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On July 15 2016 06:14 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2016 06:13 nojok wrote:
Neither team are playing at their best and wings barely has experience against Western teams so I hope they can gather some more experience during this meaningless tourney before TI. They've been to several international tournaments already. Saying they don't have any experience is simply wrong. It's just that, besides that one tournament which they won, they've been doing very bad.
You know nothing about Chinese dota and you're legendary biased. You're still thinking TI5 was terrible for China with 4 teams in the top5... They've got good results in China and winning a fresh patch small lan meant nothing. They're skilled and I'm rooting for them at TI.
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On July 15 2016 06:13 Taf the Ghost wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2016 06:11 Azarkon wrote:
The fact that this team beat Newbee looks bad for China. It's the same reason that TL has Newbee's number: Newbee & LGD aren't good against push-strats. Which is Wings' best strats.
I think playing weird shit is Wings best strategy. They didn't play a push strat against Nb in the finals except arguably for the Luna/SD combo.
That's why even though I like the team I don't see them getting really far in TI. Somewhere along the way they will lose to someone happening to counter whatever they are doing twice in a row.
Edit: And Azarkon do you have to start that discution every thread? Really? After one game?
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On July 15 2016 06:21 nojok wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2016 06:14 Azarkon wrote:On July 15 2016 06:13 nojok wrote:
Neither team are playing at their best and wings barely has experience against Western teams so I hope they can gather some more experience during this meaningless tourney before TI. They've been to several international tournaments already. Saying they don't have any experience is simply wrong. It's just that, besides that one tournament which they won, they've been doing very bad. You know nothing about Chinese dota and you're legendary biased. You're still thinking TI5 was terrible for China with 4 teams in the top5... They've got good results in China and winning a fresh patch small lan meant nothing. They're skilled and I'm rooting for them at TI.
People keep saying I know nothing about Chinese Dota, yet I keep getting it right about them, so I must have that magic where my clock is right twelve times a day despite not working...
...In any case, no one is saying you shouldn't cheer for Chinese teams; I'm just saying they'll need it, as again they are not looking that solid going into the tournament.
Edit: And Azarkon do you have to start that discution every thread? Really? After one game?
It's been over a month since this discussion was had, and it's about time we had it given that it's less than three weeks from the international. This is the biggest tournament of the year and yet there's barely any talk about the performance of teams in one of the last tournaments before it. Last year, or the year before, there was much more discussion, and it's getting boring seeing five messages total for a game between two top international teams.
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While Wings does have some interesting combinations, the way they went through the TI6 Qualifiers and what they've mostly played is push strats. And, a lot of the times, with non-push lineups. Though maybe "push strat" isn't quite the phrase. They'll play very aggressive with whatever lineup they're running, which a lot of times has at least 1 heavy tower pushing hero. (So they win a team-fight on the opponent's side of the map, then take a tower.)
They've got a little bit of the CDEC vibe, but CDEC simply out-executed the meta better. Wings has their own meta, but they always show a lack of having played how some of the games when they do.
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Wings going for the girl strat,
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On July 15 2016 06:26 Taf the Ghost wrote:
While Wings does have some interesting combinations, the way they went through the TI6 Qualifiers and what they've mostly played is push strats. And, a lot of the times, with non-push lineups. Though maybe "push strat" isn't quite the phrase. They'll play very aggressive with whatever lineup they're running, which a lot of times has at least 1 heavy tower pushing hero. (So they win a team-fight on the opponent's side of the map, then take a tower.)
They've got a little bit of the CDEC vibe, but CDEC simply out-executed the meta better. Wings has their own meta, but they always show a lack of having played how some of the games when they do.
I agree they're lacking some experience on map movements, the ultimate skill which separate top teams from the rest. I agree they're at their best (and their worse too I guess) when playing some agressive unorthodox draft but they can also show some flashy plays and good games with more classic drafts at least against their Chinese opponents. If they adapt a little bit more against Western teams, they would surely be able to mix both for maximum efficiency.
