SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and Fire Click Here for the spoiler-free thread.
On June 10 2013 20:21 Redox wrote: Other than that, I am surprised people are not bitching about the biggest plot change so far. Shae is confirmed for truly loving Tyrion, and not the common whore she was in the books. So most probably she will not betray Tyrion, there will be no scene with Tyrion killing her etc. It will all be very different.
It's not better than the original, but it can work and it's nowhere near as much of a big deal as the character assassination of Stannis.
Holy shit, I am so much disagreeing with this I am literally getting angry. I think I will read the Davos chapters of the first half of Storm again because I cant believe my perception would be this wrong. I really feal like the show absolutely mirrors my perception of Stannis.
On June 10 2013 12:55 GGTeMpLaR wrote: "I am king. Wants do not enter into it. I have a duty to my daughter. To the realm. Even to Robert. He loved me but little, I know, yet he was my brother. The Lannister woman gave him horns and made a motley fool of him. She may have murdered him as well, as she murdered Jon Arryn and Ned Stark. For such crimes there must be Justice."
Fucking ruined.
They ruined both Stannis and Renly. Two of the most bad ass characters, both made into jokes. They must have had it out for the baratheons. Though, too give them some credit, I think Robbert is one of the best portrayed characters in the series
Pfft. There's plenty of characters that have been flattened out, if only due to the limitations of TV and the limited amount of time they have to show things. Loras for instance isn't quite so distraught with Renly's death after all! :p
It's to be expected, and honestly, I don't think the Stannis interpretation was "everything is ruined, fuck you HBO" level. Well, not quite. There's still plenty of room for interpretation, at least (wasn't at all overt in the finale, but there plenty to be analyzed), and I suspect Stannis' characterization will improve in coming seasons (just like the Season 3 finale will highlight the shitshow that Dany's actions have caused).
I wouldn't expect that they'll improve his characterization much. Both of the showrunners view Stannis as nothing but a puritanical asshole obsessed with becoming king and reshaping Westeros in his image. They've said outright he'd be a horrible king who would ruin everything. Taking that into account, it seems likely to me that they'll continue to emphasize all of his worse traits while ignoring his better ones.
Did they really say that? :\
What the fuck where.
A couple of videos.
Fast forward to around 4:25
Those are actually really depressing...
I feel like D&D didn't even read the books after watching those.
"Lord Seaworth is a man of humble birth, but he reminded me of my duty, when all I could think of was my rights. I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne." Stannis pointed north. "There is where I'll find the enemy I was born to fight."
Nailed it.. -facepalm-
I feel like D&D know something about Stannis' character in the future, like him becoming the Night King or some shit like that and having a not very happy ending and that's why they're doing this shit. But even then, just because you know something readers don't about a character doesn't mean you get to completely assassinate his character every chance you get. If Stannis is supposed to fall it would be far more potent to follow the freaking books and have us fall in love with him as a misunderstood underdog.
I feel like D&D just glazed over the books and were impacted by all the wrong scenes and took meaning from all the wrong places.
No one wants Stannis to be the good guy. We just want him to be portrayed right. Stephane Dillaine is a fucking amazing actor who has what it takes to pull it off, the writing is just not there though.
On June 10 2013 20:21 Redox wrote: Other than that, I am surprised people are not bitching about the biggest plot change so far. Shae is confirmed for truly loving Tyrion, and not the common whore she was in the books. So most probably she will not betray Tyrion, there will be no scene with Tyrion killing her etc. It will all be very different.
If she truly loves Tyrion, wouldn't she have followed Varys' advice and left? The show may reveal that she has been Tywin's bitch from the get go.
That's an interesting thought I did not consider. Doesnt work well with how protective she was of Sansa and a few other things though. Like she would not be happy about Tyrion not sleeping with Sansa.
