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On February 26 2016 19:24 lolnoty wrote:
just a tip to people suffering against spectre: when youre ahead because the enemy has a spectre, and you kill the enemy team, then they all buyback and kill you, go do it again. You're still ahead and they can't do that a 2nd time.
she wins in pubs because convincing your team to go fight just after you get wiped is almost impossible, but in pros this was fucking terrible decision making.
The difference was the first time they had aegis, they weren't confident going again without it. It's not like Fnatic was dodging fights, they were just scared of going high ground. I didn't really see what their own bb status was and whether they could have just allinned with TA bb etc.
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On February 26 2016 19:24 lolnoty wrote:
just a tip to people suffering against spectre: when youre ahead because the enemy has a spectre, and you kill the enemy team, then they all buyback and kill you, go do it again. You're still ahead and they can't do that a 2nd time.
she wins in pubs because convincing your team to go fight just after you get wiped is almost impossible, but in pros this was fucking terrible decision making.
Yeah they really needed to fight after they forced the first buy backs. Instead mushi farms jungle.
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On February 26 2016 19:22 spudde123 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2016 19:17 Acritter wrote:On February 26 2016 19:15 spudde123 wrote:On February 26 2016 19:13 Acritter wrote:On February 26 2016 19:11 spudde123 wrote:On February 26 2016 19:09 Acritter wrote:
Literally no other team ever would have made that call. Alliance just plays this game on a different level. Idk, it was close to be the game losing call. It wasn't a fight with Fnatic pushing, it wasn't a rosh fight. But now as I say this Alliance wins the rosh fight anyway. It could have gone wrong, sure, but it's still the case that no other team would have made that call. And this isn't just random CIS aggression or anything like that - you can watch another couple dozen Alliance games and you will never see them make a choice like that again. It was calculated insanity, and they added it up right. That's why they're on another level. Point being I don't think they calculated it up right. They ended up using their Spec bb just before the rosh was up and didn't even wipe Fnatic to be able to accomplish something. But it all turned out well in the fight afterwards. In the current patch, it's worth winning fights just to win fights, not to mention the incredible psychological value of being able to win that fight. I don't see what it has to do with the patch. Had Fnatic been able to win the rosh fight (potentially with bbs of their own) / gotten the rosh for free, it would have probably been end of the game with the Spec bb on cd. But Alliance got the better of the next fight and it wasn't even a real contest so it didn't come into play.
Fights=gold. Lots of gold. The casters haven't been opening up the recap tabs at all so you couldn't see it, but that was a massive amount of resources coming in for Alliance. A few extra items as well, and hey, you've got the advantage for the next fight.
Think of it this way. Alliance needed to force a fight on favorable terms. A Rosh fight was never going to be that fight. Alliance had no way to scout when Rosh was up, so they wouldn't be able to get there in time. Defending high ground while Fnatic have Aegis/Cheese is going to be less than ideal, because one little slip-up means they lose their second rax. There's an opportunity to start running at Fnatic when they're trying to move away, and you've got their full team splitting up during the run. You have your frontliner leading the charge, and the necessary support is safely but not terrifyingly far behind. It's only sensible to try and fight them so that you can gain map control back in order to actually be able to take the next Rosh.
That's the kind of calculation Alliance was doing. You need to look at the big picture.
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On February 26 2016 19:28 Geisterkarle wrote:No panel now?
Switch back to the first stream.
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On February 26 2016 19:28 Geisterkarle wrote:No panel now?
It's on the main stream.
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Northern Ireland22211 Posts
so now it's unambiguously worded that it wasn't perfect world who fired yames
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On February 26 2016 19:23 MrCon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2016 18:30 DonDomingo wrote:
I miss the times Burning Ice3 Fy Fenrir Super were a force to be reckoned with.. It's not very PC I guess but I don't like Burning's attitude since after DK. Basically he hoped from team to team, always toward the current best china team, and he found success in none of them. I'm not saying he dragged those teams down, but for sure he didn't help them much.
