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On January 05 2013 20:36 Kyrillion wrote:Show nested quote +Or, to put it another way, the Ring amplifies existing power, it doesn't add a flat power bonus. Is it amplification as well when it gives the carrier invisibility ? Hobbits don't have any power whatsoever that could be amplified. As for orcs piling to block the entry, that's exactly what I had in mind. Of course, it's all about numbers, and I don't think Tolkien ever bothered to do the math, but it's not that obvious Sauron could achieve that. If I remember well it takes about two days to Frodo and Sam to reach Mount Doom after they last see an Orc camp ? Granted, Orcs run faster, and they wouldn't be exhausted, but if the Eagles approach Mordor at the right angle it would take at most, twenty, thirty minutes to reach their goal ? Also, if they send one Eagle and Sauron has no Nazgul available, his first decision wouldn't be to order everyone to rush to Mount I-regret-I-left-it-unguarded. When Sauron learns of enemies entering Mordor, he feels very concerned, as evidenced by the talks between the Orcs that Sam eavesdrops. Yet the last thing that comes to his mind apparently is to send a dozen of Orcs to watch the entry of Mt Doom just for the few weeks remaining before his total victory. I must say, that's one thing in the book that puzzles me (not that it's that kind of matter that gives LOTR its great qualities).
Also I think it was completely out of the question for Sauron that anyone would want to destroy the ring. He was as much addicted to the ring and the quest for power that it would help him achieve that he focused too much on how his plans would succeed that he ignored a very obvious weakness (cough, the unguarded mountain, cough).
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On January 06 2013 02:00 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2013 20:36 Kyrillion wrote:
Is it amplification as well when it gives the carrier invisibility ? Hobbits don't have any power whatsoever that could be amplified. They're sneaky to the point of it actually being a supernatural gift. I mean, did you see how Bilbo slipped away from those goons in that massive cave system where everyone was captured? That's not normal.
The one ring also gives invisibility to humans though.
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On January 06 2013 02:22 Undrass wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2013 02:00 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:On January 05 2013 20:36 Kyrillion wrote:
Is it amplification as well when it gives the carrier invisibility ? Hobbits don't have any power whatsoever that could be amplified. They're sneaky to the point of it actually being a supernatural gift. I mean, did you see how Bilbo slipped away from those goons in that massive cave system where everyone was captured? That's not normal. The one ring also gives invisibility to humans though.
True, I don't remeber what happened in the books, but in the first LotR movie, Isildur gets cloak just before he dies.
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On January 06 2013 01:38 Grumbels wrote:I found a link: It mentions some quotes by Tolkien: Show nested quote +The most critical reader of all, myself, now finds many defects, minor and major, but being unfortunately under no obligation either to review the book or to write it again, he will pass over these in silence. Show nested quote +The Eagles are a dangerous 'machine'. I have used them sparingly, and that is the absolute limit of their credibility or usefulness. The alighting of a Great Eagle of the Misty Mountains in the Shire is absurd; it also makes the later capture of Gandalf by Saruman incredible, and spoils the account of his escape. The article goes into a lot of detail and I think it clearly shows this is a plot hole. I honestly don't mind, it doesn't discredit the books or anything. I just want Tolkien fans to admit its existence instead of coming up with absurd rationalizations.
My point, however, is that we aren't told of any such powers. My question is not what fan-fiction we can add to the story to rule out the "eagles" plan; my question is what Tolkien has written which rules it out.
That's the key issue in his analysis for me. There are so many things that are left unexplained in the books that if you assume that beings only had the powers that were explicitly mentioned and everything you take into account has to have been written in the books, you will probally find a lot of plotholes.
It's a question of arguing whether it's impossible that the eagles were a good plan or arguing that it's possible that the eagles were not the best plan. There's is nothing in the books that decreates the "eagles plan" would be doomed to fail, that it's impossible that it would work. Perhaps Tolkien had a reason, but didn't mention, perhaps it's just a mistake on his part. But there are arguments to say that it may not be such a clear cut superior plan. On basically every argument he uses "should", "probally", etc, so he also makes assumptions.
