I'm not completely up to date about this tournament, but as it is apparently an offline event: Does this mean NaVi will travel to china between the end of their TI5 qualifiers and the start of this tournament, or have they even been playing their TI5 qualifiers from china?
so navi makes it through the qualifier grind, flies to china the next day and starts playing the group after (for a full 8 hour day at least)?
dunno what that other guy meant by "a few days between" there literally isn't
honestly navi has a bad chance just because they're going to be tired as hell. forget the gauntlet they just ran, they're going to be exhausted as hell playing in the wrong timezone with no time to adjust.
i have to imagine secret/empire/c9 are already in china?
On June 02 2015 22:48 hariooo wrote: so navi makes it through the qualifier grind, flies to china the next day and starts playing the group after (for a full 8 hour day at least)?
dunno what that other guy meant by "a few days between" there literally isn't
honestly navi has a bad chance just because they're going to be tired as hell. forget the gauntlet they just ran, they're going to be exhausted as hell playing in the wrong timezone with no time to adjust.
i have to imagine secret/empire/c9 are already in china?
Yeah, they all arrived 1-3 days ago afaik. Probably C9 first since they're super fussy about that kinda stuff.
Na'Vi is pretty unpredictable; almost anything can happen. I sure as hell wasn't expecting them to make it out of the EU qualifier that comfortably after the LC match.
On June 02 2015 23:17 IntoTheheart wrote: Na'Vi is pretty unpredictable; almost anything can happen. I sure as hell wasn't expecting them to make it out of the EU qualifier that comfortably after the LC match.
Actually if you start matching them with teams like Secret or EG who actually don't let mistakes go unpunished you will see how it looks like when the TI contender teams hold an advantage and squeeze the map.
that was the qualifiers mate the quality of teams there didn't know how to punish mistakes .. if you've seen the summit 3 you'll know what i mean
On June 02 2015 23:17 IntoTheheart wrote: Na'Vi is pretty unpredictable; almost anything can happen. I sure as hell wasn't expecting them to make it out of the EU qualifier that comfortably after the LC match.
Actually if you start matching them with teams like Secret or EG who actually don't let mistakes go unpunished you will see how it looks like when the TI contender teams hold an advantage and squeeze the map.
that was the qualifiers mate the quality of teams there didn't know how to punish mistakes .. if you've seen the summit 3 you'll know what i mean
That's fair, I guess I wasn't considering the calibre of opponents.
On June 02 2015 23:17 IntoTheheart wrote: Na'Vi is pretty unpredictable; almost anything can happen. I sure as hell wasn't expecting them to make it out of the EU qualifier that comfortably after the LC match.
Actually if you start matching them with teams like Secret or EG who actually don't let mistakes go unpunished you will see how it looks like when the TI contender teams hold an advantage and squeeze the map.
that was the qualifiers mate the quality of teams there didn't know how to punish mistakes .. if you've seen the summit 3 you'll know what i mean
That's fair, I guess I wasn't considering the calibre of opponents.
although with the boost of confidence they are having right now for winning the qualifiers .. i think it would not be a surprise if they upset some favorite since they have a good momentum now
On June 03 2015 02:42 FHDH wrote: These games being RR Bo1 doesn't favor Na'Vi unless they have magically decided they don't need "warm up games" any more.
i think RR b01 benefits them more since anybody can certainly take a game of anybody
having RR b03 they'll most likely lose to most teams on the group unless one of the those teams tilt
On June 03 2015 02:49 OzVelas wrote: navi vs secret first match Did na'vi ever win a game vs secret ? i just saw a stats and it's 11-0 for secret :-
Secret has 100% had their number. Of course, Na'Vi hasn't been this good for their whole history, but then Secret wasn't explicitly S-Class back then either. In any case they don't need to beat Secret, they just need to get out of their group.
On June 03 2015 06:28 FHDH wrote: I think they can top-ten in their current form. I look forward to updating that assessment after MDL. I still don't trust them to be consistent so at the top end I think I'd estimate them to have 10% top-four no matter how well they do at MDL, or 10-16 if they do like shit.
Bear in mind that Na'Vi had zero time to prepare for MarsTV Dota League. They played quals, and have to instantly flight to China.
Oh, and more - Chinese embassy won't give ArtStyle his travel passport back, so Na'Vi will be without their captain on a during stages. (http://read.navi-gaming.com/team_news/na_mars_tv_bez_artstyle - russian)
I saw this in the Na'Vi winning EU Quals thread, thought it might be interesting here. I read the Google Translate version, and it seems like Artstyle can't go, and they'll have to play with a standin.
Na'Vi just has to survive, in that case. CDEC is their main competition for bottom, I think? Don't know what state iG is in, but given that they lost to Newbee recently...
On June 04 2015 02:18 Azarkon wrote: Na'Vi just has to survive, in that case. CDEC is their main competition for bottom, I think? Don't know what state iG is in, but given that they lost to Newbee recently...
na'vi chances are grim with artstyle being left behind ..
Na'vi aren't expecting to win anything even if artstyle was there, their main priority was the qualifiers and they aren't in top shape either way. If they somehow make it into the playoffs with a chinese standin i'd be flabbergasted.
On June 04 2015 05:03 Lackbleeder wrote: Na'vi aren't expecting to win anything even if artstyle was there, their main priority was the qualifiers and they aren't in top shape either way. If they somehow make it into the playoffs with a chinese standin i'd be flabbergasted.
On June 04 2015 05:03 Lackbleeder wrote: Na'vi aren't expecting to win anything even if artstyle was there, their main priority was the qualifiers and they aren't in top shape either way. If they somehow make it into the playoffs with a chinese standin i'd be flabbergasted.
