[Summit 5] Upper Bracket - Day 2

On July 15 2016 00:13 Kamisamanachi wrote:
Also, madara is a pretty cool name

On July 15 2016 02:29 M.S.Bismarck wrote:

I first read it as madera (Spanish for wood). But that doesn't make sense in Greece.

On July 15 2016 02:43 Procake wrote:
This kinda defeats the purpose of having a jungler right, when your offlane turns into a support and you just have 3 cores anyway.

On July 15 2016 02:55 Daray wrote:
If MC had a lane where he could get xp the draft might have been ok but with a bad start for the nyx there was no way they could team fight or crate space around the map.

On July 15 2016 03:02 ChunderBoy wrote:
one does not simply first pick morph without banning am

On July 15 2016 02:43 Procake wrote:
This kinda defeats the purpose of having a jungler right, when your offlane turns into a support and you just have 3 cores anyway.

On July 15 2016 04:07 Wineandbread wrote:
Disruption into cogs new meta

On July 15 2016 04:18 Pyrthas wrote:
I missed the first two games, but I'm happy to see AF playing this well in game 3 at least.

On July 15 2016 04:22 pellejohnson wrote:
Who is commentating? Moon + Fly + ???

On July 15 2016 04:18 Pyrthas wrote:
I missed the first two games, but I'm happy to see AF playing this well in game 3 at least.

On July 15 2016 04:23 nojok wrote:

AF is a solid team but they're not playing better than usual, on the other hand liquid drafted some really weird stuff in game 1 and 3 and this dual roam from axe + clock feeding countless kills early against snowballish heroes.

On July 15 2016 04:49 TheTenthDoc wrote:
Isn't advertising betting sites that use Valve games against the rules on Twitch now or is this some stupid minute distinction that allows The Summit to keep doing so

On July 15 2016 05:35 Azarkon wrote:
So this is the best team in Eastern Europe against the second best team in China?

I don't know what to say.

On July 15 2016 05:39 lolfail9001 wrote:

This is third best Western team bro, third best.

On July 15 2016 05:40 Azarkon wrote:


You sure about that? I have a feeling a few teams are going to come back during the international.

On July 15 2016 05:46 Taf the Ghost wrote:
Wings over-performs against Chinese teams, but against non-Chinese competition, they look like a second-level Tier 1 team.

Though Na'Vi can't afford to lose this game, as Wings turned in a really bad draft. Wings' Meme-push strats are nothing to laugh at.

On July 15 2016 05:50 Taf the Ghost wrote:
General is REALLY underperforming on the Batrider this game. Na'Vi is trying to throw this.

On July 15 2016 06:11 Azarkon wrote:
The fact that this team beat Newbee looks bad for China.

On July 15 2016 06:12 lolfail9001 wrote:

Beat Newbee? Where?

On July 15 2016 06:13 nojok wrote:
Neither team are playing at their best and wings barely has experience against Western teams so I hope they can gather some more experience during this meaningless tourney before TI.

On July 15 2016 06:13 Faruko wrote:

2-1 in upper bracket

they lost 2-3 in GF

On July 15 2016 06:15 nojok wrote:

And 2x 2-0 during the qualifier of this tourney at the end of may.

On July 15 2016 06:17 Taf the Ghost wrote:


If you re-ran ESL One Manila 100 times, Wings wins that tournament maybe twice. Wings got the most classic "good day for us; bad day for them" luck I've seen in a long while.

On July 15 2016 06:14 Azarkon wrote:


They've been to several international tournaments already. Saying they don't have any experience is simply wrong.

It's just that, besides that one tournament which they won, they've been doing very bad.

On July 15 2016 06:13 Taf the Ghost wrote:


It's the same reason that TL has Newbee's number: Newbee & LGD aren't good against push-strats. Which is Wings' best strats.

On July 15 2016 06:21 nojok wrote:

You know nothing about Chinese dota and you're legendary biased. You're still thinking TI5 was terrible for China with 4 teams in the top5... They've got good results in China and winning a fresh patch small lan meant nothing. They're skilled and I'm rooting for them at TI.

