EPTOn September 29 2013 20:45 Rob-Zero wrote:
See, the manga goes on for about 10 years or so by now. And what Kishi did in Naruto and a lot of Shipuuden was really clever, but you have to work such things out, have to think about that a lot. Plus the fact that the charakters have to get stronger. i think it is just human that at one point you have less ideas how to come up with such clever tactics. Especially when you have to make one manga per week. If i think about that Kishi did a really really good job. Even though there are some quite dumb jutsus (Meteroites f.e.) he keeps me extremely entertainend and still comes up with some sneaky things. The Manga is not as good as it was, but still very good. The best for me by far, even though that is debatable.
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On September 29 2013 13:15 BigFan wrote:
ya, originally, he did a great job with it. Even the guy who can't die can still be beaten. I think he should've continued with OP characters but gave them all weaknesses instead of having OP abilities and no weaknesses. It's like having a ht who can storm indefinitely lol(without the slow speed and no attack of their XD).
Not disagreeing with you but I feel like he could've done a much better job. Some of his akatsuki members were really well done with their weaknesses and all then he turned a new leaf(pun intended). The new villains can get tougher but give them a weakness! If I recall correctly, Shikamaru was the one who defeated Hidan even though 'he couldn't die' lol. Either way, keep OP characters in but make it possible to defeat them with teamwork like it was before rasenshuriken came into the picture.
On September 29 2013 07:12 erin[go]bragh wrote:
Don't be facetious. I was obviously referring to kekkei genkai. The Naruto universe is full of characters who rely heavily on their bloodlines, whether its dojutsu or unique nature transformations. By comparison Minato's fighting style revolved around things that had no genetic prerequisites; just hard word and dedication.
And what brings you to think that he's "most likely a straight down inheritor" of the SotSP? Because the tailed beasts think his son is the reincarnation? The Uchiha and the Senjus are of course the closest inheritors of his genes, but even in the event the Namikaze clan is a Senju offshoot (though I haven't seen evidence of this?), Minato was never really shown to posses their attributes.
What I'm getting at here is that he is a self made man. No one ever said "Oh shit, the Namikazes are coming!" But they sure as hell said "Oh shit, Minato is coming!"
It's actually kind of funny because originally I thought he handled the "op jutsu" thing pretty well. You had certain abilities that were extremely OP, but had huge detrimental side effects. Amaterasu is another example of an absolutely OP technique that was limited in it's use because it literally made you go blind. Even Rasenshuriken in its original iteration was a double edged sword because it would eventually damage the chakra points in Naruto's hands to the point of being useless.
This was a cool place to be in because characters had their trump cards to escape bleak situations, but you couldn't just spam them willy nilly. But then of course things like EMS and Sage mode threw those reservations out the window.
On September 29 2013 06:47 h41fgod wrote:
Yeah, saying that Minato has no genetic advantages is just weird. Being most likely a straight down inheritor of the sage of the six paths and all. Yeah, the Namikaze clan is a direct offshoot of the Senjus. You couldnt have more of an advantage if you got to pick. Or Naruto and Sasuke had a baby.
On September 27 2013 10:34 erin[go]bragh wrote:
I will agree, and say that the handling of the characters' power is my biggest gripe with this manga. I feel like Naruto's biggest strength, the lack of "Super Saiyans", has been squandered as of late. By that I mean, the second Super Saiyans were introduced in DBZ, every single character without Saiyan blood became useless, and relegated to filler/comic relief. Naruto largely avoided this. While powerful bloodline traits exist, they "spread the wealth" so to speak in the form of kekkei genkai, and one was never really shown to be objectively better than another.
Even then, none of these were needed to be a strong character. Minato is one of the better examples of someone who achieved top tier status without any notable genetic advantages.
It was always fun to see a weaker character defeat stronger one through tactics or clever use of abilities, but the manga eventually crossed a sort of "power level event horizon" where this was no longer possible.