On June 04 2015 05:03 Lackbleeder wrote: Na'vi aren't expecting to win anything even if artstyle was there, their main priority was the qualifiers and they aren't in top shape either way. If they somehow make it into the playoffs with a chinese standin i'd be flabbergasted.
I don't think that's true.
Sonneiko talked about it in his interview (19:34 for the mobile peeps)
On June 04 2015 05:03 Lackbleeder wrote: Na'vi aren't expecting to win anything even if artstyle was there, their main priority was the qualifiers and they aren't in top shape either way. If they somehow make it into the playoffs with a chinese standin i'd be flabbergasted.
I don't think that's true.
Sonneiko talked about it in his interview (19:34 for the mobile peeps)
I should have been more specific. Obviously they were 100% focused on TI, as they should have been. But the implication that they are going there expecting to be routed is not something that I think is in their character (and isn't established in that interview). But they are focused on TI even in the context of MDL, that much is apparent.
On June 04 2015 05:03 Lackbleeder wrote: Na'vi aren't expecting to win anything even if artstyle was there, their main priority was the qualifiers and they aren't in top shape either way. If they somehow make it into the playoffs with a chinese standin i'd be flabbergasted.
I don't think that's true.
Sonneiko talked about it in his interview (19:34 for the mobile peeps)
I should have been more specific. Obviously they were 100% focused on TI, as they should have been. But the implication that they are going there expecting to be routed is not something that I think is in their character (and isn't established in that interview). But they are focused on TI even in the context of MDL, that much is apparent.
Yeah that's bad wording on my part, they aren't just gonna let themselves get rolled over but they will try to get some experience against secret/ig/lgd and try some things in preparation for TI5.
On June 04 2015 05:03 Lackbleeder wrote: Na'vi aren't expecting to win anything even if artstyle was there, their main priority was the qualifiers and they aren't in top shape either way. If they somehow make it into the playoffs with a chinese standin i'd be flabbergasted.
I think people overrate how skilled CDEC is.
I'm not saying CDEC is straight up better but losing their leader is a huge blow to navi. I hope i'm proven wrong and sonneiko somehow becomes the next Puppey/PPD/Xiao8
On June 04 2015 11:51 goody153 wrote: artour babaevzky leshrac .. he's been winning like 80-90% if his games with that hero and naga that's the hero he climbed 1k mmr with
his naga is scary but i think naga's scary in general ATM.
i hope they save picking naga until ti though, pretty sure the chinese scene are a bit oblivious to it
I think if IG had push or forced 5-man fights more their position might have been better. For a while their play seemed like a short kid trying to catch a ball being thrown back and forth between two bullies.
this blink bristle is actually fucking useless, burning should have left it to tusk and co. to chase down lesh mebbe but it's not an easy answer either way
I thought there's a lycan/drow/visage in this game. Secret not only did play extremely well but their lineup has more room to maneuver as well. iG play pretty well with their lineup though, but I feel like both outdraft and outplay.
On June 04 2015 12:47 beifru wrote: Very close game there.
Burning sucked so hard Ferrari gave up carrying him rofl.
ig needed to have taken more than 1 tier 2 tower to call it close
I think there was a period of time where they could have easily removed those towers. For a good portion of the game IG played exactly the game Secret wanted them to when there was really no necessity for it.
the thing was secret had more room for mistakes with their lineup..for how many times rtz died early game,he was still a beast late game with that split pushing.
Lesh lane pressure with Kotl at tower just means it's impossible to push w/o pick-off. And Secret's lineup is extremely hard to caught out also. Around the 3rd pick I think iG could have made a difference, instead of undying they could pick another initiating support. But ofc hindsight is everything.
On June 04 2015 12:50 Kamisamanachi wrote: the thing was secret had more room for mistakes with their lineup..for how many times rtz died early game,he was still a beast late game with that split pushing.
No the actual thing is people can't evaluate what is a "mistake".
On June 04 2015 12:47 beifru wrote: Very close game there.
Burning sucked so hard Ferrari gave up carrying him rofl.
it was too hard game for bristle if u think it logically..they can drain his damage with razor and kotl can kit him after his bkb ends no matter whatever the shit he build,he won't have any mana..if anything,it was an outdraft ..faith should have considered banning kotl as he saw puppey playing it in summit 3 and the common trend
On June 04 2015 12:47 beifru wrote: Very close game there.
Burning sucked so hard Ferrari gave up carrying him rofl.
it was too hard game for bristle if u think it logically..they can drain his damage with razor and kotl can kit him after his bkb ends no matter whatever the shit he build,he won't have any mana..if anything,it was an outdraft ..faith should have considered banning kotl as he saw puppey playing it in summit 3 and the common trend
Its pre-TI, I guess most teams want to try to figure out how to beat a strat than to ban a strat outright. If a team forces you to first ban a specific hero, it leaves open other more OP heroes for the other team.
Yeah, I agree it was a bad bristlegame but Burning didn't help with his bad item choices and positioning.
i don't think it's especially difficult... force movements -> push elsewhere -> recall -> force movements -> push elsewhere -> recall ad infinitum until you see a favorable fight opportunity
if enemy team tries to push you just depush safely with kotlblast and sof until your split forces them to leave
On June 04 2015 12:47 ymir233 wrote: iG focused too much on pickoffs and not enough on translating that into quick towers/map control/high ground I think
then Secret managed to shake it off and win lols
"SF has a lot of items" still fucking useless
How does one translate pickoffs into towers or map control when there's an aghs kotl
I'm almost sure at this point kotl aghs is the most ridiculous thing in the game
On June 04 2015 12:47 beifru wrote: Very close game there.
Burning sucked so hard Ferrari gave up carrying him rofl.
it was too hard game for bristle if u think it logically..they can drain his damage with razor and kotl can kit him after his bkb ends no matter whatever the shit he build,he won't have any mana..if anything,it was an outdraft ..faith should have considered banning kotl as he saw puppey playing it in summit 3 and the common trend
Its pre-TI, I guess most teams want to try to figure out how to beat a strat than to ban a strat outright. If a team forces you to first ban a specific hero, it leaves open other more OP heroes for the other team.