Edit: And Azarkon do you have to start that discution every thread? Really? After one game?

On July 15 2016 06:26 Taf the Ghost wrote:
While Wings does have some interesting combinations, the way they went through the TI6 Qualifiers and what they've mostly played is push strats. And, a lot of the times, with non-push lineups. Though maybe "push strat" isn't quite the phrase. They'll play very aggressive with whatever lineup they're running, which a lot of times has at least 1 heavy tower pushing hero. (So they win a team-fight on the opponent's side of the map, then take a tower.)

They've got a little bit of the CDEC vibe, but CDEC simply out-executed the meta better. Wings has their own meta, but they always show a lack of having played how some of the games when they do.

On July 15 2016 06:33 nojok wrote:

I agree they're lacking some experience on map movements, the ultimate skill which separate top teams from the rest. I agree they're at their best (and their worse too I guess) when playing some agressive unorthodox draft but they can also show some flashy plays and good games with more classic drafts at least against their Chinese opponents. If they adapt a little bit more against Western teams, they would surely be able to mix both for maximum efficiency.

On July 15 2016 06:25 Azarkon wrote:


People keep saying I know nothing about Chinese Dota, yet I keep getting it right about them, so I must have that magic where my clock is right twelve times a day despite not working...

...In any case, no one is saying you shouldn't cheer for Chinese teams; I'm just saying they'll need it, as again they are not looking that solid going into the tournament.



It's been over a month since this discussion was had, and it's about time we had it given that it's less than three weeks from the international. This is the biggest tournament of the year and yet there's barely any talk about the performance of teams in one of the last tournaments before it. Last year, or the year before, there was much more discussion, and it's getting boring seeing five messages total for a game between two top international teams.

On July 15 2016 06:37 Diavlo wrote:

Maybe people are reserving their opinion on scenes competitiveness for the moment when more than one game has been played ? Or they already had their opinion voiced in all the qualifier threads (and boy where those astute observations on point, never been so impressed) ?

On July 15 2016 06:41 Azarkon wrote:


This is the last tournament in which a top Chinese team that is going to the international is playing before the international. It is the LAST opportunity to talk about it since the Chinese teams going to the next tournament before the international aren't actually in the international.

As for trying to judge the skill of teams from when they're trying to qualify, that's a lot less easy to do because you're seeing teams from the same region, who know each other very well.

On July 15 2016 06:49 Diavlo wrote:

Again. One game in this tournament and the fact that Wings won a few times against Nb is enough for you to draw conclusions on the chinese chances at TI.

On July 15 2016 06:55 Taf the Ghost wrote:
If you watched Nanyang, you'd know that there's a lot of reasons to be concerned about China at TI6. They've got 3 weeks to get their coordination fixed, as none of the top Tier non-Chinese teams are going to be that inconsistent. We're not looking at "Shanghai-level" bad, but what we saw of the top teams wasn't that good.

On July 15 2016 07:04 Taf the Ghost wrote:


I'll be honest about this: I think China's biggest problem has been the fall of CIS Dota. 1-2 CIS Teams + Clown9 missing from tournaments means that the top-tier Chinese teams don't get free victories like they used to get. There's a whole lot less throwing in these tournaments.

Granted, Alliance & Na'Vi are both at TI6, but VG.R, Wings & (potentially) Ehome are also really "throw-y" right now.

On July 15 2016 07:19 lolfail9001 wrote:
Azarkon keeps confusing EG for "American", how Chinese of him.

On July 15 2016 07:09 Azarkon wrote:


I think the fall of Russia Dota specifically has a lot to do with the fact that Western European and American teams have simply improve, so you can't say that them not being there is the problem with China, rather that the problem with China is also the problem of Russia: the rise of Western European and American teams, and that we're simply seeing the effect in other regions.

It's been a long time since Western Europe + America have lost a tournament worth over one million.

On July 15 2016 07:29 MetalMercury wrote:


Yeah but that sample size is pretty small. It's only six tournaments (2015 DAC, TI 5, and then 3 majors), and a Chinese team got second in two of them and two teams from China got 3rd and 4th at Manila. Plus, some of those are so far in history that they aren't really relevant anymore.