I don't think that is the problem .it is natural for players to seek for better teams..by your logic ,rtz should join boreal or pain gaming ? Every player aims what is best for him at that time.but yea,I can agree that be should join younger teams to guide them instead of playing with established ones.liked the idea.
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i felt past whenver loda got his radiance fnatic played about as well as you could expect of any non top top team. when s4 got killed at mid that created their only hope in the game
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On February 26 2016 19:28 Geisterkarle wrote:No panel now?
Stream continues on twitch/dotamajor.
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On February 26 2016 19:26 spudde123 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2016 19:24 lolnoty wrote:
just a tip to people suffering against spectre: when youre ahead because the enemy has a spectre, and you kill the enemy team, then they all buyback and kill you, go do it again. You're still ahead and they can't do that a 2nd time.
she wins in pubs because convincing your team to go fight just after you get wiped is almost impossible, but in pros this was fucking terrible decision making. The difference was the first time they had aegis, they weren't confident going again without it. It's not like Fnatic was dodging fights, they were just scared of going high ground. I didn't really see what their own bb status was and whether they could have just allinned with TA bb etc.
their alternative to that golden time to go was to sit in the enemy jungle with no real items planned to change the game until the enemy had buybacks again, and then go back near highground and get wiped... by another buyback haunt. from there it was clear they were resigning to always fighting into buyback haunt.
their decisions at 45 minutes weren't consistent with their decision at 35 minutes to not push. then at 55 minutes they just yolopush because they realized they fucked up hard
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On February 26 2016 19:16 hfglgg wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2016 19:14 Dracolich70 wrote:On February 26 2016 19:10 hfglgg wrote:On February 26 2016 19:08 Dracolich70 wrote:On February 26 2016 19:07 hfglgg wrote:On February 26 2016 19:06 Dracolich70 wrote:On February 26 2016 19:02 hfglgg wrote:On February 26 2016 18:59 trinxified wrote:
are the people saying they're boycotting because 2GD is gone... Are they for real? despite the shitty delays, and other issues, real dota fans are here to watch matches, not personalities. i dont see much dota going on tbh. real dota fans want the best for dota and the best for dota is when the least amount of unqualified retards are involved with it. i.e. everyone working at shanghai majors. its the internet equivalent to "vote with your money". i may watch the final, but other than that i am done with it. valve has to step up their game. 2GD is hardly relevant when it comes to Dota. He barely knew about the teams coming into the tournament. no but firing 2gd is just the tip of the iceberg. if the event was in any way run decently i wouldnt care as much, but so far nothing has been done well. its just a bunch of incompetent idiots running around in circles trying to get something going from what they have no idea whatsoever. It still leaves the important part, which is the teams. the teams get their money anyway. its the tournaments you want to hurt and you hurt them by not watching them. its not like we dont have companies that are able to run decent events, its just that perfect world isnt one of them. Oh, so you want to hurt the tournament. That is fine. Think real dota fans want to watch the teams though, regardless of how poorly run the tournament is. When eSports was grassroot, and price money was a sock, the production value was not that great either, but the love of the sport was. and we are gladly past that point and dont want to go back.
Dude you are STEAMING , relax , wait for the main event on stage to see whats up , games are fun , big upsets , fun dota , enjoy it ..... if i have a circut of events around the world , there always be "best" and "worst" thats how life is , you think the worse should improve ? sure why not , but hurting everyone involved is really not the way to go about it , different cultulres does thing differently and yours (Germany?) are known for amazing execution and what not so i guess i understand where are oyu coming from .... LET IS ALL GO , you will enjoy the games and the casting which are fine most the time.
tldr - criticize them , make them improve but support them during the process , you can see the monitors for eaxmple - it was a fuck up , they fixed it in 10 hours for all the teams.