Virtually every member of Akatsuki was a genuinely threatening and powerful villain with flaws and believable ways to defeated. But when enemies are immune to entire schools of techniques, can create armies of Susano'o, and drop meteors out of the sky, 99% of characters are rendered impotent. And any attempt to show them otherwise would break any remaining suspension of disbelief.
Not to mention Naruto's quest to become Hokage is now just a running gag. He is literally stronger than any of the current Kage at this point.
I will agree, and say that the handling of the characters' power is my biggest gripe with this manga. I feel like Naruto's biggest strength, the lack of "Super Saiyans", has been squandered as of late. By that I mean, the second Super Saiyans were introduced in DBZ, every single character without Saiyan blood became useless, and relegated to filler/comic relief. Naruto largely avoided this. While powerful bloodline traits exist, they "spread the wealth" so to speak in the form of kekkei genkai, and one was never really shown to be objectively better than another.
Even then, none of these were needed to be a strong character. Minato is one of the better examples of someone who achieved top tier status without any notable genetic advantages.
It was always fun to see a weaker character defeat stronger one through tactics or clever use of abilities, but the manga eventually crossed a sort of "power level event horizon" where this was no longer possible.
Virtually every member of Akatsuki was a genuinely threatening and powerful villain with flaws and believable ways to defeated. But when enemies are immune to entire schools of techniques, can create armies of Susano'o, and drop meteors out of the sky, 99% of characters are rendered impotent. And any attempt to show them otherwise would break any remaining suspension of disbelief.
Not to mention Naruto's quest to become Hokage is now just a running gag. He is literally stronger than any of the current Kage at this point.
Yeah, saying that Minato has no genetic advantages is just weird. Being most likely a straight down inheritor of the sage of the six paths and all. Yeah, the Namikaze clan is a direct offshoot of the Senjus. You couldnt have more of an advantage if you got to pick. Or Naruto and Sasuke had a baby.
Don't be facetious. I was obviously referring to kekkei genkai. The Naruto universe is full of characters who rely heavily on their bloodlines, whether its dojutsu or unique nature transformations. By comparison Minato's fighting style revolved around things that had no genetic prerequisites; just hard word and dedication.
And what brings you to think that he's "most likely a straight down inheritor" of the SotSP? Because the tailed beasts think his son is the reincarnation? The Uchiha and the Senjus are of course the closest inheritors of his genes, but even in the event the Namikaze clan is a Senju offshoot (though I haven't seen evidence of this?), Minato was never really shown to posses their attributes.
What I'm getting at here is that he is a self made man. No one ever said "Oh shit, the Namikazes are coming!" But they sure as hell said "Oh shit, Minato is coming!"
On September 29 2013 06:40 BigFan wrote:
If that's the case and I don't disagree, it was mostly Kishi's fault for making the characters more OP as the story went on. I mean ya, the story became more exciting when the characters became really powerful but then they also became really clever to the point where cleverness doesn't work anymore since they would be able to tell that something was going to happen. That doesn't take into account the fact that some characters can't die(forgot name) rofl.
On September 29 2013 06:22 Mataza wrote:
But Kakashi was out of Chakra after killing one heart, having only killed 1 third of Kakuzu.
The manga basically went "Cleverness isn't enough anymore, need a bigger kamehameha now"
That's why I brought that exact fight up. It was a turning point.
But Kakashi was out of Chakra after killing one heart, having only killed 1 third of Kakuzu.
The manga basically went "Cleverness isn't enough anymore, need a bigger kamehameha now"
That's why I brought that exact fight up. It was a turning point.
If that's the case and I don't disagree, it was mostly Kishi's fault for making the characters more OP as the story went on. I mean ya, the story became more exciting when the characters became really powerful but then they also became really clever to the point where cleverness doesn't work anymore since they would be able to tell that something was going to happen. That doesn't take into account the fact that some characters can't die(forgot name) rofl.
