4 winners advance, losers are eliminated. [/] Playoffs [/] 8 teams: 4 winners of the Breakout and the Top 4 winners from Group Stage [/] Double-elimination bracket. [/] The first two rounds of the Lower bracket are Bo1, while the Grand Finals are Bo5. Others are Bo3.
Winner final is the game of power carry (ame maybe) vs hard support (ice3, jabz, nb). Mineski duo carry is weaker than LGD but Mineski support is stronger, lol
Secret out, Liquid and VP both in bo1 lower brackets and even if they make it through bo1 hell they face each other right after that. This seems like a wetdream for anyone still in there to grab a couple DPC points. Hell, LGD and Mineski already secured 675 each (225*3, right?) and one of them will be at + 1350 at the end of the day.
On April 06 2018 09:41 Toadesstern wrote: Secret out, Liquid and VP both in bo1 lower brackets and even if they make it through bo1 hell they face each other right after that. This seems like a wetdream for anyone still in there to grab a couple DPC points. Hell, LGD and Mineski already secured 675 each (225*3, right?) and one of them will be at + 1350 at the end of the day.
On the DPC points, correct. Winner of Winner's Final locks in 2nd place, which is double the current DPC take of the tournament so far. Winning today puts LGD in 6th place and Mineski in 4th.
A VG win would also move them into 4th place for the moment.
this wasnt just about vgs hg defense making it close
though the casters completely ignored it, they were constantly getting slightly more than vp shouldve given them. they shouldve been down 5k more going into the first hg push given the lineups
I just don't see how this is a game where Vici got brooded. They had a midlane batrider. If that's not enough to win vs a brood then VP might as well just firstpick brood and nothing would have changed. It's not getting an awful lot better and Eleven losing the lane is just not something that should happen.
On April 06 2018 12:01 Orome wrote: this wasnt just about vgs hg defense making it close
though the casters completely ignored it, they were constantly getting slightly more than vp shouldve given them. they shouldve been down 5k more going into the first hg push given the lineups
VG is pretty good at finding some farm when they're stuck back within their Tier 2s. Lots of practice, I assume?
On April 06 2018 12:06 Toadesstern wrote: I just don't see how this is a game where Vici got brooded. They had a midlane batrider. If that's not enough to win vs a brood then VP might as well just firstpick brood and nothing would have changed. It's not getting an awful lot better and Eleven losing the lane is just not something that should happen.
Bat loses to brood on the landing stage
Brood just runs away when he fireflies and broodlings eat bat alive without firefly .. Oil stacks do nothing to the brooflings
Dunno what games you play where bat wins against brood without help lol
On April 06 2018 12:06 Toadesstern wrote: I just don't see how this is a game where Vici got brooded. They had a midlane batrider. If that's not enough to win vs a brood then VP might as well just firstpick brood and nothing would have changed. It's not getting an awful lot better and Eleven losing the lane is just not something that should happen.
Bat loses to brood on the landing stage
Brood just runs away when he fireflies and broodlings eat bat alive without firefly .. Oil stacks do nothing to the brooflings
pretty sure you win if you skill flamebreak? At the very least you kill the broodlings
On April 06 2018 12:06 Toadesstern wrote: I just don't see how this is a game where Vici got brooded. They had a midlane batrider. If that's not enough to win vs a brood then VP might as well just firstpick brood and nothing would have changed. It's not getting an awful lot better and Eleven losing the lane is just not something that should happen.
The Batrider vs Brood match is deceptively hard for Bat. The primary issue is that depending on the enemy 4 (and even with AA, you can get turned on with a support TP) you can't go max Napalm to harass Brood and maintain lane equilibrium. Meanwhile Brood can force out Firefly without any repercussion, which means you're done in the lane until it's off CD and he can push into the tower.
On April 06 2018 12:06 Toadesstern wrote: I just don't see how this is a game where Vici got brooded. They had a midlane batrider. If that's not enough to win vs a brood then VP might as well just firstpick brood and nothing would have changed. It's not getting an awful lot better and Eleven losing the lane is just not something that should happen.
Bat loses to brood on the landing stage
Brood just runs away when he fireflies and broodlings eat bat alive without firefly .. Oil stacks do nothing to the brooflings
pretty sure you win if you skill flamebreak? At the very least you kill the broodlings
No, because Brood can dodge the projectile at range and you can't set up kill conditions without leveled-up Napalm stacks. He'll just heal up with the webs and dive back in. Additionally, you're crippling yourself when the laning stage ends.
On April 06 2018 12:06 Toadesstern wrote: I just don't see how this is a game where Vici got brooded. They had a midlane batrider. If that's not enough to win vs a brood then VP might as well just firstpick brood and nothing would have changed. It's not getting an awful lot better and Eleven losing the lane is just not something that should happen.
The Batrider vs Brood match is deceptively hard for Bat. The primary issue is that depending on the enemy 4, you can't go max Napalm to harass Brood and maintain lane equilibrium. Meanwhile Brood can force out Firefly without any repercussion, which means you're done in the lane until it's off CD and he can push into the tower.
On April 06 2018 12:06 Toadesstern wrote: I just don't see how this is a game where Vici got brooded. They had a midlane batrider. If that's not enough to win vs a brood then VP might as well just firstpick brood and nothing would have changed. It's not getting an awful lot better and Eleven losing the lane is just not something that should happen.
Bat loses to brood on the landing stage
Brood just runs away when he fireflies and broodlings eat bat alive without firefly .. Oil stacks do nothing to the brooflings
pretty sure you win if you skill flamebreak? At the very least you kill the broodlings
No, because Brood can dodge the projectile at range and you can't set up kill conditions without leveled-up Napalm stacks. He'll just heal up with the webs and dive back in. Additionally, you're crippling yourself when the laning stage ends.
you don't need to hit the brood. Goody said you can't kill the broodlings because they'll just run away. So we're not talking about some long range flamebreak but situations where the spiderlings are literally next to you and attacking you right now. You turn on firefly, you flamebreak and you get money.