While I think you are really underrating Newbee as a team, I do agree with you that I think China is unlikely to have a shot of winning outside of Newbee. I'd put LGD on the same tier with Team Secret, Fnatic, and MVP as teams that should do well but really kinda cap out at 4th place at best given what we've seen so far and I also don't think Wings or VG.R are top level.

Remember, it's all probabilities. Just because a team isn't the best doesn't mean they can't win the international. In fact, it's very unlikely that the best team wins the tournament with the shear number of teams competing and the randomness of a best of 3 series.

On July 15 2016 07:24 Azarkon wrote:
Why are they not American?

On July 15 2016 07:34 Azarkon wrote:


Yet I think the best teams have won all of them, except one.

2011: Natus Vincere was the best team, no question
2012: The best Chinese team won, and they were ahead this tournament, so again not much question
2013: Alliance was the best team, no question
2014: we can argue that Newbee wasn't the best team
2015: PPD's team; at best an argument can be made for Secret

On July 15 2016 07:39 SatsuinoHado wrote:
If wings pick drow 3-th game im rooting for them to lose every game they play for the next year!

On July 15 2016 07:39 MetalMercury wrote:


I would argue that LGD was better than iG at TI 2 personally, but I can understand your point. That said, even if you accept that 3 out of 5 were the best, that's still only a success rate of 60% if you're looking for the best team.

All of this is a long way of saying that while we can be pretty certain of the teams that will challenge for the title at TI, we cannot know them all ahead of time for sure (CDEC last year, Orange at TI 3) and even if we knew all of them there is a reasonable chance that any of them could end up champion, and there is at least one Chinese team (and potentially two) in this group of teams.

On July 15 2016 07:46 Azarkon wrote:


I think it says a lot that no team has won the international without being one of the two top teams of the year, except for the year in which Newbee won. I'd say 4 out of 5 international tournaments were won by one of the two favorites going in. Yes, a team that is not known has gotten into the final, but has never won it.

So while favorites can lose, and not favorites can go far, one still has to believe that the two best teams going into this year's international are both Western, and that the team that wins will be between them. Based on past results, I'd say China winning will be around 20% at best.

On July 15 2016 07:39 MetalMercury wrote:


I would argue that LGD was better than iG at TI 2 personally, but I can understand your point. That said, even if you accept that 3 out of 5 were the best, that's still only a success rate of 60% if you're looking for the best team.

All of this is a long way of saying that while we can be pretty certain of the teams that will challenge for the title at TI, we cannot know them all ahead of time for sure (CDEC last year, Orange at TI 3) and even if we knew all of them there is a reasonable chance that any of them could end up champion, and there is at least one Chinese team (and potentially two) in this group of teams.

On July 15 2016 07:55 Diavlo wrote:

And the game has changed a lot in the last year, if you look at majors as pseudo TI it's pretty clear that form before the event is hardly as good at predicting the winner as it was before. Nobody expected OG to win the month before Frankfurt, nor Secret before Shangai.

On July 15 2016 08:22 trifecta wrote:
Wings are basically MVP of China.

On July 15 2016 08:27 Faruko wrote:
lmao wings

On July 15 2016 08:28 Procake wrote:


and in turn, lmao navi

On July 15 2016 08:29 Azarkon wrote:


They just need to survive. In the late game they just win.

On July 15 2016 08:30 Faruko wrote:

The problem is that for navi in this situation to lose those 2 heroes is like wathever

for wings to lose even venge is like "shit"

Pretty shitty game design but it is what it is, for navi to take that chance is pretty worth it if works

On July 15 2016 08:33 Nyan wrote:
missed everything until just now
scepter mael drow is what I see =|

On July 15 2016 08:28 Azarkon wrote:
Told you guys, they don't know when they can take fights.

Also, Natus Vincere DOES have the late game.

On July 15 2016 08:37 dutchfriese wrote:


lol

On July 15 2016 08:38 Azarkon wrote:


Explain the throw all three games?