It's actually kind of funny because originally I thought he handled the "op jutsu" thing pretty well. You had certain abilities that were extremely OP, but had huge detrimental side effects. Amaterasu is another example of an absolutely OP technique that was limited in it's use because it literally made you go blind. Even Rasenshuriken in its original iteration was a double edged sword because it would eventually damage the chakra points in Naruto's hands to the point of being useless.
This was a cool place to be in because characters had their trump cards to escape bleak situations, but you couldn't just spam them willy nilly. But then of course things like EMS and Sage mode threw those reservations out the window.
ya, originally, he did a great job with it. Even the guy who can't die can still be beaten. I think he should've continued with OP characters but gave them all weaknesses instead of having OP abilities and no weaknesses. It's like having a ht who can storm indefinitely lol(without the slow speed and no attack of their XD).
On September 29 2013 12:39 Forikorder wrote:
Yeah, saying that Minato has no genetic advantages is just weird. Being most likely a straight down inheritor of the sage of the six paths and all. Yeah, the Namikaze clan is a direct offshoot of the Senjus. You couldnt have more of an advantage if you got to pick. Or Naruto and Sasuke had a baby.
if i remember right Kushina was a descendant of the S06P, Minato doesnt seemt to ahve any history worth mentioning
besides look at Tsunade, by this generation that bloods way too thin to be worth mentioning
If that's the case and I don't disagree, it was mostly Kishi's fault for making the characters more OP as the story went on. I mean ya, the story became more exciting when the characters became really powerful but then they also became really clever to the point where cleverness doesn't work anymore since they would be able to tell that something was going to happen. That doesn't take into account the fact that some characters can't die(forgot name) rofl.
kinda hard not to do this in a battle manga, the new villain has to be tougher then the last one and the hero has to get stronger to beat him so over time eventually its all about strength and it becomes harder to keep side characters as strong as the main one
Yeah, saying that Minato has no genetic advantages is just weird. Being most likely a straight down inheritor of the sage of the six paths and all. Yeah, the Namikaze clan is a direct offshoot of the Senjus. You couldnt have more of an advantage if you got to pick. Or Naruto and Sasuke had a baby.
if i remember right Kushina was a descendant of the S06P, Minato doesnt seemt to ahve any history worth mentioning
besides look at Tsunade, by this generation that bloods way too thin to be worth mentioning
If that's the case and I don't disagree, it was mostly Kishi's fault for making the characters more OP as the story went on. I mean ya, the story became more exciting when the characters became really powerful but then they also became really clever to the point where cleverness doesn't work anymore since they would be able to tell that something was going to happen. That doesn't take into account the fact that some characters can't die(forgot name) rofl.
kinda hard not to do this in a battle manga, the new villain has to be tougher then the last one and the hero has to get stronger to beat him so over time eventually its all about strength and it becomes harder to keep side characters as strong as the main one
Not disagreeing with you but I feel like he could've done a much better job. Some of his akatsuki members were really well done with their weaknesses and all then he turned a new leaf(pun intended). The new villains can get tougher but give them a weakness! If I recall correctly, Shikamaru was the one who defeated Hidan even though 'he couldn't die' lol. Either way, keep OP characters in but make it possible to defeat them with teamwork like it was before rasenshuriken came into the picture.
See, the manga goes on for about 10 years or so by now. And what Kishi did in Naruto and a lot of Shipuuden was really clever, but you have to work such things out, have to think about that a lot. Plus the fact that the charakters have to get stronger. i think it is just human that at one point you have less ideas how to come up with such clever tactics. Especially when you have to make one manga per week. If i think about that Kishi did a really really good job. Even though there are some quite dumb jutsus (Meteroites f.e.) he keeps me extremely entertainend and still comes up with some sneaky things. The Manga is not as good as it was, but still very good. The best for me by far, even though that is debatable.
I personally didn't think the Meteorite jutsu was too bad. It showed the difference between everyone who we thought were strong or OP throughout the manga and the legends we have heard time and time again throughout the story.