The alternative, not leveling it at all is what happened in this game (and swindlez also criticized during the game): you pop firefly, broodlings just run away, you can't follow quickly enough and then you're without firefly for the next couple seconds and just die (or get pushed out of the lane).
On April 06 2018 12:06 Toadesstern wrote: I just don't see how this is a game where Vici got brooded. They had a midlane batrider. If that's not enough to win vs a brood then VP might as well just firstpick brood and nothing would have changed. It's not getting an awful lot better and Eleven losing the lane is just not something that should happen.
The Batrider vs Brood match is deceptively hard for Bat. The primary issue is that depending on the enemy 4, you can't go max Napalm to harass Brood and maintain lane equilibrium. Meanwhile Brood can force out Firefly without any repercussion, which means you're done in the lane until it's off CD and he can push into the tower.
On April 06 2018 12:11 Toadesstern wrote:
On April 06 2018 12:09 goody153 wrote:
On April 06 2018 12:06 Toadesstern wrote: I just don't see how this is a game where Vici got brooded. They had a midlane batrider. If that's not enough to win vs a brood then VP might as well just firstpick brood and nothing would have changed. It's not getting an awful lot better and Eleven losing the lane is just not something that should happen.
Bat loses to brood on the landing stage
Brood just runs away when he fireflies and broodlings eat bat alive without firefly .. Oil stacks do nothing to the brooflings
pretty sure you win if you skill flamebreak? At the very least you kill the broodlings
No, because Brood can dodge the projectile at range and you can't set up kill conditions without leveled-up Napalm stacks. He'll just heal up with the webs and dive back in. Additionally, you're crippling yourself when the laning stage ends.
you don't need to hit the brood. Goody said you can't kill the broodlings because they'll just run away. So we're not talking about some long range flamebreak but situations where the spiderlings are literally next to you and attacking you right now. You turn on firefly, you flamebreak and you get money.
The alternative, not leveling it at all is what happened in this game (and swindlez also criticized during the game): you pop firefly, broodlings just run away, you can't follow quickly enough and then you're without firefly for the next couple seconds and just die (or get pushed out of the lane).
Pro players won't fall for that and you're also upgrading flamebreak lol(nobody wants to upgrade that skill till later)
Even if that happens somehow you still take shit ton of damage as bat of brood suicides the broodlings and after that you are in a downtime doing nothing cause brood can just run into you
Have you seen fata bat vs matu brood ? It has nothing to do with matu being the better laner but just a really hard lane for fata
If you want a hero that doesn't get wrecked by brood landing stage then timber. Batrider is a deadlane
idk if you need to upgrade it but you certainly need at least 1 level or you're just giving up. Just one level certainly isn't something bad either, people just don't skill it because it's not a farming skill and bat's tend to need to farm neutrals.
I mean while not a statement on the 1v1 or how the lanes would go, Brood is literally the worst hero in the game vs Bat according to dotabuff. Which again, isn't a statement on the 1v1 situation but rather on the situation of the game overall (as well as generally random pubs) but come on.
If flamebreak is that strong, bat players would be leveling that up even in other matchups already.
What are you going to do when the brood player split up the broodlings into 2 groups so that they don't eat flamebreak all at once? Brood doesn't need many broodlings, he just need enough broodlings to tank tower hits so he can dive and chase you out of the lane.
On April 06 2018 12:27 babysimba wrote: If flamebreak is that strong, bat players would be leveling that up even in other matchups already.
What are you going to do when the brood player split up the broodlings into 2 groups so that they don't eat flamebreak all at once? Brood doesn't need many broodlings, he just need enough broodlings to tank tower hits so he can dive and chase you out of the lane.
well, let's just agree to disagree I guess. Swindlez literally said the same I said in here but maybe he's wrong as well
Dotabuff data doesn't even represent all data (just those who signed up). And brood vs bat doesn't happen cause nobody lanes batrider mid anymore
Flamebreak is a shit skill unless you upgrade it which would mean you don't upgrade firefly and oil(you're the worst batrider in the game that time if you die) lol. I don't think flamebreak even kills the broodlings cause most nukes don't actually kill broodlings who deal more damage than flamebreak
And that assumption is even assuming that bat is invincible and won't die to massive damage that brood can deal which is why he wins most midlane matchup
On April 06 2018 12:16 Toadesstern wrote: you don't need to hit the brood. Goody said you can't kill the broodlings because they'll just run away. So we're not talking about some long range flamebreak but situations where the spiderlings are literally next to you and attacking you right now. You turn on firefly, you flamebreak and you get money.
Spiderlings have 250 health and 50% magic resistance. They also gain regen from webs. The only way Bat can guarantee kills on Spiderlings is if he goes for something like 1/2/2. This is decent against the summons and horrible against Brood. It's also complete trash when he goes to rotate, so no Bat player worth his salt is going to sacrifice his jungle farm and gank potential for the chance to kill Spiderlings.
On April 06 2018 12:29 Toadesstern wrote: well, let's just agree to disagree I guess. Swindlez literally said the same I said in here but maybe he's wrong as well
No. Swindlezz said Eleven should've maxed Napalm instead of Firefly (which is the correct skill build) and avoided Tranquils.
Yeah most nukes don't kill spiderlings and that's assuming you start at level 5 so that you can kill them immediately. Which you don't start at level 5
On April 06 2018 12:32 goody153 wrote: Dotabuff data doesn't even represent all data (just those who signed up). And brood vs bat doesn't happen cause nobody lanes batrider mid anymore
Flamebreak is a shit skill unless you upgrade it which would mean you don't upgrade firefly and oil(you're the worst batrider in the game that time if you die) lol. I don't think flamebreak even kills the broodlings cause most nukes don't actually kill broodlings who deal more damage than flamebreak
And that assumption is even assuming that bat is invincible and won't die to massive damage that brood can deal which is why he wins most midlane matchup
Flamebreak has 25dps lv1 (Firefly has 10dps lv1 btw), and it upgrades to 30dps on lv2.... I don't think that's a skill I'd call "a shit skill unless you upgrade it". It's literally the opposite and a lv1 value-point...