The strongest argument, is his own words, is that the plan is never mentioned as a possibility. He admits that, if someone had brought up the eagles they could easily have used one of those arguments to discredit the plan. So he admits the possibility that they would not work.
A lot of people talk about the eagles like it could be a simple pick up at The Shire and drop off at Mount Doom, and then people give reasons why it's not so simple and reasons why that could have not worked. Noone can say for certain it would or would not work, because we lack information.
I personally think you can find bigger issues when you compare The Hobbit to the other books, for obvious reasons. If all you want is to find plotholes and inconsistencies, that shouldn't be too hard. There are also statements in his writtings and originally unpublished papers that are clearly not consistent, his son had to choose which version to publish and even fill some gaps, so it's obvious his work isn't flawless, it's what happens when you keep making changes to the history.
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Russian Federation748 Posts
Contradicting himself or changing a character's (cough Galadriel cough) history is not the same as overlooking a part of the plot.
The fact Mount Doom was left completely unguarded is more of a plothole than the eagles to me. Hell, Sauron could even have sealed off the entry if he wanted, provided he has no use for a mystical forge anymore (there was no one working there when Frodo came to visit, after all).
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Why doesn't Gandalf blast the orcs of the wall at minas tirith? Why doesn't he cast fire down about the seige weapons? It is because like the eagles he is their to help the people of middle earth. They help people help themselves is a good expression for it. For example why give a poor man food when you can teach him to hunt/fish?
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Guys, this is a story. Not exact science. Not everything has to make sense for the story to be enjoyable.
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On January 06 2013 05:46 Kyrillion wrote:
Contradicting himself or changing a character's (cough Galadriel cough) history is not the same as overlooking a part of the plot.
The fact Mount Doom was left completely unguarded is more of a plothole than the eagles to me. Hell, Sauron could even have sealed off the entry if he wanted, provided he has no use for a mystical forge anymore (there was no one working there when Frodo came to visit, after all).
There is that line in one of the movies (not sure if its in the books or not though), where Gandalf says something like "And that we should seek to destroy it has not entered his wildest dreams". Maybe he knew Saurons mind better than he leads on.
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Russian Federation748 Posts
Except if he's about to starve, in which case you give him the food.
What does he intend to teach them ? I don't see a marvelous ability that would be comparable to fishing and would get them rid of Sauron in no time. Yes, they could be much more reasonable and take arms instead of sinking into despair, but the fact remains Sauron is too strong for them. In the end, they won through Gandalf's help (including stopping the Balrog, reviving Theoden, etc.). He did not advise them to read up on the ring in Gondor's ancient libraries and taught them the language (for some reason I'm assuming they're in Quenya ), he did the reading for them. And they won by a very, very narrow margin. Gandalf wasn't even sure Frodo was still alive and trudging his way through Mordor, so I would rather believe he used his powers to a great extent because the situation deserved to be a bit more balanced.
There is that line in one of the movies (not sure if its in the books or not though), where Gandalf says something like "And that we should seek to destroy it has not entered his wildest dreams". Maybe he knew Saurons mind better than he leads on.
That may be in the books, but then how would Gandalf know the latest trends in Sauron's thinking ?
Not mentioning that, if that line in the books, it's a great plus to the Eagle theory.
What I'm thinking right now is, poor Tolkien must be mumbling : " Not only did they do a poor adaptation of one of my favourite books (as it seems reading comments, I haven't seen it), now it gave them the idea to look for every plothole in the other one".
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the eagles could have been corrupted by the ring thus it would not be wise to give them the burden
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Saw this movie last night... It just felt like a wannabe Lord of the Rings to me... Just the same shit all over again..
I'd give it a 6 out of 10.. cos it was still entertaining.. But not recommended to spend money on IMHO...
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A plot hole isn't not doing something that may or may not be the best plan, it's something occurring (or not occurring) that contradicts the knowledge we've been given on the world or it's people.
Anyone saying not doing X plan over another is a plot hole has no idea what a plot hole actually is.
