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Discussing the show and past episodes is fine. Do not put things that have happened in the TV series in spoilers. However, don't spoil things from the books that may happen in future episodes. Put book spoilers in spoiler tags with a CLEAR WARNING that it is from the book. |
On November 30 2011 02:02 Subversive wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 01:32 CrimsonLotus wrote:On November 29 2011 16:48 Subversive wrote:Oh and as a last point, what he did to Otis was not correct. He could have gotten the same outcome by sacrificing himself. And he didn't do it for Carl either - he did it because he didn't want to die. He's a selfish, self-serving character. There isn't a lot to like about him. [On a personal level I mean. Liking him as character in the show is fine, I do]. So, if you were presented with the choice of suffering a horrible death or sacrificing a total stranger (which himself caused you two to be in such a position), you're telling me that you would prefer to sacrifice yourself? You really underestimate the power of the will to survive. I'm not underestimating anything. The question isn't what I would do. The question was whether Shane should be lauded for his behaviour. I was simply pointing out he was acting out of self-interest, not some ulterior higher motive. And actually, no I wouldn't shoot someone in cold blood.
Another thing that pisses me off even more than Shane, is Andrea. She thinks that all of a sudden she is a badass. 2 episodes ago she couldn't hit a slowly swinging log, which any child could do, and now she's all gung ho about killing anything in front of her and following Shane wherever he goes. I would really love to see her die in the show.
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I can see defending Shane's actions as an example of survivalist instinct or something like that, and maybe most of us would have done the same, though I'd prefer to think not. Either way, killing another person in cold blood is wrong, that's a pretty basic tenant of human morality, and I don't see this as being different. The circumstances are unique, but there were other routes that could have been taken.
Explaining Shane's actions is one thing, excusing them is entirely another.
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On November 30 2011 04:43 GreEny K wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 02:02 Subversive wrote:On November 30 2011 01:32 CrimsonLotus wrote:On November 29 2011 16:48 Subversive wrote:Oh and as a last point, what he did to Otis was not correct. He could have gotten the same outcome by sacrificing himself. And he didn't do it for Carl either - he did it because he didn't want to die. He's a selfish, self-serving character. There isn't a lot to like about him. [On a personal level I mean. Liking him as character in the show is fine, I do]. So, if you were presented with the choice of suffering a horrible death or sacrificing a total stranger (which himself caused you two to be in such a position), you're telling me that you would prefer to sacrifice yourself? You really underestimate the power of the will to survive. I'm not underestimating anything. The question isn't what I would do. The question was whether Shane should be lauded for his behaviour. I was simply pointing out he was acting out of self-interest, not some ulterior higher motive. And actually, no I wouldn't shoot someone in cold blood. Another thing that pisses me off even more than Shane, is Andrea. She thinks that all of a sudden she is a badass. 2 episodes ago she couldn't hit a slowly swinging log, which any child could do, and now she's all gung ho about killing anything in front of her and following Shane wherever he goes. I would really love to see her die in the show.
signed. Shane is awesome though. Just awesome.
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I just wish Dale would've shot his ass. Would've been a great surprise and twist. no matter how venerable there comes a time when violence is a fair enough answer.
Dale is very perceptive. His vehicle serves as the watchtower, a fitting analogy of his character. I just don't expect him to do so well later, he is to good to stand by idly and do nothing, yet i doubt they have him besting shane.
Also, the little girls mama (carol) is one of my favorite characters. She has to be the most beaten up character on the show. Abused wife, lost husband, dead children, zombie stuff. She is perseverance. The world was likely hell for her before the zombies, yet she is not malcontent.
Why does everyone hate tdog?
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On November 30 2011 05:31 Rebel_lion wrote:
I just wish Dale would've shot his ass. Would've been a great surprise and twist. no matter how venerable there comes a time when violence is a fair enough answer.
Dale is very perceptive. His vehicle serves as the watchtower, a fitting analogy of his character. I just don't expect him to do so well later, he is to good to stand by idly and do nothing, yet i doubt they have him besting shane.
Also, the little girls mama (carol) is one of my favorite characters. She has to be the most beaten up character on the show. Abused wife, lost husband, dead children, zombie stuff. She is perseverance. The world was likely hell for her before the zombies, yet she is not malcontent.
Why does everyone hate tdog?
I don't think anyone really hates T-dog. But you can't expect people to favour or like someone who never gets air time. :/
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On November 30 2011 05:40 Termit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 05:31 Rebel_lion wrote:
I just wish Dale would've shot his ass. Would've been a great surprise and twist. no matter how venerable there comes a time when violence is a fair enough answer.
Dale is very perceptive. His vehicle serves as the watchtower, a fitting analogy of his character. I just don't expect him to do so well later, he is to good to stand by idly and do nothing, yet i doubt they have him besting shane.