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On February 26 2016 19:29 Batmankills wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2016 19:23 MrCon wrote:On February 26 2016 18:30 DonDomingo wrote:
I miss the times Burning Ice3 Fy Fenrir Super were a force to be reckoned with.. It's not very PC I guess but I don't like Burning's attitude since after DK. Basically he hoped from team to team, always toward the current best china team, and he found success in none of them. I'm not saying he dragged those teams down, but for sure he didn't help them much. I don't think that is the problem .it is natural for players to seek for better teams..by your logic ,rtz should join boreal or pain gaming ? Every player aims what is best for him at that time.but yea,I can agree that be should join younger teams to guide them instead of playing with established ones.liked the idea.
Fear and loda did this work quite succesfully I believe.
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http://i.imgur.com/3OgFWI9.jpg
I demand the knowledge of BurNing's rank.
@bluzi, this major is the only tournament where I have slept for literally 8+ hours and only 5.2 games have happened.
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On February 26 2016 19:29 Batmankills wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2016 19:23 MrCon wrote:On February 26 2016 18:30 DonDomingo wrote:
I miss the times Burning Ice3 Fy Fenrir Super were a force to be reckoned with.. It's not very PC I guess but I don't like Burning's attitude since after DK. Basically he hoped from team to team, always toward the current best china team, and he found success in none of them. I'm not saying he dragged those teams down, but for sure he didn't help them much. I don't think that is the problem .it is natural for players to seek for better teams..by your logic ,rtz should join boreal or pain gaming ? Every player aims what is best for him at that time.but yea,I can agree that be should join younger teams to guide them instead of playing with established ones.liked the idea.
Dude , he wants to win games and money , gambling the last years of your carrer on a bunch of rookies is FAR from the way to go , you join an established team (if you get in) that pays well and plays well and try to win from there .
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Vatican City State1573 Posts
can someone make a thread bout 2GD's drama ?
lets talk dota matches and salt here , but no drama ..
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On February 26 2016 19:33 nojok wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2016 19:29 Batmankills wrote:On February 26 2016 19:23 MrCon wrote:On February 26 2016 18:30 DonDomingo wrote:
I miss the times Burning Ice3 Fy Fenrir Super were a force to be reckoned with.. It's not very PC I guess but I don't like Burning's attitude since after DK. Basically he hoped from team to team, always toward the current best china team, and he found success in none of them. I'm not saying he dragged those teams down, but for sure he didn't help them much. I don't think that is the problem .it is natural for players to seek for better teams..by your logic ,rtz should join boreal or pain gaming ? Every player aims what is best for him at that time.but yea,I can agree that be should join younger teams to guide them instead of playing with established ones.liked the idea. Fear and loda did this work quite succesfully I believe.
I think it comes down to team strength not being the sum of talent on the team
a significant portion of the time, when a team is seriously floundering, the best thing for it is to do an almost full disband and build up with radically different players
not to say that just cycling out one player is always the wrong move, but the full disband is probably the right move a disproportionate percent of the time
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On February 26 2016 19:33 nojok wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2016 19:29 Batmankills wrote:On February 26 2016 19:23 MrCon wrote:On February 26 2016 18:30 DonDomingo wrote:
I miss the times Burning Ice3 Fy Fenrir Super were a force to be reckoned with.. It's not very PC I guess but I don't like Burning's attitude since after DK. Basically he hoped from team to team, always toward the current best china team, and he found success in none of them. I'm not saying he dragged those teams down, but for sure he didn't help them much. I don't think that is the problem .it is natural for players to seek for better teams..by your logic ,rtz should join boreal or pain gaming ? Every player aims what is best for him at that time.but yea,I can agree that be should join younger teams to guide them instead of playing with established ones.liked the idea. Fear and loda did this work quite succesfully I believe.
Yeah I think they're good example, they have tons of experience and build a team around it (not alone, but they stick to it), Burning could have done that, but he took the mercenary path. IG have the best chance to win next TI ? Go to IG. VG current best team ? Go to VG. I don't want to over criticize him, I respect him a lot, just he could have done a lot more imo.