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United States7483 Posts
On January 06 2013 05:46 Kyrillion wrote:
Contradicting himself or changing a character's (cough Galadriel cough) history is not the same as overlooking a part of the plot.
The fact Mount Doom was left completely unguarded is more of a plothole than the eagles to me. Hell, Sauron could even have sealed off the entry if he wanted, provided he has no use for a mystical forge anymore (there was no one working there when Frodo came to visit, after all).
Sauron has character flaws too, he's not a genius, just a villain. His primary flaw is pride, and his inability to think like his enemies do. The idea that anyone would destroy the ring when they could instead use it themselves to gain power (especially since the ring tries to force that on them) just doesn't occur to him. Thus, in his mind, there is no reason to guard mount doom. This is readily explained in the books, just not the film.
Add in the fact that Aragorn, the person Sauron views as his greatest threat in middle earth, is right in front of him challenging him, and it's easy to see why Sauron marches his entire army out to fight.
Sauron is not exactly a great military mind or general, but rather a very powerful maiar (basically a demi-god, or spirit), who happens to want power and draws a lot of dark servants to him.
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Russian Federation748 Posts
I don't remember the books well enough, but all the same, we never had an inner view and description of Sauron's mind. Anyway, whatever Sauron thinks of elfs' and men's purity of heart, he should start wondering why he hasn't heard of the Ring again. If it's been in the possession of his enemies for months and has already convinced them they're powerful enough to overthrow Sauron and made them go completely corrupt, it would manifest somehow.
A plot hole isn't not doing something that may or may not be the best plan, it's something occurring (or not occurring) that contradicts the knowledge we've been given on the world or it's people.
Anyone saying not doing X plan over another is a plot hole has no idea what a plot hole actually is.
Yes but if there are a lot a characters who have been established as quite intelligent and having knowledge of certain facts, it can seem weird if not one of them comes up with an idea that wasn't particularly far-reaching. If they have the idea but dismiss it as stupid, the writer can just add a few lines to mention it.
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so bad kritik so bad people talk here, if you like middle earth and this kind of movies this is a god damn 10/10 ... i liked part 1 more then i liked part 1 of lord of the rings ...
all like "oh its not exactly like ..." a movie is like a book a STORY that need to be telled, and if 2 different people tell you a story its a little bit different, jaeh no galadriel in book ? well perhaps just because not named doestn meen it cant be part of the STORY
so if you not one of the "its not like ..." then its the best movie of the year
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Ian Mckellen looks so old and frail 
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On January 06 2013 06:55 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2013 05:46 Kyrillion wrote:
Contradicting himself or changing a character's (cough Galadriel cough) history is not the same as overlooking a part of the plot.
The fact Mount Doom was left completely unguarded is more of a plothole than the eagles to me. Hell, Sauron could even have sealed off the entry if he wanted, provided he has no use for a mystical forge anymore (there was no one working there when Frodo came to visit, after all). Sauron has character flaws too, he's not a genius, just a villain. His primary flaw is pride, and his inability to think like his enemies do. The idea that anyone would destroy the ring when they could instead use it themselves to gain power (especially since the ring tries to force that on them) just doesn't occur to him. Thus, in his mind, there is no reason to guard mount doom. This is readily explained in the books, just not the film. Add in the fact that Aragorn, the person Sauron views as his greatest threat in middle earth, is right in front of him challenging him, and it's easy to see why Sauron marches his entire army out to fight. Sauron is not exactly a great military mind or general, but rather a very powerful maiar (basically a demi-god, or spirit), who happens to want power and draws a lot of dark servants to him.
He literally could have had a few orcs guard the volcano and it would prevented the destruction of the ring. Sauron simply has to account for this, especially as the ring is not just a powerful artifact coveted by both sides, it's also Sauron's lifeline to this world. He's apparently so preoccupied with fantasies of using the ring and trauma over his defeat by the hands of Isildur that he doesn't think of the possibility that his enemies would seek to put winning the war over using the ring for selfish gain. Furthermore, it's not obvious that Aragorn would make the same mistake as Isildur, since he has the very obvious historical example to remind him of the smarter course of action. And if they do possess the ring, then why would the elves - a somewhat equal partner in the the fight against Sauron - allow the 'weak' humans to use it? Would destroying it not be a better compromise?