On April 06 2018 12:35 polgas wrote: liquid draft looks weak
It's doable we have visage and uberlord to draw attention then miracle void to do stuff but it's certainly harder to execute and alot less flexible than TNC's straightforward draft.
On April 06 2018 12:32 goody153 wrote: Dotabuff data doesn't even represent all data (just those who signed up). And brood vs bat doesn't happen cause nobody lanes batrider mid anymore
Flamebreak is a shit skill unless you upgrade it which would mean you don't upgrade firefly and oil(you're the worst batrider in the game that time if you die) lol. I don't think flamebreak even kills the broodlings cause most nukes don't actually kill broodlings who deal more damage than flamebreak
And that assumption is even assuming that bat is invincible and won't die to massive damage that brood can deal which is why he wins most midlane matchup
Flamebreak has 25dps lv1 (Firefly has 10dps lv1 btw), and it upgrades to 30dps on lv2.... I don't think that's a skill I'd call "a shit skill unless you upgrade it". It's literally the opposite and a lv1 value-point...
Go play bat max flamebreak then and see if you can be effective in teamfights or in the early game in general lol
Have you not realized why nobody maxes that shit cause you know it's shit. That still makes him unable to kill broodlings or brood himself even with broodlings natural hp and magic resistance.
On April 06 2018 12:38 Thetwinmasters wrote: as a dedicated brood spammer I can tell you there is nothing that bat can do to go even or win the lane versus a brood that has a brain
On April 06 2018 12:32 goody153 wrote: Dotabuff data doesn't even represent all data (just those who signed up). And brood vs bat doesn't happen cause nobody lanes batrider mid anymore
Flamebreak is a shit skill unless you upgrade it which would mean you don't upgrade firefly and oil(you're the worst batrider in the game that time if you die) lol. I don't think flamebreak even kills the broodlings cause most nukes don't actually kill broodlings who deal more damage than flamebreak
And that assumption is even assuming that bat is invincible and won't die to massive damage that brood can deal which is why he wins most midlane matchup
Flamebreak has 25dps lv1 (Firefly has 10dps lv1 btw), and it upgrades to 30dps on lv2.... I don't think that's a skill I'd call "a shit skill unless you upgrade it". It's literally the opposite and a lv1 value-point...
Go play bat max flamebreak then and see if you can be effective in teamfights or in the early game in general lol
Have you not realized why nobody maxes that shit cause you know it's shit. That still makes him unable to kill broodlings or brood himself even with broodlings natural hp and magic resistance.
On April 06 2018 12:38 Thetwinmasters wrote: as a dedicated brood spammer I can tell you there is nothing that bat can do to go even or win the lane versus a brood that has a brain
Thank you !
I literally said the opposite goody... you're not even reading what I'm posting. I said you don't need to max flamebreak, it's a valuepoint you keep on lv1. And you're telling me to try max flamebreak despite noone ever arguing to try that
On April 06 2018 12:42 babysimba wrote: FV carry feels more like a chinese hero. Liquid usually plays fast tempo and also good wave clear heroes that can get map control.
It's still a good 1 position hero for miracle since it can farm, splitpush, contribute in fights. It's a pretty well-rounded hero that can do alot of stuff.
Now that i think about it i'm not sure which lineup has an easier way in fights since liquid just needs to stand and tank shit while void cleans up with counterinitiation
On April 06 2018 12:32 goody153 wrote: Dotabuff data doesn't even represent all data (just those who signed up). And brood vs bat doesn't happen cause nobody lanes batrider mid anymore
Flamebreak is a shit skill unless you upgrade it which would mean you don't upgrade firefly and oil(you're the worst batrider in the game that time if you die) lol. I don't think flamebreak even kills the broodlings cause most nukes don't actually kill broodlings who deal more damage than flamebreak
And that assumption is even assuming that bat is invincible and won't die to massive damage that brood can deal which is why he wins most midlane matchup
Flamebreak has 25dps lv1 (Firefly has 10dps lv1 btw), and it upgrades to 30dps on lv2.... I don't think that's a skill I'd call "a shit skill unless you upgrade it". It's literally the opposite and a lv1 value-point...
Go play bat max flamebreak then and see if you can be effective in teamfights or in the early game in general lol
Have you not realized why nobody maxes that shit cause you know it's shit. That still makes him unable to kill broodlings or brood himself even with broodlings natural hp and magic resistance.
On April 06 2018 12:38 Thetwinmasters wrote: as a dedicated brood spammer I can tell you there is nothing that bat can do to go even or win the lane versus a brood that has a brain
Thank you !
I literally said the opposite goody... you're not even reading what I'm posting. I said you don't need to max flamebreak, it's a valuepoint you keep on lv1. And you're telling me to try max flamebreak despite noone ever arguing to try that
Valuepoint flamebreak doesn't still do shit against broodlings which was your point on how bat beats brood on lane, right ? It just doesn't deal enough damage like every other higher damage nuke before level 4
Also there's no reason to pickup flamebreak cause upgrading other skills other is just better for bat in general.
On April 06 2018 12:32 goody153 wrote: Dotabuff data doesn't even represent all data (just those who signed up). And brood vs bat doesn't happen cause nobody lanes batrider mid anymore
Flamebreak is a shit skill unless you upgrade it which would mean you don't upgrade firefly and oil(you're the worst batrider in the game that time if you die) lol. I don't think flamebreak even kills the broodlings cause most nukes don't actually kill broodlings who deal more damage than flamebreak
And that assumption is even assuming that bat is invincible and won't die to massive damage that brood can deal which is why he wins most midlane matchup
Flamebreak has 25dps lv1 (Firefly has 10dps lv1 btw), and it upgrades to 30dps on lv2.... I don't think that's a skill I'd call "a shit skill unless you upgrade it". It's literally the opposite and a lv1 value-point...
Go play bat max flamebreak then and see if you can be effective in teamfights or in the early game in general lol
Have you not realized why nobody maxes that shit cause you know it's shit. That still makes him unable to kill broodlings or brood himself even with broodlings natural hp and magic resistance.
On April 06 2018 12:38 Thetwinmasters wrote: as a dedicated brood spammer I can tell you there is nothing that bat can do to go even or win the lane versus a brood that has a brain
Thank you !
