dead or dying and Daenarys will only have daario at her side, which may lead to her accepting Jorah back?
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NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO BARRY YOU CANT DIE NOOOOO 
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I would expect both Grey worm and Selmy to survive.
Selmy because we are specifically shown Grey Worm preventing his throat from being cut and Grey Worm because he would just be replaced by another random unsullied commander with minimal character development. Dont really see the point of that.
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Someone remind me why the Unsullied are running around with longspears in this city of narrow corridors. If they all had a short sword or something as a sidearm, they'd not get so owned by nonprofessional guerilla fighters.
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I really don't see the point of grey worm dying, as no other unsullied has character development. As of Selmy, well he can be replaced as a consultant by tyrion. My guess is, grey worm lives, selmy dies
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On May 05 2015 02:18 sumsaR wrote:
Someone remind me why the Unsullied are running around with longspears in this city of narrow corridors. If they all had a short sword or something as a sidearm, they'd not get so owned by nonprofessional guerilla fighters.
I would assume the reason is that they trained with that particular weapon all their lives as Unsullied. So it's "be great with one weapon instead of being kinda good with two".
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Well judging by next weeks preview
+ Show Spoiler +Ser barristan selmy is dead (really anticlimatic to show it in the preview) and greyworm probably made it.
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On May 05 2015 02:40 Erinyes wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2015 02:18 sumsaR wrote:
Someone remind me why the Unsullied are running around with longspears in this city of narrow corridors. If they all had a short sword or something as a sidearm, they'd not get so owned by nonprofessional guerilla fighters. I would assume the reason is that they trained with that particular weapon all their lives as Unsullied. So it's "be great with one weapon instead of being kinda good with two".
They're obviously not that great with that weapon in Mereen, though.
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
more of a stupid idea of daenerys to have the Unsullied patrol the city when their greatest strength is arguably a field battle, where they can lock shields and actually keep formation to abuse their range. BUt then again she probably has no other reliable force to keep order in the city
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On May 04 2015 23:43 Scorch wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2015 23:19 Gorsameth wrote:
I'm more confused by what Cersie is doing.
Sending the Tyrell to Bravos with the Kingsguard has me thinking she wants him killed? The guy is an idiot so he is no threat on the council and he sure isnt capable of actually negotiating with the Iron Bank. Is she just trying to pointlessly antagonize the Tyrell's as revenge on Margery playing Tommen?
Arming the Sparrows looks like a power play by giving her an army of her own but why on earth does the High Sparrow agree to it? If he is the religious fanatic he pretends to be then surely the incest charges make Cersie someone he would never ally with?
I don't get what her end-game is.
I think Cersei is afraid of losing influence against Margaery and just seeks short-term power quickly. She sends Mace Tyrell away to weaken the Tyrells and so she can run the government alone. Only the two maesters remain, and as she remarks, the small council is still not small enough. Also, Mace will likely not be successful in negotiating better terms with the Iron bank, and may be removed from the council altogether upon his return. With Margaery gone as well, King's Landing is 100% Lannister territory for the time being. Raising an army is quite obviously a power play and further weakens House Tyrell. I just don't quite understand why the High Sparrow teams up with her like that. He seemed like a man of integrity and reason. What Cersei's end game is i don't know, I'm not even sure if she has one. It doesn't look like she's thinking long term. Cersei is ok at the Game, but she's no Littlefinger.
Agreed I think she just sowed the seeds for hers and Tommens death. Pissing off both Littlefinger and Olenna who are both better at the game then her. Sending an incompetent to negotiate with the Bank will align the money and hopefully Arya and the assassins after her son. Creating a standing army that she has no control over just to be able to tell Tommen that she can't free Loras. Tommen looking powerless on the steps of the sept in the eyes of the people making them believe power resides somewhere else just like in Varys' riddle. Her short term thinking had her giving up all the legs her family had to stand on politically, economically, and militarily in one fell swoop.
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On May 05 2015 03:06 ShiaoPi wrote:
more of a stupid idea of daenerys to have the Unsullied patrol the city when their greatest strength is arguably a field battle, where they can lock shields and actually keep formation to abuse their range. BUt then again she probably has no other reliable force to keep order in the city
The biggest problem with the unsullied is their shields. It shits on the realistic effectiveness of formation. Any army with half a brain would just hack out their knees and lower. Their lower body is essentially defenseless to an enemy line with spears.
Even spartan shields had a significantly larger surface area. Their spears are too short too. And their armor is shitty. Unsullied don't make sense as an elite fighting group (tactically, equipment, or body mass).
The smart thing for the Unsullied to do (where grey worm was wounded) would of been to immediately fall back into the hall they came from. Posted where they went in to see if they followed and kill them 1 by 1 if they come out. Not sure if strategic retreat is in the Unsullied vocabulary though.
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The fact that of the 3 daughters of oberyn, 2 of them were called by name twice while the name of the last one was never mentioned (unless i missed something), kinda makes me suspicious one of them will not be around for very long.
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People thinking they will survive? I just cant believe it, this is GoT ... but stay positive.
Also 1337
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On May 05 2015 03:56 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2015 03:06 ShiaoPi wrote:
more of a stupid idea of daenerys to have the Unsullied patrol the city when their greatest strength is arguably a field battle, where they can lock shields and actually keep formation to abuse their range. BUt then again she probably has no other reliable force to keep order in the city The biggest problem with the unsullied is their shields. It shits on the realistic effectiveness of formation. Any army with half a brain would just hack out their knees and lower. Their lower body is essentially defenseless to an enemy line with spears. Even spartan shields had a significantly larger surface area. Their spears are too short too. And their armor is shitty. Unsullied don't make sense as an elite fighting group (tactically, equipment, or body mass). The smart thing for the Unsullied to do (where grey worm was wounded) would of been to immediately fall back into the hall they came from. Posted where they went in to see if they followed and kill them 1 by 1 if they come out. Not sure if strategic retreat is in the Unsullied vocabulary though.
Your point on maneuver is probably correct. I'm guessing urban combat isn't part of their combat training however.
As for armor/shields/spearlength I kinda take all GoT armor with a serious grain of salt. Technology in their world allows for light plate armor, such as we saw in the joust, or as the Kingsguards wear, or some of the random soldiers. But lots of people wear much weaker and shittier armor that ought to belong to an earlier historical period. And the actual specifics of design are often bizarre. The helmets are particular offenders (almost none really protect the face or neck), and leg armor is often notably weak. Northerners tend to have exceptionally bad equipment, and you're like, okay, they're poor and barbaric, and then you see their shields, which would be extraordinarily expensive to mass-produce to to the decorative wolf.
I just assume it's all to be taken as metaphor; the unsullied are like they are because they're halfway between the Dothraki and the Westerosi in armor preferences, despite the fact that their formation suggests they should be armored like Hoplites, with big shields and lances. There's also a suggestion of Alexander with the small shields and spears; a shorter macedonian sarissa could be as small as 4m, which is not a lot longer than the spears the Unsullied use in the show.
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EPT