Also, the little girls mama (carol) is one of my favorite characters. She has to be the most beaten up character on the show. Abused wife, lost husband, dead children, zombie stuff. She is perseverance. The world was likely hell for her before the zombies, yet she is not malcontent.
Why does everyone hate tdog? I don't think anyone really hates T-dog. But you can't expect people to favour or like someone who never gets air time. :/
I have a feeling that he is the next one to die off, or there will be a huge change in the show and he will take a bigger role.
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On November 30 2011 05:43 GreEny K wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 05:40 Termit wrote:On November 30 2011 05:31 Rebel_lion wrote:
I just wish Dale would've shot his ass. Would've been a great surprise and twist. no matter how venerable there comes a time when violence is a fair enough answer.
Dale is very perceptive. His vehicle serves as the watchtower, a fitting analogy of his character. I just don't expect him to do so well later, he is to good to stand by idly and do nothing, yet i doubt they have him besting shane.
Also, the little girls mama (carol) is one of my favorite characters. She has to be the most beaten up character on the show. Abused wife, lost husband, dead children, zombie stuff. She is perseverance. The world was likely hell for her before the zombies, yet she is not malcontent.
Why does everyone hate tdog? I don't think anyone really hates T-dog. But you can't expect people to favour or like someone who never gets air time. :/ I have a feeling that he is the next one to die off, or there will be a huge change in the show and he will take a bigger role.
I don't know if he will die off but I think someone will have to die off soon and if it is a more prominent character then one of the lesser characters will have to step up to fill that role. They could just be keeping him around for that purpose. Otherwise he is one of the biggest tokens I've ever seen.
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I don't think anyone really hates T-dog. But you can't expect people to favour or like someone who never gets air time. :/
I think it's hilarious that there is one reoccurring black guy on the show and his name is T-Dog. Stereotyping at its finest. I mean... really?
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On November 30 2011 05:47 Mash2 wrote:Show nested quote +
I don't think anyone really hates T-dog. But you can't expect people to favour or like someone who never gets air time. :/
I think it's hilarious that there is one reoccurring black guy on the show and his name is T-Dog. Stereotyping at its finest. I mean... really?
Well, that's just a nickname, I think his real name is Theodore? Or something like that.
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On November 30 2011 05:43 GreEny K wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 05:40 Termit wrote:On November 30 2011 05:31 Rebel_lion wrote:
I just wish Dale would've shot his ass. Would've been a great surprise and twist. no matter how venerable there comes a time when violence is a fair enough answer.
Dale is very perceptive. His vehicle serves as the watchtower, a fitting analogy of his character. I just don't expect him to do so well later, he is to good to stand by idly and do nothing, yet i doubt they have him besting shane.
Also, the little girls mama (carol) is one of my favorite characters. She has to be the most beaten up character on the show. Abused wife, lost husband, dead children, zombie stuff. She is perseverance. The world was likely hell for her before the zombies, yet she is not malcontent.
Why does everyone hate tdog? I don't think anyone really hates T-dog. But you can't expect people to favour or like someone who never gets air time. :/ I have a feeling that he is the next one to die off, or there will be a huge change in the show and he will take a bigger role.
I would hope for the later. It feels like he can contribute to the group in ways some others can't. I would also be kinda pissed off if they killed the character with least air time and lines in the whole show before we gets to know him. I doubt anyone would feel sad or relieved if he died, it all would feel like "meh". If someone like Dale died now, some people would at least be happy about it, some people may like him and feel sad about it.
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I think they're keeping T-Dog around until they reintroduce Merle. Unfortunately this makes him less the token black guy and more of the token black guy for the obvious racist to hate/revenge. I don't think he'll last long once Merle is back.
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I think Daryl is infected but doesn't completely turn into a zombie. He will be a hybrid capable of speaking in zombie tongue, gains zombie strength, immune to zombie bites (obviously), and later on marries the zombie wife of his dreams. Carol falls in love with him but is jealous of his zombie wife so she forces Daryl to bite her in an argument in order to turn herself into a zombie (making her more attractive to Daryl). Later that night, Daryl and his zombie trophy wife are having zombie sex, Carol walks in and says she is zombie pregnant. His zombie wife is zombie mad and bites his human wiener off. This is how Daryl dies.
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On November 30 2011 06:11 kikimama wrote:
I think Daryl is infected but doesn't completely turn into a zombie. He will be a hybrid capable of speaking in zombie tongue, gains zombie strength, immune to zombie bites (obviously), and later on marries the zombie wife of his dreams. Carol falls in love with him but is jealous of his zombie wife so she forces Daryl to bite her in an argument in order to turn herself into a zombie (making her more attractive to Daryl). Later that night, Daryl and his zombie trophy wife are having zombie sex, Carol walks in and says she is zombie pregnant. His zombie wife is zombie mad and bites his human wiener off. This is how Daryl dies.
But he talked about the Deer!