I literally said the opposite goody... you're not even reading what I'm posting. I said you don't need to max flamebreak, it's a valuepoint you keep on lv1. And you're telling me to try max flamebreak despite noone ever arguing to try that
That so called value point is going to set bat back even more when he is chased out of lane. Bat skill points are pretty flexible but realistically bat players are only going to add an early point into flamebreak only when they know it is going to let them net a kill.
On April 06 2018 12:42 babysimba wrote: FV carry feels more like a chinese hero. Liquid usually plays fast tempo and also good wave clear heroes that can get map control.
It's still a good 1 position hero for miracle since it can farm, splitpush, contribute in fights. It's a pretty well-rounded hero that can do alot of stuff.
Now that i think about it i'm not sure which lineup has an easier way in fights since liquid just needs to stand and tank shit while void cleans up with counterinitiation
TnC has better engage and disengage but Liquid has an easier time guaranteeing kills with Ice Blast and the consistent damage from Familiars + Firestorm.
On April 06 2018 12:42 babysimba wrote: FV carry feels more like a chinese hero. Liquid usually plays fast tempo and also good wave clear heroes that can get map control.
It's still a good 1 position hero for miracle since it can farm, splitpush, contribute in fights. It's a pretty well-rounded hero that can do alot of stuff.
Now that i think about it i'm not sure which lineup has an easier way in fights since liquid just needs to stand and tank shit while void cleans up with counterinitiation
TnC has better engage and disengage but Liquid has an easier time guaranteeing kills with Ice Blast and the consistent damage from Familiars + Firestorm.
Yeah i think they also have an easier time when TNC is the one going at them. They have decent counterinitiation and relatively tanky/dodgy heroes apart from AA(which is never the ideal hero to catch)
On April 06 2018 13:10 Taf the Ghost wrote: TL got out warded and it has a good chance to cost them the game.
Sansheng needs to make another guide.
TNC won through the Group A tie-breaker mostly on the back of the warding. They beat Optic the same way as well. It's hard to keep it up going into the late game, but it's the difference between all of the top teams. VP is the best, by far, right now at it. Credit to Solo.
I should note that Warding is always extremely important, but with the current meta & it very difficult to hold high ground, the jump off the vision is all that matters.
On April 06 2018 13:20 Taf the Ghost wrote: What the hell is Miracle trying to accomplish with these Chronos? We give Ame crap, but at least his logic makes sense.
he wanted to guarantee he got all the rosh items (aegis/cheese/refresher), knowing he would get a 2nd chrono from the shard and guarantee himself aegis+cheese
however TNC was too far ahead that they could fight through that anyway and mindcontrol had do ditch the fight to defend the throne
I think it's one of those plays where you're watching as a calm third party and go "wow wtf was that" but when you're inches away from elimination under all that stress it's easy to understand
On April 06 2018 13:20 Taf the Ghost wrote: What the hell is Miracle trying to accomplish with these Chronos? We give Ame crap, but at least his logic makes sense.
he wanted to guarantee he got all the rosh items (aegis/cheese/refresher), knowing he would get a 2nd chrono from the shard and guarantee himself aegis+cheese
however TNC was too far ahead that they could fight through that anyway and mindcontrol had do ditch the fight to defend the throne
It was a panic decision in retrospect. The only way Liquid wins a fight is if Miracle chains Chronos back to back. Kuro already expended Ice Blast so they only had Firestorm for damage.
On April 06 2018 13:20 Taf the Ghost wrote: What the hell is Miracle trying to accomplish with these Chronos? We give Ame crap, but at least his logic makes sense.
he wanted to guarantee he got all the rosh items (aegis/cheese/refresher), knowing he would get a 2nd chrono from the shard and guarantee himself aegis+cheese
however TNC was too far ahead that they could fight through that anyway and mindcontrol had do ditch the fight to defend the throne
It was a panic decision in retrospect. The only way Liquid wins a fight is if Miracle chains Chronos back to back. Kuro already expended Ice Blast so they only had Firestorm for damage.
yeah I edit'd in a line saying something like that
I agree they probably needed the double chrono to take the fight
Wow, 100% success rate for SEA team in getting DPC point, but VP still the strongest team for the champion, cos TNC already help them eliminated Liquid.
On April 06 2018 13:29 Danzo wrote: Jack wants to say his team is probably the best so bad LOL
They just beat EG in the last qualifiers and it did not seem like a steal, so.. I wouldn't say he'd be totally wrong.
They had a good week when the meta shifted there way. They'll probably get crushed in the two LANs they made then break up after failing to qualify for TI. That will could very easily keep EG out of the Top 8, meaning they could actually cost themselves a shot at TI.
On April 06 2018 13:27 Kelefei2016 wrote: Wow, 100% success rate for SEA team in getting DPC point, but VP still the strongest team for the champion, cos TNC already help them eliminated Liquid.
Beating VP is going to be very hard, though I think Mineski could do it.
On April 06 2018 13:29 Danzo wrote: Jack wants to say his team is probably the best so bad LOL
They just beat EG in the last qualifiers and it did not seem like a steal, so.. I wouldn't say he'd be totally wrong.
They had a good week when the meta shifted there way. They'll probably get crushed in the two LANs they made then break up after failing to qualify for TI. That will could very easily keep EG out of the Top 8, meaning they could actually cost themselves a shot at TI.
if EG fail to make top 8 after 8 direct invites over the season (only behind liquid/secret/newbee, tied with VP) and then lose to 2 of optic/vgj/col (without kyle) in NA qualifiers they have no one but themselves to blame tbh
I haven't watched much dota in the past few weeks because of my move to a new city, but wtf am I seeing? Mineski in the upper bracket finals vs LGD? And pooping on them? lol?
On April 06 2018 14:26 Steelavocado wrote: I haven't watched much dota in the past few weeks because of my move to a new city, but wtf am I seeing? Mineski in the upper bracket finals vs LGD? And pooping on them? lol?