On July 15 2016 08:41 trifecta wrote:
this doom pick next to worthless

On July 15 2016 08:40 dutchfriese wrote:


Dota 2 is a hard game, but they're still spanking na'vi in this one.

On July 15 2016 08:42 Azarkon wrote:


And a top, as in favorite for international, team would've done it 10 minutes faster.

On July 15 2016 08:43 dutchfriese wrote:



lol this is such a stupid argument.

"Wings sucks because they took TEN WHOLE minutes too long to end the game!" Don't mind the fact they came back and won two in a row anyways after throwing one.

you're honestly such a petulant child

On July 15 2016 08:43 dutchfriese wrote:



lol this is such a stupid argument.

"Wings sucks because they took TEN WHOLE minutes too long to end the game!"

you're honestly such a petulant child

On July 15 2016 08:43 dutchfriese wrote:



lol this is such a stupid argument.

"Wings sucks because they took TEN WHOLE minutes too long to end the game!" Don't mind the fact they came back and won two in a row anyways after throwing one.

you're honestly such a petulant child

On July 15 2016 08:44 ch33psh33p wrote:


getting baited by A-God in 2016

just wait for when Wings beats Liquid

On July 15 2016 08:45 dutchfriese wrote:


I kinda think Liquid's going to win. They just going to let Wings have Drow then butt fuck her with lifestealer.

On July 15 2016 08:45 Azarkon wrote:


Except that's not the argument. The argument is that they took obviously bad fights in all three games. That's not how a top team plays.

On July 15 2016 08:46 uriel- wrote:


Liquid is godly at the run at you strats with lifestealer and lycan and all that, seems like the kind of thing Drow lineups hate to face

On July 15 2016 08:46 nojok wrote:
So drow is first pick material it seems? It's not a wings thing, the whole Chinese scene is doing it atm, which is almost sniper level of sadness, just short of an obnoxious sound like "oho ahah"

On July 15 2016 08:46 uriel- wrote:


Liquid is godly at the run at you strats with lifestealer and lycan and all that, seems like the kind of thing Drow lineups hate to face

On July 15 2016 08:48 dutchfriese wrote:


Wings doesn't hesitate to take team fights. That's why they are one of the top teams at the moment. Sometimes they lose them, but hey that's what happens when you play fast.

I just think it's funny the first post I read in this thread was azorkon shitting on one of the best chinese teams. Big fucking surprise everyone.

On July 15 2016 08:52 Azarkon wrote:


You act as though playing fast forces you to become stupid.

On July 15 2016 08:42 Azarkon wrote:


And a top, as in favorite for international, team would've done it 10 minutes faster.

On July 15 2016 08:57 dutchfriese wrote:



lol what? No, I just don't have a blind hatred of everything that is chinese and have the ability to be objective.

I also understand that even the best teams in the world make mistakes, especially when they don't hesitate to take fights. Wings doesn't play 50+ minute farmfests game in and game out like Secret. They go constantly go for the kill and I respect that, what they do isn't easy.

On July 15 2016 09:14 Taf the Ghost wrote:


Rumi?

On July 15 2016 09:18 Taf the Ghost wrote:


Rime, then?

On July 15 2016 09:16 uriel- wrote:


Huh no

On July 15 2016 10:29 Taf the Ghost wrote:
When was the last time Shadow Demon was heavily meta? I know a few times have tried to work it in over the last year, but it just wasn't quite enough. (Though Shadow Demon was a top-tier pick in Captain's Draft 3.0, since the best supports normally weren't in the pool.) Though maybe just the Meta has gotten back to Shadow Demon.

On July 15 2016 10:42 blobrus wrote:
Jungle legion getting rolled, as to be expected.

On July 15 2016 11:02 TomatoBisque wrote:
Who is the 4th guy here. I hear godz, kotlguy, merlini, and...?

On July 15 2016 11:09 Taf the Ghost wrote:
Kotl doing work.

That's something you don't see often.

On July 15 2016 11:02 TomatoBisque wrote:
Who is the 4th guy here. I hear godz, kotlguy, merlini, and...?