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On February 26 2016 19:28 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2016 19:22 spudde123 wrote:On February 26 2016 19:17 Acritter wrote:On February 26 2016 19:15 spudde123 wrote:On February 26 2016 19:13 Acritter wrote:On February 26 2016 19:11 spudde123 wrote:On February 26 2016 19:09 Acritter wrote:
Literally no other team ever would have made that call. Alliance just plays this game on a different level. Idk, it was close to be the game losing call. It wasn't a fight with Fnatic pushing, it wasn't a rosh fight. But now as I say this Alliance wins the rosh fight anyway. It could have gone wrong, sure, but it's still the case that no other team would have made that call. And this isn't just random CIS aggression or anything like that - you can watch another couple dozen Alliance games and you will never see them make a choice like that again. It was calculated insanity, and they added it up right. That's why they're on another level. Point being I don't think they calculated it up right. They ended up using their Spec bb just before the rosh was up and didn't even wipe Fnatic to be able to accomplish something. But it all turned out well in the fight afterwards. In the current patch, it's worth winning fights just to win fights, not to mention the incredible psychological value of being able to win that fight. I don't see what it has to do with the patch. Had Fnatic been able to win the rosh fight (potentially with bbs of their own) / gotten the rosh for free, it would have probably been end of the game with the Spec bb on cd. But Alliance got the better of the next fight and it wasn't even a real contest so it didn't come into play. Fights=gold. Lots of gold. The casters haven't been opening up the recap tabs at all so you couldn't see it, but that was a massive amount of resources coming in for Alliance. A few extra items as well, and hey, you've got the advantage for the next fight. Think of it this way. Alliance needed to force a fight on favorable terms. A Rosh fight was never going to be that fight. Alliance had no way to scout when Rosh was up, so they wouldn't be able to get there in time. Defending high ground while Fnatic have Aegis/Cheese is going to be less than ideal, because one little slip-up means they lose their second rax. There's an opportunity to start running at Fnatic when they're trying to move away, and you've got their full team splitting up during the run. You have your frontliner leading the charge, and the necessary support is safely but not terrifyingly far behind. It's only sensible to try and fight them so that you can gain map control back in order to actually be able to take the next Rosh. That's the kind of calculation Alliance was doing. You need to look at the big picture.
I can see how the fight looked nice for them and also the map control they got out of it even if they didn't get a full wipe was certainly meaningful. In that sense I agree with what you are saying.
On February 26 2016 19:30 lolnoty wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2016 19:26 spudde123 wrote:On February 26 2016 19:24 lolnoty wrote:
just a tip to people suffering against spectre: when youre ahead because the enemy has a spectre, and you kill the enemy team, then they all buyback and kill you, go do it again. You're still ahead and they can't do that a 2nd time.
she wins in pubs because convincing your team to go fight just after you get wiped is almost impossible, but in pros this was fucking terrible decision making. The difference was the first time they had aegis, they weren't confident going again without it. It's not like Fnatic was dodging fights, they were just scared of going high ground. I didn't really see what their own bb status was and whether they could have just allinned with TA bb etc. their alternative to that golden time to go was to sit in the enemy jungle with no real items planned to change the game until the enemy had buybacks again, and then go back near highground and get wiped... by another buyback haunt. from there it was clear they were resigning to always fighting into buyback haunt. their decisions at 45 minutes weren't consistent with their decision at 35 minutes to not push. then at 55 minutes they just yolopush because they realized they fucked up hard
In general I wonder how much teams think about the time at which they use their aegis. I don't recall what was the timing in this case, but if you push at let's say 4 minutes after taking rosh and you expect the buybacks to come out, you have a decent chance that the next rosh will be up and you have time to get to the rax before the bb's are up again. However, if you go at 2 minutes it's possible the buybacks are up again even before the next rosh and for sure you won't be getting to the rax with aegis before them at least.
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EPT