All I can say that Sauron would have made a bad starcraft player, his map awareness is very bad and he keeps staring at the fights instead of returning back to his base to do stuff there.
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On January 06 2013 07:31 TheMooseHeed wrote:Ian Mckellen looks so old and frail
He is 73 years old, you know.
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On January 06 2013 07:50 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2013 06:55 Whitewing wrote:On January 06 2013 05:46 Kyrillion wrote:
Contradicting himself or changing a character's (cough Galadriel cough) history is not the same as overlooking a part of the plot.
The fact Mount Doom was left completely unguarded is more of a plothole than the eagles to me. Hell, Sauron could even have sealed off the entry if he wanted, provided he has no use for a mystical forge anymore (there was no one working there when Frodo came to visit, after all). Sauron has character flaws too, he's not a genius, just a villain. His primary flaw is pride, and his inability to think like his enemies do. The idea that anyone would destroy the ring when they could instead use it themselves to gain power (especially since the ring tries to force that on them) just doesn't occur to him. Thus, in his mind, there is no reason to guard mount doom. This is readily explained in the books, just not the film. Add in the fact that Aragorn, the person Sauron views as his greatest threat in middle earth, is right in front of him challenging him, and it's easy to see why Sauron marches his entire army out to fight. Sauron is not exactly a great military mind or general, but rather a very powerful maiar (basically a demi-god, or spirit), who happens to want power and draws a lot of dark servants to him. He literally could have a few orcs guard the volcano and it would prevented the destruction of the ring. Sauron simply has to account for this, especially as the ring is not just a powerful artifact coveted by both sides, it's also Sauron's lifeline to this world. He's apparently so preoccupied with fantasies of using the ring and trauma over his defeat by the hands of Isildur that he doesn't think of the possibility that his enemies would seek to put winning the war over using the ring for selfish gain. Furthermore, it's not obvious that Aragorn would make the same mistake as Isildur, since he has the very obvious historical example to remind him of the smarter course of things. And of course if they do possess the ring, then why would the elves - a somewhat equal partner in the the fight against Sauron - allow the 'weak' humans to use it? All I can say that Sauron would have made a bad starcraft player, his map awareness is very bad and he keeps staring at the fights instead of returning back to his base to do stuff there.
Some characters in Tolkien's world are very one-dimensional. Whether that is a flaw of his writing or not is another issue, but it feels pretty clear that Sauron would not expect anyone not abusing the power of the rings from what you can find in the books. You can even have an argument the philosophical reasons why that happens and the whole message behinds the books, but if we are arguing what made sense inside Tolkien's world, no, he did not foresee the destruction of the ring. And humans have been making the same mistake time after time anyway, they have basically always been easily corruptible by power, for him there is no reason to expect such a change of heart.
Sauron is not a human afterall, he is basically a fallen angel, with diferent flaws and diferent reasonings and humans. But even humans often lack a little depth, a little "grey" on his work.
We also can't tell if Aragorn would resist the ring, he resists the temptation to steal it from Frodo, but what Sauron didn't expect was that the person holding it would be able to resist it and destroy it, he underestimated the hobbits, not Aragorn. The elves also would use it if they had a chance, if they stopped humans from using it, they would have been corrupted in turn. The only resilient race seems to be the hobbits. And Tom Bombadill, if that counts.
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I just saw the movie in HFR, can say that I didn't really feel anything special watching it in 3d except that everything feels so dark due to the glasses. Also, was the movie supposed to be a complete rip off from the lotr first movie?
LOTR - BILBO
shire - shire
attacked while traveling - attacked while traveling
rivendell - rivendell
towards the mountains - towards the mountains
fight goblins - fight goblins
get attacked after leaving the cave - get attacked after leaving the cave
was this the whole point?
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EPT