On June 10 2013 12:55 GGTeMpLaR wrote: "I am king. Wants do not enter into it. I have a duty to my daughter. To the realm. Even to Robert. He loved me but little, I know, yet he was my brother. The Lannister woman gave him horns and made a motley fool of him. She may have murdered him as well, as she murdered Jon Arryn and Ned Stark. For such crimes there must be Justice."
Fucking ruined.
They ruined both Stannis and Renly. Two of the most bad ass characters, both made into jokes. They must have had it out for the baratheons. Though, too give them some credit, I think Robbert is one of the best portrayed characters in the series
Pfft. There's plenty of characters that have been flattened out, if only due to the limitations of TV and the limited amount of time they have to show things. Loras for instance isn't quite so distraught with Renly's death after all! :p
It's to be expected, and honestly, I don't think the Stannis interpretation was "everything is ruined, fuck you HBO" level. Well, not quite. There's still plenty of room for interpretation, at least (wasn't at all overt in the finale, but there plenty to be analyzed), and I suspect Stannis' characterization will improve in coming seasons (just like the Season 3 finale will highlight the shitshow that Dany's actions have caused).
I wouldn't expect that they'll improve his characterization much. Both of the showrunners view Stannis as nothing but a puritanical asshole obsessed with becoming king and reshaping Westeros in his image. They've said outright he'd be a horrible king who would ruin everything. Taking that into account, it seems likely to me that they'll continue to emphasize all of his worse traits while ignoring his better ones.
I feel like D&D didn't even read the books after watching those.
"Lord Seaworth is a man of humble birth, but he reminded me of my duty, when all I could think of was my rights. I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne." Stannis pointed north. "There is where I'll find the enemy I was born to fight."
Nailed it.. -facepalm-
I feel like D&D know something about Stannis' character in the future, like him becoming the Night King or some shit like that and having a not very happy ending and that's why they're doing this shit. But even then, just because you know something readers don't about a character doesn't mean you get to completely assassinate his character every chance you get. If Stannis is supposed to fall it would be far more potent to follow the freaking books and have us fall in love with him as a misunderstood underdog.
I feel like D&D just glazed over the books and were impacted by all the wrong scenes and took meaning from all the wrong places.
No one wants Stannis to be the good guy. We just want him to be portrayed right. Stephane Dillaine is a fucking amazing actor who has what it takes to pull it off, the writing is just not there though.
So far I only read that its somehow wrong. But I dont get what is wrong. Someone explain.
On June 10 2013 20:21 Redox wrote: Other than that, I am surprised people are not bitching about the biggest plot change so far. Shae is confirmed for truly loving Tyrion, and not the common whore she was in the books. So most probably she will not betray Tyrion, there will be no scene with Tyrion killing her etc. It will all be very different.
If she truly loves Tyrion, wouldn't she have followed Varys' advice and left? The show may reveal that she has been Tywin's bitch from the get go.
That's an interesting thought I did not consider. Doesnt work well with how protective she was of Sansa and a few other things though.
True, but hardly anything makes sense with Shae anymore
On June 10 2013 20:21 Redox wrote: Other than that, I am surprised people are not bitching about the biggest plot change so far. Shae is confirmed for truly loving Tyrion, and not the common whore she was in the books. So most probably she will not betray Tyrion, there will be no scene with Tyrion killing her etc. It will all be very different.
If she truly loves Tyrion, wouldn't she have followed Varys' advice and left? The show may reveal that she has been Tywin's bitch from the get go.
That's an interesting thought I did not consider. Doesnt work well with how protective she was of Sansa and a few other things though.
True, but hardly anything makes sense with Shae anymore
If she is not the book Shae there was nothing that didnt make sense. What would make no sense if she would somehow transform into book Shae now and do what she did. So far she has been very consistent in being honest with Tyrion etc.
Wow, forget just being the worst finale for a season so far, but that was just generally a nothing episode. Like maybe one of the worst in that regard.
Been watching it with my gf the entire time (a non book reader) and I thought it might have just been me, but she was like "...what am I looking forward to next season?" I don't have an answer to build on.