Yeah, I agree it was a bad bristlegame but Burning didn't help with his bad item choices and positioning.
it was not in his hand when enemy lesh is killing u near ur T3 tower,...secret played that strat great and always kept lanes pushed..it was a moment of time before burning goes out and push lanes.
On June 04 2015 12:47 ymir233 wrote: iG focused too much on pickoffs and not enough on translating that into quick towers/map control/high ground I think
then Secret managed to shake it off and win lols
"SF has a lot of items" still fucking useless
How does one translate pickoffs into towers or map control when there's an aghs kotl
I'm almost sure at this point kotl aghs is the most ridiculous thing in the game
you kill...the batman
err the kotl
unless I mean you're ok with a kotl that can be 4-shot freefarming an aghs in your game for whatever reason
On June 04 2015 12:57 Hai1Fyre wrote: either way, I think that was secret's hardest game in this group. Maybe LGD do something, but I think Secret will win the group at this point
IG has been pretty damn weak in China since TS3 though. But on the other stream, LGD looked rather shaky against CDEC. LGD is like EG, where they do better in the playoffs as Xiao8 would study the opponent's draft and movements astutely.
Secret is very likely to top the groups. Secret and VG have always been monsters in the group stage due to their high individual skill.
Secret played that terribly but if you outstrat the opponent you can get away with making 15 mistakes. This is like Alliance at Ti3.
You make it sound as though it's so easy. In that case why don't other teams do it :>
that is why it is called as pocket strat ,great einstein? pocket strats are there for surprise and once they get countered ,u find new strat
It's not a pocket strat. I guarantee you Secret is going to use it again, not even with the same heroes, but with the same concept.
Good luck pulling it off against competent team without kotol.
That's like saying good lucking pulling off a Drow strat without Drow. Doesn't mean any Drow strat would be a pocket strat or that you can't have diferent heroes in Drow strats.
i was thinking this yesterday in the c9 game, but kotl is like a 4 position naga... when a team runs a kotl strat properly you'll always have at least 2 lanes pushed in with the threat of heavy ratting anytime, and meanwhile it's very difficult to actually push because your creeps die to kotlblast (instead of radiance illus)
On June 04 2015 12:56 SpiritoftheTunA wrote: i don't think it's especially difficult... force movements -> push elsewhere -> recall -> force movements -> push elsewhere -> recall ad infinitum until you see a favorable fight opportunity
if enemy team tries to push you just depush safely with kotlblast and sof until your split forces them to leave
When most teams try to do this, they get caught with their split pushers, lose 1-2 heroes, lose creep momentum, and the game quickly spirals out of control because after losing creep momentum, you get squeezed in, and even though KOTL is able to wave clear, when you're stuck in your base because the creeps are pushing in on all sides and the opponent is able to just tighten the circle of wards and heroes around your base, you've lost, because the strategy revolves around having map control, and when you lose map control, and have no creeps to tp to to push the waves out, what are you going to do? Team fight? You have no team fight. You just lose then.
Were this style of play so trivial, Alliance would've been figured out and smashed ten times over during TI 3.
Secret played that terribly but if you outstrat the opponent you can get away with making 15 mistakes. This is like Alliance at Ti3.
You make it sound as though it's so easy. In that case why don't other teams do it :>
that is why it is called as pocket strat ,great einstein? pocket strats are there for surprise and once they get countered ,u find new strat
It's not a pocket strat. I guarantee you Secret is going to use it again, not even with the same heroes, but with the same concept.
Good luck pulling it off against competent team without kotol.
That's like saying good lucking pulling off a Drow strat without Drow. Doesn't mean any Drow strat would be a pocket strat or that you can't have diferent heroes in Drow strats.
Hell, you could probably pull off Drow strat with lycan instead of drow in certain circumstances, so even your example does not even hold it's weight as much as this strat is based on kotl.
On June 04 2015 12:57 Hai1Fyre wrote: either way, I think that was secret's hardest game in this group. Maybe LGD do something, but I think Secret will win the group at this point
IG has been pretty damn weak in China since TS3 though. But on the other stream, LGD looked rather shaky against CDEC. LGD is like EG, where they do better in the playoffs as Xiao8 would study the opponent's draft and movements astutely.
Secret is very likely to top the groups. Secret and VG have always been monsters in the group stage due to their high individual skill.
Xiao8 isn't that good. He usually come up with easy to master strategies that becomes the core of the Chinese meta for a while. Adaptation within a tournament is fairly low.
On June 04 2015 13:06 SpiritoftheTunA wrote: storm spirit and bh and clinkz n qop n shit still exist though... single target catch is probably the key or somethin
but who do you catch when the other 2 lanes are being shoved into your t3's
I think what they needed was a hero that can solve 1 lane by himself like Tinker. But secret played this game so well I don't think it would have mattered. Maybe tree to heal up towers they managed to save.
On June 04 2015 13:06 SpiritoftheTunA wrote: storm spirit and bh and clinkz n qop n shit still exist though... single target catch is probably the key or somethin
Or, maybe more importantly, it's easy as shit to rat in 3 separate lanes when there's exactly one skill to be scared of.
On June 04 2015 13:11 SpiritoftheTunA wrote: im talking in the abstract (about counters to kotl strats in general) not about this game in particular
and the heroes you catch are the heroes that are shoving your lanes...
KotL in general is just a counter against 5-man strats and dedicated push strats. Push strats usually lack in good solo killing power, so you can rat all day with no fear and abuse recall, and Illuminate stops the enemy from barrelling down at towers non-stop.