Mineski have been playing really, really good this tournament. This isn't a surprise, at this point in the tournament, but before the tournament, this is a surprise.
On April 06 2018 14:26 Steelavocado wrote: I haven't watched much dota in the past few weeks because of my move to a new city, but wtf am I seeing? Mineski in the upper bracket finals vs LGD? And pooping on them? lol?
On April 06 2018 14:26 Steelavocado wrote: I haven't watched much dota in the past few weeks because of my move to a new city, but wtf am I seeing? Mineski in the upper bracket finals vs LGD? And pooping on them? lol?
It's been a pretty interesting game results wise. both SEA teams doing extremely well, Liquid knocked out pre top4, Secret eliminated pre top8.
Surprise pick Huskar, i think Mineski well planned it, once OD/gyro picked and no disable supp, Mineski without hesitancy they picked last pick huskar. No item gyro and OD sounds like a creep, no damage.
On April 06 2018 14:46 Sapaio wrote: Why doesn't anybody ban Underlord he seems pretty broken right now, think 4 heroes are to OP now. NP, DW, Pango and Underlord.
This might be the first, first-phase picks of the hero. Meta shifting, most of it. Underlord is OP, but you needed him to get online. Early part of the tournament, he didn't offer enough early pressure.
The other thing is HotD Cartie has been taking over as the tournament has gone on.
On April 06 2018 14:46 Sapaio wrote: Why doesn't anybody ban Underlord he seems pretty broken right now, think 4 heroes are to OP now. NP, DW, Pango and Underlord.
Underlord is quite ok. He's just like gyrocopter no glaring weakness but not really incredibly strong as well. Well at least Underlord case is actually like that but gyro is maybe a bit OP
NP is only broken when he reaches 25 and the meta is strongly favored for him. Otherwise when meta rolls away he's gonna look shit again
I agree with DW and Pango needs a bit of a nerf though
On April 06 2018 14:46 Sapaio wrote: Why doesn't anybody ban Underlord he seems pretty broken right now, think 4 heroes are to OP now. NP, DW, Pango and Underlord.
Underlord is quite ok. He's just like gyrocopter no glaring weakness but not really incredibly strong as well. Well at least Underlord case is actually like that but gyro is maybe a bit OP
NP is only broken when he reaches 25 and the meta is strongly favored for him. Otherwise when meta rolls away he's gonna look shit again
I agree with DW and Pango needs a bit of a nerf though
Think the combo of underlord being tanky himself, reduce enemy dmg and builds normally have hood making team harder to kill, so makes it hard to kill him or teammate. Then he has teamsafe ultimate that teams now are learning to use properly. Then throw in firestorm that is just plan broke as it scales out of this world against tanky enemy heroes, gives aoe and let him farm fast and wave clear, and did we mention that it is just broken on rosh. Nah nothing OP about him right now.
It's hard to say Underlord is OP since the heroes that excel against him are out of the meta. And that is easily curable with some appropriate buffs. It's not like he holds concrete advantages over the entire field.
Really the only nerf he deserves is Firestorm damage against Rosh.
On April 06 2018 14:46 Sapaio wrote: Why doesn't anybody ban Underlord he seems pretty broken right now, think 4 heroes are to OP now. NP, DW, Pango and Underlord.
Underlord is quite ok. He's just like gyrocopter no glaring weakness but not really incredibly strong as well. Well at least Underlord case is actually like that but gyro is maybe a bit OP
NP is only broken when he reaches 25 and the meta is strongly favored for him. Otherwise when meta rolls away he's gonna look shit again
I agree with DW and Pango needs a bit of a nerf though
Think the combo of underlord being tanky himself, reduce enemy dmg and builds normally have hood making team harder to kill, so makes it hard to kill him or teammate. Then he has teamsafe ultimate that teams now are learning to use properly. Then throw in firestorm that is just plan broke as it scales out of this world against tanky enemy heroes, gives aoe and let him farm fast and wave clear, and did we mention that it is just broken on rosh. Nah nothing OP about him right now.
Firestorm being one of the only % max HP abilities that works on Rosh (the other is Life Break) is pretty broken imo
You'd see a lot more of heroes like Enigma if their % HP abilities worked on Rosh
On April 06 2018 15:10 CosmicSpiral wrote: It's hard to say Underlord is OP since the heroes that excel against him are out of the meta. And that is easily curable with some appropriate buffs. It's not like he holds concrete advantages over the entire field.
Really the only nerf he deserves is Firestorm damage against Rosh.
Invoker was a fine creation with 9 ults but you needed an aghs to use more than like 3 in a fight, so Icefrog created a hero with 5 but you don't need items to use them all
I did say DW is overpowered. Kind of like that glasscanon she is. But maybe give her higher mana cost so she needs items to get them all of. Thing that most annoys me is she can teleport when invis wish they block that so she need to escape otherway.
that 4v5 smoke wraparound into rosh was a kind of play i don't think many teams would even think about let alone pull off with such decisiveness, including mineski in any context that isn't their insane level this tournament
On April 06 2018 16:00 Shergal wrote: that 4v5 smoke wraparound into rosh was a kind of play i don't think many teams would even think about let alone pull off with such decisiveness, including mineski in any context that isn't their insane level this tournament
I agree, that play was huge. No way lesser teams fight into that rosh without their underlord
On April 06 2018 16:00 Shergal wrote: that 4v5 smoke wraparound into rosh was a kind of play i don't think many teams would even think about let alone pull off with such decisiveness, including mineski in any context that isn't their insane level this tournament
Mineski probably falls off after this tournament, given how cleanly they're currently playing, but if they win here, it's probably enough to lock in a TI invite.
On April 06 2018 16:00 Shergal wrote: that 4v5 smoke wraparound into rosh was a kind of play i don't think many teams would even think about let alone pull off with such decisiveness, including mineski in any context that isn't their insane level this tournament
Mineski probably falls off after this tournament, given how cleanly they're currently playing, but if they win here, it's probably enough to lock in a TI invite.