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Wings going for Meme-push; Na'Vi going for "good luck ever breaking high ground!".
This should be really interesting.
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Both these teams seem to love these lvl 1 fights.
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On July 15 2016 06:33 nojok wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2016 06:26 Taf the Ghost wrote:
While Wings does have some interesting combinations, the way they went through the TI6 Qualifiers and what they've mostly played is push strats. And, a lot of the times, with non-push lineups. Though maybe "push strat" isn't quite the phrase. They'll play very aggressive with whatever lineup they're running, which a lot of times has at least 1 heavy tower pushing hero. (So they win a team-fight on the opponent's side of the map, then take a tower.)
They've got a little bit of the CDEC vibe, but CDEC simply out-executed the meta better. Wings has their own meta, but they always show a lack of having played how some of the games when they do. I agree they're lacking some experience on map movements, the ultimate skill which separate top teams from the rest. I agree they're at their best (and their worse too I guess) when playing some agressive unorthodox draft but they can also show some flashy plays and good games with more classic drafts at least against their Chinese opponents. If they adapt a little bit more against Western teams, they would surely be able to mix both for maximum efficiency.
That's not even the problem.
The biggest problem with them is decision making, specifically knowing when they can win a team fight and when they can't. Due to this, what they do is to always go for them, and hope it works. Why this works against top Chinese teams, I don't know.
Then you have the fact that they don't land their spells a lot of the times, which is a problem with individual skill.
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On July 15 2016 06:25 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2016 06:21 nojok wrote:On July 15 2016 06:14 Azarkon wrote:On July 15 2016 06:13 nojok wrote:
Neither team are playing at their best and wings barely has experience against Western teams so I hope they can gather some more experience during this meaningless tourney before TI. They've been to several international tournaments already. Saying they don't have any experience is simply wrong. It's just that, besides that one tournament which they won, they've been doing very bad. You know nothing about Chinese dota and you're legendary biased. You're still thinking TI5 was terrible for China with 4 teams in the top5... They've got good results in China and winning a fresh patch small lan meant nothing. They're skilled and I'm rooting for them at TI. People keep saying I know nothing about Chinese Dota, yet I keep getting it right about them, so I must have that magic where my clock is right twelve times a day despite not working... ...In any case, no one is saying you shouldn't cheer for Chinese teams; I'm just saying they'll need it, as again they are not looking that solid going into the tournament. Show nested quote +
Edit: And Azarkon do you have to start that discution every thread? Really? After one game?
It's been over a month since this discussion was had, and it's about time we had it given that it's less than three weeks from the international. This is the biggest tournament of the year and yet there's barely any talk about the performance of teams in one of the last tournaments before it. Last year, or the year before, there was much more discussion, and it's getting boring seeing five messages total for a game between two top international teams.
Maybe people are reserving their opinion on scenes competitiveness for the moment when more than one game has been played ? Or they already had their opinion voiced in all the qualifier threads (and boy where those astute observations on point, never been so impressed) ?
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On July 15 2016 06:37 Diavlo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2016 06:25 Azarkon wrote:On July 15 2016 06:21 nojok wrote:On July 15 2016 06:14 Azarkon wrote:On July 15 2016 06:13 nojok wrote:
Neither team are playing at their best and wings barely has experience against Western teams so I hope they can gather some more experience during this meaningless tourney before TI. They've been to several international tournaments already. Saying they don't have any experience is simply wrong. It's just that, besides that one tournament which they won, they've been doing very bad. You know nothing about Chinese dota and you're legendary biased. You're still thinking TI5 was terrible for China with 4 teams in the top5... They've got good results in China and winning a fresh patch small lan meant nothing. They're skilled and I'm rooting for them at TI. People keep saying I know nothing about Chinese Dota, yet I keep getting it right about them, so I must have that magic where my clock is right twelve times a day despite not working... ...In any case, no one is saying you shouldn't cheer for Chinese teams; I'm just saying they'll need it, as again they are not looking that solid going into the tournament.