The answer's basically snowball hard enough that you can smash through illuminate anyway, or don't have a lineup that relies solely on grouping up and taking objectives.
But really, it's barely a discussion worth having, because the game had barely anything to do with some amazing strat or KotL, and everything to do with iG having 4 heroes you could run away from while they twiddle their thumbs, and the one hero with any catch having zero solo-kill power.
i dislike the general demeanor of people like toffees and zyori
trying to make everything sound polished and "professional" without regard to substance
On June 04 2015 13:26 Fire Turtles wrote: Tusk seems to be really popular in China
Interesting
cisdota values it highly too
i think the main difference between cisdota and chinesedota is that cisdota like to draft 0 heavy farmers (that would rather farm than fight for a segment of the game), while china likes to draft 1
On June 04 2015 13:43 Thetwinmasters wrote: Burning keeps under performing sigh....
i blame the draft 100%
even if he avoids those deaths he'd be so behind he'd have almost no impact and rely on the (more heavily underperforming) viper imo to carry the game
for that matter i blame the draft for his bristle performance as well; there were no builds he could do to look effective in that game
i think if anything, ig should have reversed their top and bot lanes so drow would have a passive farming lane vs pl and viper could avoid dying to skywrath/clock just so they could get to the 10 minute mark evenish
On June 04 2015 13:53 TheEmulator wrote: How goes the games did I miss anything good.
not rly
secret picked apart a terrible bristle/undying/tusk/disruptor/sf draft with kotl/lesh/ember/razor/wd (zai played ember so that was pretty cool i guess)
and then lgd vs cdec was watevz and navi games got rescheduled a bit
On June 04 2015 13:53 TheEmulator wrote: How goes the games did I miss anything good.
not rly
secret picked apart a terrible bristle/undying/tusk/disruptor/sf draft with kotl/lesh/ember/razor/wd (zai played ember so that was pretty cool i guess)
and then lgd vs cdec was watevz and navi games got rescheduled a bit
ig has some serious issue with drafting and combined that with horrible in game strategy is making all of their players look bad..all of them are capable of playing any opponents,but their gameplay as a team seems lackluster..i dunno why in the world u dont consider banning kotl when he basically walked over you in first game and is the best anti push hero in this patch ..going for aggro lane with viper and still he farms diffusal at regular time ..people blaming burning but i somehow forgot that there was a lesh in that game...this lesh felt soo lackluster..for me,its the entire freaking team which is underperforming and not just 1 player..it feels good when people say ferrari+4,but ferrari ain't having that much impact on ig's gameplan since redbull tournament(aka 6.84) ..i hope they can change their drafting style..faith is drafting pretty cocky and taking this team down at drafting stage.maybe give drafting to luo for some time as his drafts were stable for most of the time.
On June 04 2015 14:01 rabidch wrote: 6.84 killed iG for good. rip for another year burning's dream
patch>burning for real
retire after ti5 > unretire to form burning boys > 6.91 before ti6 > retire after ti6 > repeat
these retire jokes are getting just as old as fear...u would have done the same thing in his place if there was a large prize pool at a big tournament u can play in..
I think they definitely need to figure out something that works for them
Perhaps some unusual carry that isn't often played, because all said, I don't have much faith in BurNIng Bristle, or Drow, or Lesh or whatever they give him recently
Maybe go back to something older, his Gyro is good, try to work out some way to run a pos 1 Alch, maybe do the KOTL+Naga yourself or KOTL+PL
Or go back to the absolute classics and give him AM when the enemy picks Leshrac for that gamewinning rampage Mana Void
On June 04 2015 14:16 Fire Turtles wrote: I think they definitely need to figure out something that works for them
Perhaps some unusual carry that isn't often played, because all said, I don't have much faith in BurNIng Bristle, or Drow, or Lesh or whatever they give him recently
Maybe go back to something older, his Gyro is good, try to work out some way to run a pos 1 Alch, maybe do the KOTL+Naga yourself or KOTL+PL
Or go back to the absolute classics and give him AM when the enemy picks Leshrac for that gamewinning rampage Mana Void
the thing is that i saw burning playing leshrac few days ago and he was good ,his drow is good ..ig ran a lot of drow visage in 6.83 and they were doing good..i can agree with him underperforming on these heroes since new patch,butlarge amount of his failure comes from faith's cocky drafting..there is no innovation or new sense in his drafting...it's like ig stop thinking in the draft stage and then watch random pub match to pick 5 heroes...their internal execution of the gameplan seems pretty lackluster as compared to most of the polished teams.
On June 04 2015 14:12 Kamisamanachi wrote: ig has some serious issue with drafting and combined that with horrible in game strategy is making all of their players look bad..all of them are capable of playing any opponents,but their gameplay as a team seems lackluster..i dunno why in the world u dont consider banning kotl when he basically walked over you in first game and is the best anti push hero in this patch ..going for aggro lane with viper and still he farms diffusal at regular time ..people blaming burning but i somehow forgot that there was a lesh in that game...this lesh felt soo lackluster..for me,its the entire freaking team which is underperforming and not just 1 player..it feels good when people say ferrari+4,but ferrari ain't having that much impact on ig's gameplan since redbull tournament(aka 6.84) ..i hope they can change their drafting style..faith is drafting pretty cocky and taking this team down at drafting stage.maybe give drafting to luo for some time as his drafts were stable for most of the time.
They play like pubs. I feel the team is seriously lacking on strategy design before the games. Without Zhou and YYF by his side, Faith is not that a good drafter, they just picked the good heroes and tried to counter pick the opponent. Their games depend heavily on personal skill to win from the laning phase. When is the last time you see IG pull out something new?