Like s1 and s2 end with the feeling that shit's about to go down. This one ends with the feeling of...well I don't know. There was just nothing powerful in that entire episode.
On June 10 2013 20:21 Redox wrote: Other than that, I am surprised people are not bitching about the biggest plot change so far. Shae is confirmed for truly loving Tyrion, and not the common whore she was in the books. So most probably she will not betray Tyrion, there will be no scene with Tyrion killing her etc. It will all be very different.
It's not better than the original, but it can work and it's nowhere near as much of a big deal as the character assassination of Stannis.
Holy shit, I am so much disagreeing with this I am literally getting angry. I think I will read the Davos chapters of the first half of Storm again because I cant believe my perception would be this wrong. I really feal like the show absolutely mirrors my perception of Stannis.
Go re-read the chapters. Stannis is in no way Melisandre's lapdog. Many many times she and the other fanatics try to persuade Stannis to sacrifice the boy but he doesn't. He is also an outspoken atheist who always made japes about being surrounding by fanatics. Always being sceptical and conflicted about the Lord of Light and its powers.
And only after the THIRD usurper died Davos sent the boy away, and then persuaded Stannis himself of his duty - by in-depth discussion, of his duty, Davos said that by killing the boy Stannis would be in breach of the duty of the King to protect his subjects.
In the show you get none of that, absolutely nothing. Instead only one usurper falls and already Stannis wants the boy killed. All Stannis does is puppet what Mel says, which is a spit in the face of his book counterpart. This is how it went down in the show:
Stannis: Davos, I sentence u to die Davos: no we must go north Stannis: no u die Mel: no hes right Stannis: ok u live
This is extremely patronizing. Why shit all over such a pivotal scene instead of using the wealth of GOOD dialogue and material from the books?
Nor in the book does he ever get angry like he does in that scene. If anything he just gets perpetually more aggravated and grinds his teeth. In a rage, ordering Davos to death is the complete opposite of Stannis. Davos says it when he had his fingers cut off all Stannis had was an iron look of justice.
On June 10 2013 20:21 Redox wrote: Other than that, I am surprised people are not bitching about the biggest plot change so far. Shae is confirmed for truly loving Tyrion, and not the common whore she was in the books. So most probably she will not betray Tyrion, there will be no scene with Tyrion killing her etc. It will all be very different.
It's not better than the original, but it can work and it's nowhere near as much of a big deal as the character assassination of Stannis.
Holy shit, I am so much disagreeing with this I am literally getting angry. I think I will read the Davos chapters of the first half of Storm again because I cant believe my perception would be this wrong. I really feal like the show absolutely mirrors my perception of Stannis.
Nor in the book does he ever get angry like he does in that scene. If anything he just gets perpetually more aggravated and grinds his teeth. In a rage, ordering Davos to death is the complete opposite of Stannis. Davos says it when he had his fingers cut off all Stannis had was an iron look of justice.
I will re-read. This here is surely wrong though. There was no rage at all when Stannis sentenced Davos. It was the same iron look. And it was a well deserved sentence, it was defiant treason by Davos.
On June 10 2013 13:32 Yhamm wrote: --Shae & Varys. That was a weird scene. True love? I never saw Varys being so wrong
Wrong? He was absolutely right. TV Shae really does love TV Tyrion. Pretending that we're going to get exactly the same ending for Shae in the show as it is in the books is just silly, and y'all should stop trying to figure out how TV Shae is going to end up exactly like Book Shae. That's not what will happen. It will be different. And - hopefully - it will make as much sense on TV as it made in the books.
The writers know exactly where they're going with all of that, and we don't. We just know how it happened in the books, and we see that the book ending makes absolutely no sense given what we've seen in the show so far. So that means that a) the writers are drooling idiots that write themselves in a corner, or b) the writers significantly changed the story to make it work anyhow.