Mineski are 4th in the rankings with their current state (grand finalists at this tournament), they're pretty much confirmed
DPC points is going to be interesting. Secret & TL were already mathematical locks when this started, simply because we know the teams going to the next Major and most of the major after that (along with the two minors). Thus, everyone else actually wants those 3 teams to eat up victories, as it keeps the few potential winners down.
Related to that, LGD & TNC have real chances to capitalize here. Winning this tournament puts you in a good place to lock in a generally safe invite slot. (And the Prize Pool doesn't hurt.) TNC, especially, doesn't have another LAN for a while, and they have to fight Mineski & Fnatic for qualifier slots.
On April 06 2018 16:00 Shergal wrote: that 4v5 smoke wraparound into rosh was a kind of play i don't think many teams would even think about let alone pull off with such decisiveness, including mineski in any context that isn't their insane level this tournament
Mineski probably falls off after this tournament, given how cleanly they're currently playing, but if they win here, it's probably enough to lock in a TI invite.
Mineski are 4th in the rankings with their current state (grand finalists at this tournament), they're pretty much confirmed
Winning a Major with 0 current DPC points nets you 2250, which is level with Mineski. If they win, the only way they can be dislodged is if someone wins a Major and places highly in another. It puts valuable space between them and the teams currently in 5th through 11th.
It has a good chance to hold, from their current number, but the key points to 3k as being a "lock". A win locks them.
If they don't win, it's going to be close at the end of the season, mostly as the only teams likely to win a Major are all in this tournament (+ Fnatic). Mathematical space, which is high placing at 2 Majors, between them and those close by are the important numbers for locking in an Invite.
On April 06 2018 16:18 Orome wrote: i hope invites dont end up being too close
having them decided by how many invites to tournaments teams got or how hard their regional quals are would suck
This is most at risk for the eastern teams, who tend to get screwed on direct invites and have cutthroat qualifiers
However, there's a lot of quality Chinese and SEA teams so it's unlikely for all the good teams to get direct invites anyway (VG, VGJ, Newbee, LGD and TNC, Mineski, Fnatic), but in the current state it's pretty likely that enough will get direct invites that the others should have a relatively easy qualifiers compared to the gauntlet they've been going through the whole seaso
On April 06 2018 16:18 Orome wrote: i hope invites dont end up being too close
having them decided by how many invites to tournaments teams got or how hard their regional quals are would suck
Only real problem is the Local vs International meta issues. Valve can smooth that out by the way they do regional slots, though there's always been a bias from doing well really early in the season, which the DPC actually lessens a bit, given the way the old invite system worked.
On April 06 2018 16:00 Shergal wrote: that 4v5 smoke wraparound into rosh was a kind of play i don't think many teams would even think about let alone pull off with such decisiveness, including mineski in any context that isn't their insane level this tournament
Mineski probably falls off after this tournament, given how cleanly they're currently playing, but if they win here, it's probably enough to lock in a TI invite.
Mineski are 4th in the rankings with their current state (grand finalists at this tournament), they're pretty much confirmed
Winning a Major with 0 current DPC points nets you 2250, which is level with Mineski. If they win, the only way they can be dislodged is if someone wins a Major and places highly in another. It puts valuable space between them and the teams currently in 5th through 11th.
It has a good chance to hold, from their current number, but the key points to 3k as being a "lock". A win locks them.
If they don't win, it's going to be close at the end of the season, mostly as the only teams likely to win a Major are all in this tournament (+ Fnatic). Mathematical space, which is high placing at 2 Majors, between them and those close by are the important numbers for locking in an Invite.
Mathematically Mineski isn't locked, but I think the chances of 5 of VGs/Newbee/LGD/TNC/Fnatic/EG getting a perfect enough setup for the remaining tournaments is pretty unlikely, but I'm not a statistician
On April 06 2018 16:00 Shergal wrote: that 4v5 smoke wraparound into rosh was a kind of play i don't think many teams would even think about let alone pull off with such decisiveness, including mineski in any context that isn't their insane level this tournament
Mineski probably falls off after this tournament, given how cleanly they're currently playing, but if they win here, it's probably enough to lock in a TI invite.
Mineski are 4th in the rankings with their current state (grand finalists at this tournament), they're pretty much confirmed
Winning a Major with 0 current DPC points nets you 2250, which is level with Mineski. If they win, the only way they can be dislodged is if someone wins a Major and places highly in another. It puts valuable space between them and the teams currently in 5th through 11th.
It has a good chance to hold, from their current number, but the key points to 3k as being a "lock". A win locks them.
If they don't win, it's going to be close at the end of the season, mostly as the only teams likely to win a Major are all in this tournament (+ Fnatic). Mathematical space, which is high placing at 2 Majors, between them and those close by are the important numbers for locking in an Invite.
Mathematically Mineski isn't locked, but I think the chances of 5 of VGs/Newbee/LGD/TNC/Fnatic/EG getting a perfect enough setup for the remaining tournaments is pretty unlikely, but I'm not a statistician
At 4th & 2250 points, they actually only need 1 team outside of the Top 8 to vault in. Say LGD. Then the teams below them are likely to all get more points, and they could end up 9th. That gets far, far less likely at 3150, which they'd be at if they win the tournament.
On April 06 2018 16:00 Shergal wrote: that 4v5 smoke wraparound into rosh was a kind of play i don't think many teams would even think about let alone pull off with such decisiveness, including mineski in any context that isn't their insane level this tournament
Mineski probably falls off after this tournament, given how cleanly they're currently playing, but if they win here, it's probably enough to lock in a TI invite.
Mineski are 4th in the rankings with their current state (grand finalists at this tournament), they're pretty much confirmed
Winning a Major with 0 current DPC points nets you 2250, which is level with Mineski. If they win, the only way they can be dislodged is if someone wins a Major and places highly in another. It puts valuable space between them and the teams currently in 5th through 11th.
It has a good chance to hold, from their current number, but the key points to 3k as being a "lock". A win locks them.
If they don't win, it's going to be close at the end of the season, mostly as the only teams likely to win a Major are all in this tournament (+ Fnatic). Mathematical space, which is high placing at 2 Majors, between them and those close by are the important numbers for locking in an Invite.