On June 04 2015 14:12 Kamisamanachi wrote: ig has some serious issue with drafting and combined that with horrible in game strategy is making all of their players look bad..all of them are capable of playing any opponents,but their gameplay as a team seems lackluster..i dunno why in the world u dont consider banning kotl when he basically walked over you in first game and is the best anti push hero in this patch ..going for aggro lane with viper and still he farms diffusal at regular time ..people blaming burning but i somehow forgot that there was a lesh in that game...this lesh felt soo lackluster..for me,its the entire freaking team which is underperforming and not just 1 player..it feels good when people say ferrari+4,but ferrari ain't having that much impact on ig's gameplan since redbull tournament(aka 6.84) ..i hope they can change their drafting style..faith is drafting pretty cocky and taking this team down at drafting stage.maybe give drafting to luo for some time as his drafts were stable for most of the time.
They play like pubs. I feel the team is seriously lacking on strategy design before the games. Without Zhou and YYF by his side, Faith is not that a good drafter, they just picked the good heroes and tried to counter pick the opponent. Their games depend heavily on personal skill to win from the laning phase. When is the last time you see IG pull out something new?
this is what i said in my last post...i never saw any innovation from faith in his draft like other teams do..hell even alchemist pick could have been great hero for burning in these drafts..i am not blaming him only,but if your team is losing the game in drafting stage just because u cant use innovations in your drafts ,u have some serious problems.IG needs to seriously stop copy pasting strats and start finding their own..i ain't finding any sense in their strats instead of them picking same shit over and over and losing with it since new patch..it's like redbull stopped faith's head from working.
Maybe they could try a 430 Tinker to counter the KOTL rat and try a sort of '5-man-push-with-Tinker' where they run in and hit towers and Tinker deals with the other lanes
On June 04 2015 14:26 SpiritoftheTunA wrote: i just wanna see burning tell faith to fuck off and start drafting himself
burning drafts some uniq shit sometimes
I don't think faith is the one to blame on this and burning drafting won't change much. It's some problem with the whole team, they didn't spend enough effort to study their opponents. Just look at their warding and dewarding in this 2 games, such a disaster.
On June 04 2015 14:31 Fire Turtles wrote: Maybe they could try a 430 Tinker to counter the KOTL rat and try a sort of '5-man-push-with-Tinker' where they run in and hit towers and Tinker deals with the other lanes
I guess you'd still need a pipe tho
i think you're thinking too much in terms of countering one playstyle and not enough in terms of just having solid drafts of their own in the first place
i've heard ig likes to stream pubs together... maybe they've gone too pubstyle and need to learn to deal with actual pro dota again
Tusk has an all time pick rate of 1.6%. This makes him the 8th least picked hero if you exclude heroes that have not been in Captain's Mode for more than a year.
So, it is indeed interestingly to suddenly see everyone decide they want this guy.
On June 04 2015 15:05 WolfintheSheep wrote: Tusk really only seems good for Sigil.
Otherwise, I can't see him being more useful than WW.
WW can't really save multiple heroes at once though, where tusk with good positioning can save a number. I would say tusk is the better offlane, ww is the better 4-5.
On June 04 2015 15:05 WolfintheSheep wrote: Tusk really only seems good for Sigil.
Otherwise, I can't see him being more useful than WW.
tusk can be a lane dominator in certain dual lanes, especially with the new snowball
i say this because i recently got owned by a tusk undying offlane and it felt like there was nothing our safelane could do
Walrus punch works against BKB.
it goes through both bkb and linkens actually
Didn't know about the linkens. I had to play the hero as part of the 10 hero challenge and found that it fits my playstyle. The walrus punch is pretty good against heroes that BKB and jump into fights.
On June 04 2015 15:05 WolfintheSheep wrote: Tusk really only seems good for Sigil.
Otherwise, I can't see him being more useful than WW.
tusk can be a lane dominator in certain dual lanes, especially with the new snowball
i say this because i recently got owned by a tusk undying offlane and it felt like there was nothing our safelane could do
Walrus punch works against BKB.
it goes through both bkb and linkens actually
Didn't know about the linkens. I had to play the hero as part of the 10 hero challenge and found that it fits my playstyle. The walrus punch is pretty good against heroes that BKB and jump into fights.
yeah you would think it would be blocked but i guess because it's an attack modifier it goes right through.
On June 04 2015 15:29 drew-chan wrote: So at this point do we just give TI5 to secret?
this argument again fml if we give ti winners based off results 3 fucking months before we should have given it to dk and vg would have placed worse than fnatic!
On June 04 2015 15:29 drew-chan wrote: So at this point do we just give TI5 to secret?
there is no way what u are saying makes any sense..meta will shift till TI5 and anything can happen at TI5 ..noone knew that newbee would adapt meta soo fast
Toffees needs to learn how to actually say words and not just keep up his patter He's honestly a worse version of Ayesee circa a year ago. At least Ayesee was speaking intelligible English even if it didn't have much relevance to the game at hand.
On June 04 2015 15:39 Nocticate wrote: Toffees needs to learn how to actually say words and not just keep up his patter He's honestly a worse version of Ayesee circa a year ago. At least Ayesee was speaking intelligible English even if it didn't have much relevance to the game at hand.
he's actually a worse version of zyori i'd say
either way i wish it were just a winter solo cast; i don't even care that winter doesn't do play by play
On June 04 2015 15:41 trifecta wrote: Alliance were the only favorite to win TI? How dominant was ig before ti2?
Na'Vi and Alliance were quite even. IG and LGD same with ti2
Definetly not, Alliance were heavy favorites, going in, there were serious doubts about Navi even getting close to a title a couple months before TI4. Then they won a chinese LAN (from the lower bracket), where [A] wasnt present, and the people started thinking they have a shot.
Obviously when the finals took place, the odds evened out for a number of reasons, but going in betting on [a] getting top 2 or 4 was a lock, while Navi, was a bit of a relief, that they could step up their game.