Call me crazy, but I consider the writers of the show to be quite competent. The show will deviate more and more from the books with every season, to the point where directly comparing the books to the show just doesn't make any sense any more. By now, TV Shae is a vastly different character from Book Shae. TV Shae genuinely loves Tyrion, Book Shae did not. The sooner we accept that the better.
On June 10 2013 12:55 GGTeMpLaR wrote: "I am king. Wants do not enter into it. I have a duty to my daughter. To the realm. Even to Robert. He loved me but little, I know, yet he was my brother. The Lannister woman gave him horns and made a motley fool of him. She may have murdered him as well, as she murdered Jon Arryn and Ned Stark. For such crimes there must be Justice."
Fucking ruined.
They ruined both Stannis and Renly. Two of the most bad ass characters, both made into jokes. They must have had it out for the baratheons. Though, too give them some credit, I think Robbert is one of the best portrayed characters in the series
Pfft. There's plenty of characters that have been flattened out, if only due to the limitations of TV and the limited amount of time they have to show things. Loras for instance isn't quite so distraught with Renly's death after all! :p
It's to be expected, and honestly, I don't think the Stannis interpretation was "everything is ruined, fuck you HBO" level. Well, not quite. There's still plenty of room for interpretation, at least (wasn't at all overt in the finale, but there plenty to be analyzed), and I suspect Stannis' characterization will improve in coming seasons (just like the Season 3 finale will highlight the shitshow that Dany's actions have caused).
I wouldn't expect that they'll improve his characterization much. Both of the showrunners view Stannis as nothing but a puritanical asshole obsessed with becoming king and reshaping Westeros in his image. They've said outright he'd be a horrible king who would ruin everything. Taking that into account, it seems likely to me that they'll continue to emphasize all of his worse traits while ignoring his better ones.
I feel like D&D didn't even read the books after watching those.
"Lord Seaworth is a man of humble birth, but he reminded me of my duty, when all I could think of was my rights. I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne." Stannis pointed north. "There is where I'll find the enemy I was born to fight."
Nailed it.. -facepalm-
I feel like D&D know something about Stannis' character in the future, like him becoming the Night King or some shit like that and having a not very happy ending and that's why they're doing this shit. But even then, just because you know something readers don't about a character doesn't mean you get to completely assassinate his character every chance you get. If Stannis is supposed to fall it would be far more potent to follow the freaking books and have us fall in love with him as a misunderstood underdog.
I feel like D&D just glazed over the books and were impacted by all the wrong scenes and took meaning from all the wrong places.
No one wants Stannis to be the good guy. We just want him to be portrayed right. Stephane Dillaine is a fucking amazing actor who has what it takes to pull it off, the writing is just not there though.
So far I only read that its somehow wrong. But I dont get what is wrong. Someone explain.
I'm quoting from the book here, just after Davos was taken out of prison (even before the leech sacrifice). That entire chapter shows how wrong the show portrayal is, but I'll just quote the bit where Stannis talks about Edric Storm:
"Give me the boy, Your Grace. It is the surer way. The better way. Give me the boy and I shall wake the stone dragon." "I have told you, no." "He is only one baseborn boy, against all the boys of Westeros, and all the girls aswell. Against all the children that might ever be born, in all the kingdoms of the world." "The boy is innocent." "The boy defiled your marriage bed, else you would surely have sons of your own. He shamed you." "Robert did that. Not the boy. My daughter has grown fond of him. And he is mine own blood." "Your brother's blood," Melisandre said. "A king's blood. Only a king's blood can wake the stone dragon." Stannis ground his teeth. "I'll hear no more of this. The dragons are gone. The Targaryens tried to bring them back half a dozen times. And made fools of themselves, or corpses. Patchface is the only fool we need on this godforsaken rock. You have the leeches. Do your work."
In the next Davos chapter, after they hear of the Red Wedding and Balon's death, Stannis is still extremely skeptical of the Red God's power.
"Two is not three. Kings can count as well as smugglers."