Mathematically Mineski isn't locked, but I think the chances of 5 of VGs/Newbee/LGD/TNC/Fnatic/EG getting a perfect enough setup for the remaining tournaments is pretty unlikely, but I'm not a statistician
At 4th & 2250 points, they actually only need 1 team outside of the Top 8 to vault in. Say LGD. Then the teams below them are likely to all get more points, and they could end up 9th. That gets far, far less likely at 3150, which they'd be at if they win the tournament.
ya but they also need the teams in 5th-8th to also do well enough to jump over them, which is what I think is unlikely especially since Liquid+VP are both still strong and are constantly threatening to take up half of the top 4 spots
On April 06 2018 17:28 Nomad115 wrote: What is with this first pick gyro again lol, is he really that strong? His winrate isn't even that good at DAC
imo it is such a good hero still because it is available at level 6 to do serious damage, play it from mid and it is just so good. Wins you th early game so easily. Might not be a super star carry or a stupidly quick flash farmer that it was but it still very good and easy to get it online fast.
Also i am all in favour of TNC draft here. So much damage being able to be out put and the lanes should be won so convincingly. Willow/TB and a SK/Pony, well good luck trying to get anything out of those lanes
jesus that jump from ramzes, immediately that ward down he just blinked on top of kuku and just destroyed him before tnc could even react. no hesitation at all
Yeah its a hard high ground push though without an aegis for sure and even then still hard. Epicenter + Stun Pony Stun Terrorblade level 20 reflection Dark Willow things Then QOP just blowing someone up
On April 06 2018 18:16 Pandemona wrote: He needed linkens aka another 2-3 minutes and he would been fine. And Gyro practically kills himself via reflection lol
You keep saying that, Reflection doesn't do anything to Gyro, Gyro isn't the type that does too much right click damage, he does huge AoE damage with abilities.
On April 06 2018 18:16 Pandemona wrote: He needed linkens aka another 2-3 minutes and he would been fine. And Gyro practically kills himself via reflection lol
You keep saying that, Reflection doesn't do anything to Gyro, Gyro isn't the type that does too much right click damage, he does huge AoE damage with abilities.
Did you not see the push bottom where they won the game? Reflection took him to half hp, he ran back. When he ran back Lion blinked in stunned TB and they killed him. No one else was hitting Gyro apart from his own reflection which took him so low he ran out xD
On April 06 2018 18:16 Pandemona wrote: He needed linkens aka another 2-3 minutes and he would been fine. And Gyro practically kills himself via reflection lol
You keep saying that, Reflection doesn't do anything to Gyro, Gyro isn't the type that does too much right click damage, he does huge AoE damage with abilities.
Did you not see the push bottom where they won the game? Reflection took him to half hp, he ran back. When he ran back Lion blinked in stunned TB and they killed him. No one else was hitting Gyro apart from his own reflection which took him so low he ran out xD
I saw that last push that TNC tried after Megas where reflection didn't take 1/5 of Gyro's HP. Reflection works best against heroes that deal passive aoe damage(Medusa, Luna), that have some passive abilities(like AM that mana burns himself), have auras to give them to TB's team(amazing against Omni, Beastmaster, Lycan etc.) or just have huge auto-attack damage and attack speed(Morph for example). Troll doesn't get into this category because illusion can't bash and doesn't attack fast, and Gyro deals majority of its damage through third spell and call down on all enemy heroes, and illusion doesn't get any of that.
Sure, Reflection is always useful because of slow and that bit of damage, but not all of the heroes will kill themselves. And it also doesn't work through BKB.
That wasn't the push i was on about i was on the about the VP push with aegis on the bottom of TNC base where the reflection takes half of Gyro hp away before the blink and kill on Raven by Solo. But anyway game 3 time.
Easy puck last pick for VP surely? Oh they banned it xD
On April 06 2018 18:43 Pandemona wrote: That wasn't the push i was on about i was on the about the VP push with aegis on the bottom of TNC base where the reflection takes half of Gyro hp away before the blink and kill on Raven by Solo. But anyway game 3 time.
Easy puck last pick for VP surely? Oh they banned it xD
TNC would probably just have to hold and reach their peak .. Gyro and luna are so teamfight centric having farmed on both would probably outscale VP's entire lineup but they have doom
That was very poor from TNC, they could have won that team fight if they didn't split in 3 different directions. Gyro and Luna ultimates together would have been huge damage to all.
On April 06 2018 19:00 Pandemona wrote: But he has to Doom the naga doesn't he or the Naga just gets to restart the fight for them with song.
Yes, or just focus down the Naga before she does anything. Also they can make 2 BKBs on Doom and DK, and Naix has one in his kit, so they can go through Song.
On April 06 2018 19:04 Pandemona wrote: Yeah the free bkb on Naix is very useful vs naga indeed.
It work both ways though, if they have just Naix with Rage, they can use song and Ensnare on him and just focus him down while everybody else is asleep. It becomes problematic when you have multiple BKBs.
If this goes lategame though and assuming both gyro and luna has even-ish farm then it becomes really hard for VP and they would need doom to hit the right targets. Luna becomes more effective lategame as bkb's go down
Naix becomes really big in this mid game, its amazing how good Ramzes and Noone are, they both got pressured a lot in the early game, Ramzes had to change lanes few times, Noone was perma-ganked mid and they are still at the top of networth.
Gyro and Luna don't have much right now, very hard to fight into Radi, Crest, S&Y Naix.
Yeah still think this is very hard game to "throw" for TNC, as proven with that high ground defense with naga and sk doing nothing and getting stunned. They had way to much damage through luna and gyro (who was doomed!)
On April 06 2018 19:17 Pandemona wrote: Yeah still think this is very hard game to "throw" for TNC, as proven with that high ground defense with naga and sk doing nothing and getting stunned. They had way to much damage through luna and gyro (who was doomed!)
Late game Doom can make Luna look stupid if VP gets the jump.
On April 06 2018 19:17 Pandemona wrote: Yeah still think this is very hard game to "throw" for TNC, as proven with that high ground defense with naga and sk doing nothing and getting stunned. They had way to much damage through luna and gyro (who was doomed!)