People really need to watch the chinese stream. They just had an interview with Puppey, just caught the last part, where they talked about the meta and the TI5 playin. He thinks CDEC will qualify and MVP should, but its close between the other teams.
i mean, everyone thought secret was invincible after dac group stages when s4 and zai played out of their minds. they have a good shot at ti5 but i don't think anyone thought newbee was going to win after nearly losing out at ti4 group stages; shit can still go down
On June 04 2015 15:41 trifecta wrote: Alliance were the only favorite to win TI? How dominant was ig before ti2?
Na'Vi and Alliance were quite even. IG and LGD same with ti2
Definetly not, Alliance were heavy favorites, going in, there were serious doubts about Navi even getting close to a title a couple months before TI4. Then they won a chinese LAN (from the lower bracket), where [A] wasnt present, and the people started thinking they have a shot.
Obviously when the finals took place, the odds evened out for a number of reasons, but going in betting on [a] getting top 2 or 4 was a lock, while Navi, was a bit of a relief, that they could step up their game.
If you go back to this time before TI3, Na'Vi was winning every tournament they entered. They won 3 out of 4 tournaments in july and didn't go to the 4th (Starladder) despite getting first in groups because the finals conflicted with going to China I believe.
Liquiddota had them number one in the west power rank.
On June 04 2015 15:57 eX Killy wrote: i mean, everyone thought secret was invincible after dac group stages when s4 and zai played out of their minds. they have a good shot at ti5 but i don't think anyone thought newbee was going to win after nearly losing out at ti4 group stages; shit can still go down
And some teams deal better with drawn out tournaments. EG (or TI4 Nb) for example does considerably better when there are a lot of games and ppd gets to adapt to the tournament meta.
On June 04 2015 15:41 trifecta wrote: Alliance were the only favorite to win TI? How dominant was ig before ti2?
Na'Vi and Alliance were quite even. IG and LGD same with ti2
Definetly not, Alliance were heavy favorites, going in, there were serious doubts about Navi even getting close to a title a couple months before TI4. Then they won a chinese LAN (from the lower bracket), where [A] wasnt present, and the people started thinking they have a shot.
Obviously when the finals took place, the odds evened out for a number of reasons, but going in betting on [a] getting top 2 or 4 was a lock, while Navi, was a bit of a relief, that they could step up their game.
If you go back to this time before TI3, Na'Vi was winning every tournament they entered. They won 3 out of 4 tournaments in july and didn't go to the 4th (Starladder) despite getting first in groups because the finals conflicted with going to China I believe.
Liquiddota had them number one in the west power rank.
On June 04 2015 15:57 eX Killy wrote: i mean, everyone thought secret was invincible after dac group stages when s4 and zai played out of their minds. they have a good shot at ti5 but i don't think anyone thought newbee was going to win after nearly losing out at ti4 group stages; shit can still go down
And some teams deal better with drawn out tournaments. EG (or TI4 Nb) for example does considerably better when there are a lot of games and ppd gets to adapt to the tournament meta.
You are right, they got invited to a tournament in China and didn't attend to SL because of that.
Are you really calling Secret TI5 winners already? Haven't you learned anything from the past? They haven't even been dominating for very long, there's been far more seemingly unstoppable teams before.
On June 04 2015 16:05 Mouzone wrote: Are you really calling Secret TI5 winners already? Haven't you learned anything from the past? They haven't even been dominating for very long, there's been far more seemingly unstoppable teams before.
Please man, Secret #1 team ever when they couldn't win a tournament.
Now that they got one big tournament win, clearly they'll win every TI.
On June 04 2015 16:05 Mouzone wrote: Are you really calling Secret TI5 winners already? Haven't you learned anything from the past? They haven't even been dominating for very long, there's been far more seemingly unstoppable teams before.
It is too late, everyone is riding Secret's hype train...chooo chooo
On June 04 2015 16:05 Mouzone wrote: Are you really calling Secret TI5 winners already? Haven't you learned anything from the past? They haven't even been dominating for very long, there's been far more seemingly unstoppable teams before.
both games have started early, just fyi. lgd vs secret has no sounds though so i was surprised when i tabbed over and theyve pretty much finished drafting
On June 04 2015 15:57 eX Killy wrote: i mean, everyone thought secret was invincible after dac group stages when s4 and zai played out of their minds. they have a good shot at ti5 but i don't think anyone thought newbee was going to win after nearly losing out at ti4 group stages; shit can still go down
You can't take people seriously when they predict this early anyway. Way too many teams can upset each other at any given moment. Sure calling top 4 could be pretty reliable, but saying OMG give Secret TI5 aegis now is just silly.
So much money on the line you can bet your ass teams are analyzing and coming up with counters nonstop. Saving strats until TI5 could honestly be viable if you know for sure its dominant.
Secret demolishes LGD so hard. LGD doesn't know how to play when they aren't able to exploit enemy throws and poor drafts, which Secret, of course, don't do.
I think the issue Chinese teams face is - there's simply no team that plays the way Secret does in China, especially not this level of Enigma, Chen, etc. I've never seen a Chinese 4th come even within inches of Puppey's Enigma and Chen. They just don't know how to play against it because they have never practiced against it.
Secret has now, what, a 70-80% win rate vs. Chinese teams? Still not Alliance level though, they were 28-0 vs. Chinese teams till DK ended their streak.
iG vs. Na'Vi is actually going to decide whether Na'Vi goes out. Both teams are without wins, but iG has yet to play CDEC, while Na'Vi's final opponent is LGD.
Well, Luo playing out of his mind. He and 430 are now actually the best players on iG, which is pretty sad when you think about what they hoped to get out of Burning.
I'm not sure if there's some form of ego or hierarchy going on with casters. During the TI5 Eu qualifiers playoffs, i don't recall ODpixel casting any of them. Instead I get tobi and co. I think many would have liked odpixel to be casting? He is easily everyone's favourite caster now.