Davos saves Edric Storm not because of the sacrifice to gain the throne, but the sacrifice to become Azor Ahai.
And later in the next chapter, Stannis still struggles with the prospect of killing the boy:
"I know his name. Spare me your reproaches. I like this no more than you do, but my duty is to the realm. My duty . . ." He turned back to Melisandre. "You swear there is no other way? Swear it on your life, for I promise, you shall die by the inches if you lie."
And after finding out Davos saved Edric:
"Your Grace, you made me swear to give you honest counsel and swift obedience, to defend your realm against your foes, to protect your people. Is not Edric Storm one of your people? One of those I swore to protect? I kept my oath. How could that be treason?"
Later on in ADWD Stannis reflects to Jon about how Davos was right.
Yeah that whole scene was bad for numerous reasons. I don;t like how that scene was in the show to begin with. In the book, untill you read the armies screaming "STANNIS! STANNIS!"you were unaware they ever even left for the north, right? I mean you knew Davos read the message from the Wall to Stannis, but that's all. Maybe i remember wrong.
I guess it was a decision they felt they needed to make for the show, it just seems like it's a waste of a good surprise for next season. Admittedly, the battle at the wall will come at the end of the season, and perhaps there will be more stuff they do in the show with Stannis beforehand just so audiences don't forget all about him.
It's amusing to see one half of the people complaining about the lack of cliffhangers and "things to look forward to", while the other half complains about revealing Season 4 plots that could have been kept secret to surprise people next season.
On June 10 2013 21:45 daemir wrote: Yup, Stannis is being done a great wrong in the show, I didn't like those parts one bit.
What's most annoying is that his portrayal in season 2 was for the most part quite accurate. He was the grumpy and taciturn but morally-centered Stannis that we all know and love. Season 3 really fucked him up.
I'm gonna throw something out there what is COMPLETELY change the Shae story. What if Shae does not betray Tyrion at all, she is not even in Tywins room. What if Tywin finds out, and doesn't kill her but she just disappears, Tyrion get angry kills Tywin at the PW, Where is Shae (and where is Tysha), Where do whores go?
I see this work somehow, or something close to this. Show watchers don't care about Tysha, she has no face.
On June 10 2013 22:47 Tiwo wrote: I'm gonna throw something out there what is COMPLETELY change the Shae story. What if Shae does not betray Tyrion at all, she is not even in Tywins room. What if Tywin finds out, and doesn't kill her but she just disappears, Tyrion get angry kills Tywin at the PW, Where is Shae (and where is Tysha), Where do whores go?
I see this work somehow, or something close to this. Show watchers don't care about Tysha, she has no face.
If the golden chain Tyrion gave Shae is a red herring I'm going to flip a shit.
On June 10 2013 22:47 Tiwo wrote: I'm gonna throw something out there what is COMPLETELY change the Shae story. What if Shae does not betray Tyrion at all, she is not even in Tywins room. What if Tywin finds out, and doesn't kill her but she just disappears, Tyrion get angry kills Tywin at the PW, Where is Shae (and where is Tysha), Where do whores go?
I see this work somehow, or something close to this. Show watchers don't care about Tysha, she has no face.
Calling it now.
Tywin is going to kill Shae with the chain and Tyrion is going to revenge kill Tywin.
On June 10 2013 22:47 Tiwo wrote: I'm gonna throw something out there what is COMPLETELY change the Shae story. What if Shae does not betray Tyrion at all, she is not even in Tywins room. What if Tywin finds out, and doesn't kill her but she just disappears, Tyrion get angry kills Tywin at the PW, Where is Shae (and where is Tysha), Where do whores go?
I see this work somehow, or something close to this. Show watchers don't care about Tysha, she has no face.
Calling it now.
Tywin is going to kill Shae with the chain and Tyrion is going to revenge kill Tywin.
Book it.
That would be really, really dumb. They've done some dumb shit to the show so far, but that I would legit stop watching if they fucked up Tyrion's arc like that.
EPT