Late game Doom can make Luna look stupid if VP gets the jump.
Tbf ultralategame doom is like one of the games best lategame options you could have
On April 06 2018 19:22 Pandemona wrote: Wow ok, VP showing good fighting skills as usual but that was very close for TNC as well
Yeah, but TNC had huge advantage in that fight, got the initiation, killed Doom, evade Static Storm, killed Disruptor, and Noone and Ramzes still cleaned whole team.
Right now some all star match which im sure wont start for another 23 million hours because of the way DAC like to slow roll everything xD But still i want to watch this if possible. It's 8 carries plus GH and Yang so be fun to see who supports
On April 06 2018 19:34 Pandemona wrote: Right now some all star match which im sure wont start for another 23 million hours because of the way DAC like to slow roll everything xD But still i want to watch this if possible. It's 8 carries plus GH and Yang so be fun to see who supports
what the fuck are supports
such medieval system of dota .. 1 position for everybody is the new age dota
On April 06 2018 19:34 Pandemona wrote: Right now some all star match which im sure wont start for another 23 million hours because of the way DAC like to slow roll everything xD But still i want to watch this if possible. It's 8 carries plus GH and Yang so be fun to see who supports
what the fuck are supports
such medieval system of dota .. 1 position for everybody is the new age dota
going back to ancient times where everyone plays carry
On April 06 2018 19:34 Pandemona wrote: Right now some all star match which im sure wont start for another 23 million hours because of the way DAC like to slow roll everything xD But still i want to watch this if possible. It's 8 carries plus GH and Yang so be fun to see who supports
what the fuck are supports
such medieval system of dota .. 1 position for everybody is the new age dota
going back to ancient times where everyone plays carry
researchers found out that the so called "supports" are high unefficient way of playing doter
On April 06 2018 19:36 Kipsate wrote: That Tusk play was fucking ridic this game tbh
Indeed. Ramzes and Rodjer are the MVP of this match. Pasha played nice Doom as well, but if there was no for Rodjer's Tusk whole early game would fall apart. Snowballs and Ice Shards were out of this world.
On April 06 2018 19:38 Ramiz1989 wrote: What the hell are these questions? :D
"Were you guys angry?" :D
Well to be fair it seemed to me like they had quite a lot of anger in their matches when they had Lil, now they seem a lot more calm which is probably the reason they are n1!
On April 06 2018 19:34 Pandemona wrote: Right now some all star match which im sure wont start for another 23 million hours because of the way DAC like to slow roll everything xD But still i want to watch this if possible. It's 8 carries plus GH and Yang so be fun to see who supports
what the fuck are supports
such medieval system of dota .. 1 position for everybody is the new age dota
Haha yeah :D Miracle and Sylar captains fun fun. Give me the west vs china draft;
On April 06 2018 19:34 Pandemona wrote: Right now some all star match which im sure wont start for another 23 million hours because of the way DAC like to slow roll everything xD But still i want to watch this if possible. It's 8 carries plus GH and Yang so be fun to see who supports
what the fuck are supports
such medieval system of dota .. 1 position for everybody is the new age dota
going back to ancient times where everyone plays carry
researchers found out that the so called "supports" are high unefficient way of playing doter
scientists baffled about existence of supports, comes up with thesis papers on why 5 carry = best dota
On April 06 2018 19:34 Pandemona wrote: Right now some all star match which im sure wont start for another 23 million hours because of the way DAC like to slow roll everything xD But still i want to watch this if possible. It's 8 carries plus GH and Yang so be fun to see who supports
what the fuck are supports
such medieval system of dota .. 1 position for everybody is the new age dota
going back to ancient times where everyone plays carry
researchers found out that the so called "supports" are high unefficient way of playing doter
scientists baffled about existence of supports, comes up with thesis papers on why 5 carry = best dota
Headline "Supports are dead. Everybody playing carry is the way for the era!"
There hasn't been any DS this tournament? I thought that hero could see a comeback with the buffs, but I guess it's not enough/they haven't practised it yet?
On April 06 2018 20:34 BigO wrote: There hasn't been any DS this tournament? I thought that hero could see a comeback with the buffs, but I guess it's not enough/they haven't practised it yet?
this patch is a stompy patch, comeback gold got nerfed so bad with wins of 5k become 500 gold
it kinda destroyed team like newbee and threw off alot of teams, made SEA style of playing kinda good (1 2 support murdering cores)
if anything this made me as a SEA chinese accept the fact that oh well, that winning all star team surely have different ideas (or not as exposed/experienced as) about fun and antifun
not saying or sure whether its bad or good, probably neither but kinda meh man, prolly about 1/10 fountain camping too many in an allstar game
after SCCC fed mid it was inevitable that a meepo/ long blackhole-cd lineup have hard time recovering. more of a strat thing than skill
if anything the chainstuns that miracle's lineup did is a more difficult and requires pro-skill thing to pull. but dota's dota, draft and hero strengths can easily close any chances of recovery.
if there are any naive pros on that stage thinking this is an indicator of their skill (obviously it isnt), then i think moving forward they'll be in for quite the surprise and backlash :/ w/e tho
This is Dota, Liquid sent VP down, but TNC helped VP eliminated Liquid then VP advanced by stepping TNC... So complicated. So we cant really say which one is strongest, cos somewhere somehow still need other to help.
Second, and I say that with no malice, your post does look, to me, like the SEA/CN team in said match. Overkill, out of proportion, somewhat.
Maybe I have the western bias (ofc I do, who am I kidding, I barely know any CN/SEA players besides Mr triple ice), meaning that my perception would be affected by the fact the "World team" lost, but to me, and to cut it short, it looked like the CN team was tryharding.
And it spoiled the fun (sven...). That said, I can remember an allstar match or w/e where one dude picked techies and ended the whole game alone in like 2 minutes with a -wtf command. This was not great either.
At any rates, this was not a very exciting ending to what was a very good dota day otherwise
EPT
Dota 2 Asia Championships/2018![[image loading]](/staff/Julmust/lr_threads/team_logos/234x90/ig_white.png)
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