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2 months..... How am I going to live 
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Everyone just remember that before Shane shot Otis, he offered to stay behind and "hold them off" (die valiantly) while Otis escaped, so that Carl could get the medicine. Unfortunately for Otis, he was too noble, and refused to leave Shane behind. If they had stuck together, three people would have died. Shane offered to stay, be the one the got killed, but then he knew he would have to shoot Otis, so that at least two people would live. Shane is a fucking boss, and easily the best character in the show (despite his sometimes insane "LETS GO GIT 'EM" persona)
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On November 30 2011 07:19 Shaman.us wrote:
Everyone just remember that before Shane shot Otis, he offered to stay behind and "hold them off" (die valiantly) while Otis escaped, so that Carl could get the medicine. Unfortunately for Otis, he was too noble, and refused to leave Shane behind. If they had stuck together, three people would have died. Shane offered to stay, be the one the got killed, but then he knew he would have to shoot Otis, so that at least two people would live. Shane is a fucking boss, and easily the best character in the show (despite his sometimes insane "LETS GO GIT 'EM" persona)
So you shoot the guy who is risking his life to keep you alive... yes, fucking boss indeed.
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On November 30 2011 07:31 GreEny K wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 07:19 Shaman.us wrote:
Everyone just remember that before Shane shot Otis, he offered to stay behind and "hold them off" (die valiantly) while Otis escaped, so that Carl could get the medicine. Unfortunately for Otis, he was too noble, and refused to leave Shane behind. If they had stuck together, three people would have died. Shane offered to stay, be the one the got killed, but then he knew he would have to shoot Otis, so that at least two people would live. Shane is a fucking boss, and easily the best character in the show (despite his sometimes insane "LETS GO GIT 'EM" persona) So you shoot the guy who is risking his life to keep you alive... yes, fucking boss indeed.
Yes, because that guy's morality inhibits him from getting the job done. If Shane hadn't shot Otis and attempted to hold the zombies off himself, there was no guarantee that Otis wouldn't have tried to play the hero and fucked everything up trying to save him. Shane already offered to stay behind but Otis couldn't deal with that. I guess trying to escape with a fat man while you yourself are injured and failing, resulting in the death of a young boy is more "boss" way of handling that situation.
Shane is a bit of a dick, but he's not crazy. His decisions are fairly calculated, even opening the barn. His initial plan was to talk to Rick and then Hershel while armed, making it clear that they weren't leaving the farm. I still think he thought Rick would sort of have his back but when he saw Rick wrangling zombies, he flipped his shit. There was pretty much no threat in how he handled the issue there as well, He left the lock on the top of the barn door, no more than 2 zombies could have gotten out at a time, he honestly could have dealt with them all himself, maybe with a little help from Andrea.
I do like Shane's character, but I can see why some people don't. I think that the intention in the writing was to draw people to different view points in regards to survival. I'm leaning most towards Rick with a fair bit of understanding for Shane. I don't like nor agree with Dale's views, in such a scenario I would be ready to sacrifice some "humanity" and non-applicable "morality" to stay alive.
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When I say what Shane did to Otis was correct, I am not trying to elevate him to any standard of moral right or wrong. From a selfless morality, what he did was wrong. From a utilitarian morality (basically just the greatest good for the greatest number), there were two equally "right" options: let himself die, or make Otis die. The thing I'm applauding Shane for is that he at least took one of them. The fact is, if it were anyone but Shane, the third option would have likely been taken: don't sacrifice yourself and don't sacrifice the other, just try your best to survive. That would have futilely ended in both of them getting eaten and Carl (as far as they knew dieing). By the way, I'm not advocating utilitarianism, I'm just using it to illustrate how the options look from a pragmatist perspective, which is basically what Shane is. And from my point of view, it's just really hard to fault him for what he did. I mean no one wants to get eaten by zombies. That's a pretty fucking horrifying death.
When I watched the scene, I realized how quickly and without warning Shane kneecapped him. You gotta wonder maybe he had it in his head that Otis was thinking the exact same thing he was, and the one to survive would simply be the guy who shot first. Whether that's true or not, it's pretty clear that self preservation was a huge driving force for both of them. Turned out, Otis was not seeing the big picture, and when he got shot, all he could think about is how he had been betrayed. Otis even tried to pull Shane down with him, which is hard to fault as well tbh; self preservation is a powerful thing. Obviously, Otis didn't fully comprehend the situation and it would be unimaginable that he would sacrifice himself. So if Shane just kept on walking hoping both of them would make it, the worst thing possible probably would have happened, and all of them would have died, including Carl.
And with that, i leave you a cute yet relevant little picture, food for thought...
![[image loading]](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Pc9t9hkGYLs/TN7DPf-gMQI/AAAAAAAAAa0/3D04gnoGfGY/s1600/Trolley-Problem-B.jpg)
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EPT