Edit: And Azarkon do you have to start that discution every thread? Really? After one game?
It's been over a month since this discussion was had, and it's about time we had it given that it's less than three weeks from the international. This is the biggest tournament of the year and yet there's barely any talk about the performance of teams in one of the last tournaments before it. Last year, or the year before, there was much more discussion, and it's getting boring seeing five messages total for a game between two top international teams. Maybe people are reserving their opinion on scenes competitiveness for the moment when more than one game has been played ? Or they already had their opinion voiced in all the qualifier threads (and boy where those astute observations on point, never been so impressed) ?
This is the last tournament in which a top Chinese team that is going to the international is playing before the international. It is the LAST opportunity to talk about it since the Chinese teams going to the next tournament before the international aren't actually in the international.
As for trying to judge the skill of teams from when they're trying to qualify, that's a lot less easy to do because you're seeing teams from the same region, who know each other very well.
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On July 15 2016 06:41 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2016 06:37 Diavlo wrote:On July 15 2016 06:25 Azarkon wrote:On July 15 2016 06:21 nojok wrote:On July 15 2016 06:14 Azarkon wrote:On July 15 2016 06:13 nojok wrote:
Neither team are playing at their best and wings barely has experience against Western teams so I hope they can gather some more experience during this meaningless tourney before TI. They've been to several international tournaments already. Saying they don't have any experience is simply wrong. It's just that, besides that one tournament which they won, they've been doing very bad. You know nothing about Chinese dota and you're legendary biased. You're still thinking TI5 was terrible for China with 4 teams in the top5... They've got good results in China and winning a fresh patch small lan meant nothing. They're skilled and I'm rooting for them at TI. People keep saying I know nothing about Chinese Dota, yet I keep getting it right about them, so I must have that magic where my clock is right twelve times a day despite not working... ...In any case, no one is saying you shouldn't cheer for Chinese teams; I'm just saying they'll need it, as again they are not looking that solid going into the tournament.
Edit: And Azarkon do you have to start that discution every thread? Really? After one game?
It's been over a month since this discussion was had, and it's about time we had it given that it's less than three weeks from the international. This is the biggest tournament of the year and yet there's barely any talk about the performance of teams in one of the last tournaments before it. Last year, or the year before, there was much more discussion, and it's getting boring seeing five messages total for a game between two top international teams. Maybe people are reserving their opinion on scenes competitiveness for the moment when more than one game has been played ? Or they already had their opinion voiced in all the qualifier threads (and boy where those astute observations on point, never been so impressed) ? This is the last tournament in which a top Chinese team that is going to the international is playing before the international. It is the LAST opportunity to talk about it since the Chinese teams going to the next tournament before the international aren't actually in the international. As for trying to judge the skill of teams from when they're trying to qualify, that's a lot less easy to do because you're seeing teams from the same region, who know each other very well.
Again. One game in this tournament and the fact that Wings won a few times against Nb is enough for you to draw conclusions on the chinese chances at TI.
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On July 15 2016 06:49 Diavlo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2016 06:41 Azarkon wrote:On July 15 2016 06:37 Diavlo wrote:On July 15 2016 06:25 Azarkon wrote:On July 15 2016 06:21 nojok wrote:On July 15 2016 06:14 Azarkon wrote:On July 15 2016 06:13 nojok wrote:
Neither team are playing at their best and wings barely has experience against Western teams so I hope they can gather some more experience during this meaningless tourney before TI. They've been to several international tournaments already. Saying they don't have any experience is simply wrong. It's just that, besides that one tournament which they won, they've been doing very bad. You know nothing about Chinese dota and you're legendary biased. You're still thinking TI5 was terrible for China with 4 teams in the top5... They've got good results in China and winning a fresh patch small lan meant nothing. They're skilled and I'm rooting for them at TI. People keep saying I know nothing about Chinese Dota, yet I keep getting it right about them, so I must have that magic where my clock is right twelve times a day despite not working... ...In any case, no one is saying you shouldn't cheer for Chinese teams; I'm just saying they'll need it, as again they are not looking that solid going into the tournament.