On June 04 2015 17:48 DucK- wrote: I'm not sure if there's some form of ego or hierarchy going on with casters. During the TI5 Eu qualifiers playoffs, i don't recall ODpixel casting any of them. Instead I get tobi and co. I think many would have liked odpixel to be casting? He is easily everyone's favourite caster now.
remember the time KOTLguy first started casting ? yeah OD is getting the same hype from reddit
he's not everybodies favorite and LD is still better
Just saw secret draft. How is cdec suppose to ever win when they only have lina to clear mines, since they have 3 melee and 1 short range hero. Add that they don't exactly have the tools against pl?
On June 04 2015 17:52 DucK- wrote: Just saw secret draft. How is cdec suppose to ever win when they only have lina to clear mines, since they have 3 melee and 1 short range hero. Add that they don't exactly have the tools against pl?
IG is winning, but Burning has seemed like nothing but a liability. He's acting like he doesn't understand the Diffusal Blade, or forgot that Blink uses mana.
On June 04 2015 17:54 Evander Berry Wall wrote: IG is winning, but Burning has seemed like nothing but a liability. He's acting like he doesn't understand the Diffusal Blade, or forgot that Blink uses mana.
He's 12/3/6, and that was that one fight when he jumped in after they are 20k ahead He's not been at his best, but give the guy some credit at least
On June 04 2015 17:54 Evander Berry Wall wrote: IG is winning, but Burning has seemed like nothing but a liability. He's acting like he doesn't understand the Diffusal Blade, or forgot that Blink uses mana.
On June 04 2015 17:48 DucK- wrote: I'm not sure if there's some form of ego or hierarchy going on with casters. During the TI5 Eu qualifiers playoffs, i don't recall ODpixel casting any of them. Instead I get tobi and co. I think many would have liked odpixel to be casting? He is easily everyone's favourite caster now.
remember the time KOTLguy first started casting ? yeah OD is getting the same hype from reddit
he's not everybodies favorite and LD is still better
You will never be part of SomethingAwful and be invited to TI by SA poster Valve employees which kickstarts a Kickstarter and carry an indie studio reputation. :'( (LD is pretty awful and got it all handed to him for being right place ight time)
On June 04 2015 17:52 DucK- wrote: Just saw secret draft. How is cdec suppose to ever win when they only have lina to clear mines, since they have 3 melee and 1 short range hero. Add that they don't exactly have the tools against pl?
How does one ever win Secret?
That's just an extremely biased fanboy statement that makes even posters like me who actually digests and sometimes support your opinions just want to ignore you.
On June 04 2015 17:52 DucK- wrote: Just saw secret draft. How is cdec suppose to ever win when they only have lina to clear mines, since they have 3 melee and 1 short range hero. Add that they don't exactly have the tools against pl?
How does one ever win Secret?
That's just an extremely biased fanboy statement that makes even posters like me who actually digests and sometimes support your opinions just want to ignore you.
On June 04 2015 17:52 DucK- wrote: Just saw secret draft. How is cdec suppose to ever win when they only have lina to clear mines, since they have 3 melee and 1 short range hero. Add that they don't exactly have the tools against pl?
How does one ever win Secret?
That's just an extremely biased fanboy statement that makes even posters like me who actually digests and sometimes support your opinions just want to ignore you.
But it's a legitimate question.
Answer: Play better than them on the day? The same way you beat any team, really
On June 04 2015 17:52 DucK- wrote: Just saw secret draft. How is cdec suppose to ever win when they only have lina to clear mines, since they have 3 melee and 1 short range hero. Add that they don't exactly have the tools against pl?
How does one ever win Secret?
That's just an extremely biased fanboy statement that makes even posters like me who actually digests and sometimes support your opinions just want to ignore you.
On June 04 2015 17:52 DucK- wrote: Just saw secret draft. How is cdec suppose to ever win when they only have lina to clear mines, since they have 3 melee and 1 short range hero. Add that they don't exactly have the tools against pl?
How does one ever win Secret?
That's just an extremely biased fanboy statement that makes even posters like me who actually digests and sometimes support your opinions just want to ignore you.
But it's a legitimate question.
Answer: Play better than them on the day? The same way you beat any team, really
I'm looking for a drafting answer, given that Secret has basically out-drafted every team they've played according to people's reactions, even when they draft a techies.
On June 04 2015 17:54 Evander Berry Wall wrote: IG is winning, but Burning has seemed like nothing but a liability. He's acting like he doesn't understand the Diffusal Blade, or forgot that Blink uses mana.
He's 12/3/6, and that was that one fight when he jumped in after they are 20k ahead He's not been at his best, but give the guy some credit at least
yea,his performance was pretty good in this game..liked the picks from ig too ..and u are expecting credits from a guy who is bashing him ..and people who are saying burning is playing bad have no clue about ig's current state or they are just busy riding winning team train ..
I wonder if techies might become a brood pick. You pick it to sit in your offlane and shut down a safelane. You get their safelane T1 tower and invade their jungle. Soon their jungle is a no-go zone unless you have a gem or 234872 sentries. Then you can just outfarm them.
I mean there wasnt like a single hero from CDEC in their own jungle for so long after T1 safelane fell. You could see how they tried to make play constantly towards secrets jungle rather than trying to retake their own. And graphs were going constantly up for secret even with no kills happening. You dont even need to win fights convincingly when you deny them all thay farm.
techies is definitely like a brood except instead of feeding on supports and the jungle he feeds on melee heroes and whoever happens to walk into good spots
i used to be a dirty brood picker but i would also like that hero removed from the game
On June 04 2015 18:10 Kreb wrote: I wonder if techies might become a brood pick. You pick it to sit in your offlane and shut down a safelane. You get their safelane T1 tower and invade their jungle. Soon their jungle is a no-go zone unless you have a gem or 234872 sentries. Then you can just outfarm them.