Edit: And Azarkon do you have to start that discution every thread? Really? After one game?
It's been over a month since this discussion was had, and it's about time we had it given that it's less than three weeks from the international. This is the biggest tournament of the year and yet there's barely any talk about the performance of teams in one of the last tournaments before it. Last year, or the year before, there was much more discussion, and it's getting boring seeing five messages total for a game between two top international teams. Maybe people are reserving their opinion on scenes competitiveness for the moment when more than one game has been played ? Or they already had their opinion voiced in all the qualifier threads (and boy where those astute observations on point, never been so impressed) ? This is the last tournament in which a top Chinese team that is going to the international is playing before the international. It is the LAST opportunity to talk about it since the Chinese teams going to the next tournament before the international aren't actually in the international. As for trying to judge the skill of teams from when they're trying to qualify, that's a lot less easy to do because you're seeing teams from the same region, who know each other very well. Again. One game in this tournament and the fact that Wings won a few times against Nb is enough for you to draw conclusions on the chinese chances at TI.
Yes, in fact.
And in any case, it's not just one game. Look at the same mistakes being made in this game - again they don't know when to take fights so they just keep doing it.
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Wings don't know how to cut their losses 
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Beautiful teamfight by Navi.
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If you watched Nanyang, you'd know that there's a lot of reasons to be concerned about China at TI6. They've got 3 weeks to get their coordination fixed, as none of the top Tier non-Chinese teams are going to be that inconsistent. We're not looking at "Shanghai-level" bad, but what we saw of the top teams wasn't that good.
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On July 15 2016 06:55 Taf the Ghost wrote:
If you watched Nanyang, you'd know that there's a lot of reasons to be concerned about China at TI6. They've got 3 weeks to get their coordination fixed, as none of the top Tier non-Chinese teams are going to be that inconsistent. We're not looking at "Shanghai-level" bad, but what we saw of the top teams wasn't that good.
The way I see it, the West has higher quality teams at the top; as such when they start practicing hard with the lower teams, it's a lot easier to improve as a region, because the lower teams learn very fast from practicing against them. This is why the region with the best teams, even in case all their other teams suck, can be called the best region.
For example, I think America was a lot worse back when PPD's team was doing bad; now that PPD's team has started making a come back, the rest of the American teams will improve and should be competitive in the international though they won't place above PPD's team.
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On July 15 2016 06:59 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2016 06:55 Taf the Ghost wrote:
If you watched Nanyang, you'd know that there's a lot of reasons to be concerned about China at TI6. They've got 3 weeks to get their coordination fixed, as none of the top Tier non-Chinese teams are going to be that inconsistent. We're not looking at "Shanghai-level" bad, but what we saw of the top teams wasn't that good. The way I see it, the West has higher quality teams at the top; as such when they start practicing hard with the lower teams, it's a lot easier to improve as a region, because the lower teams learn very fast from practicing against them. This is why the region with the best teams, even in case all their other teams suck, can be called the best region. For example, I think America was a lot worse back when PPD's team was doing bad; now that PPD's team has started making a come back, the rest of the American teams are also improving and should be competitive in the international though they won't place above PPD's team.
I'll be honest about this: I think China's biggest problem has been the fall of CIS Dota. 1-2 CIS Teams + Clown9 missing from tournaments means that the top-tier Chinese teams don't get free victories like they used to get. There's a whole lot less throwing in these tournaments.
Granted, Alliance & Na'Vi are both at TI6, but VG.R, Wings & (potentially) Ehome are also really "throw-y" right now.
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This series is kinda sloppy so far, so many mistakes
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EPT