I mean there wasnt like a single hero from CDEC in their own jungle for so long after T1 safelane fell. You could see how they tried to make play constantly towards secrets jungle rather than trying to retake their own. And graphs were going constantly up for secret even with no kills happening.
nah that somehow the lane got demolished by techies + tusk
however without tusk support i doubt techies would have done what he has done
On June 04 2015 18:10 Kreb wrote: I wonder if techies might become a brood pick. You pick it to sit in your offlane and shut down a safelane. You get their safelane T1 tower and invade their jungle. Soon their jungle is a no-go zone unless you have a gem or 234872 sentries. Then you can just outfarm them.
I mean there wasnt like a single hero from CDEC in their own jungle for so long after T1 safelane fell. You could see how they tried to make play constantly towards secrets jungle rather than trying to retake their own. And graphs were going constantly up for secret even with no kills happening.
nah that somehow the lane got demolished by techies + tusk
however without tusk support i doubt techies would have done what he has done
On June 04 2015 18:10 Kreb wrote: I wonder if techies might become a brood pick. You pick it to sit in your offlane and shut down a safelane. You get their safelane T1 tower and invade their jungle. Soon their jungle is a no-go zone unless you have a gem or 234872 sentries. Then you can just outfarm them.
I mean there wasnt like a single hero from CDEC in their own jungle for so long after T1 safelane fell. You could see how they tried to make play constantly towards secrets jungle rather than trying to retake their own. And graphs were going constantly up for secret even with no kills happening.
nah that somehow the lane got demolished by techies + tusk
however without tusk support i doubt techies would have done what he has done
On June 04 2015 18:10 Kreb wrote: I wonder if techies might become a brood pick. You pick it to sit in your offlane and shut down a safelane. You get their safelane T1 tower and invade their jungle. Soon their jungle is a no-go zone unless you have a gem or 234872 sentries. Then you can just outfarm them.
I mean there wasnt like a single hero from CDEC in their own jungle for so long after T1 safelane fell. You could see how they tried to make play constantly towards secrets jungle rather than trying to retake their own. And graphs were going constantly up for secret even with no kills happening.
nah that somehow the lane got demolished by techies + tusk
however without tusk support i doubt techies would have done what he has done
tiny/techies works too my friends do it sometimes
can you throw heroes into mines ?
not directly but you can throw techies into heroes when he has suicide up
you can also have techies stand directly on top of his own mines and then throw heroes onto techies
Hm so I hope Secret gets to choose who they wanna face in quarters. If it's 1st vs 3rd it's actually not that favorable to have won their group as I think Empire will be a lot tougher then ehome or C9 in a real BO3. I mean Empire either suck or are completely brilliant while the other 2 teams are more predictable and should be easier to prepare for.
On June 04 2015 18:10 Kreb wrote: I wonder if techies might become a brood pick. You pick it to sit in your offlane and shut down a safelane. You get their safelane T1 tower and invade their jungle. Soon their jungle is a no-go zone unless you have a gem or 234872 sentries. Then you can just outfarm them.
I mean there wasnt like a single hero from CDEC in their own jungle for so long after T1 safelane fell. You could see how they tried to make play constantly towards secrets jungle rather than trying to retake their own. And graphs were going constantly up for secret even with no kills happening.
nah that somehow the lane got demolished by techies + tusk
however without tusk support i doubt techies would have done what he has done
tiny/techies works too my friends do it sometimes
can you throw heroes into mines ?
not directly but you can throw techies into heroes when he has suicide up
ah yeah that's what i thought we used to do that back on wc3 dota
would have been great if it's possible to throw people at mines lol
On June 04 2015 18:16 sweetkay wrote: Hm so I hope Secret gets to choose who they wanna face in quarters. If it's 1st vs 3rd it's actually not that favorable to have won their group as I think Empire will be a lot tougher then ehome or C9 in a real BO3. I mean Empire either suck or are completely brilliant while the other 2 teams are more predictable and should be easier to prepare for.
Anyway looks like navi is out. Shows you how important artstyle is, plus they were playing with a very foreign standin. Wonder if artstyle is on the plane though. Would be a stupid trip.
Group winner being allowed to choose even the 2nd placing team from the other group would seem silly to me. It seems more likely to me that they would be able to choose from the 3rd or 4th team. That way you are still rewarding the group winner but you are not making all the other placings in the group completely worthless.
On June 04 2015 18:20 spudde123 wrote: Group winner being allowed to choose even the 2nd placing team from the other group would seem silly to me. It seems more likely to me that they would be able to choose from the 3rd or 4th team. That way you are still rewarding the group winner but you are not making all the other placings in the group completely worthless.
Honestly, I would prefer it if they get seed to the semi-final straight.This way we can have BO5 all the way to the final.
You dont need to pair techies with some combo hero. You just need to ensure either that their safelane is weak enough (generally with melees or low range heroes so they cant harass/kill him without getting close to him) or that you support him with whatever you have to make sure that he gets T1 and some basic levels up to lvl ~7-9 or so. If you can get to that spot its very hard to not be forced to give up your jungle.
But its still just speculation really. I doubt pro teams would start doing that even if it was viable.
On June 04 2015 18:20 spudde123 wrote: Group winner being allowed to choose even the 2nd placing team from the other group would seem silly to me. It seems more likely to me that they would be able to choose from the 3rd or 4th team. That way you are still rewarding the group winner but you are not making all the other placings in the group completely worthless.
Honestly, I would prefer it if they get seed to the semi-final straight.
On June 04 2015 18:40 Evander Berry Wall wrote: I think there's a pretty strong case to be made that LGD is the 4th best team in the world.
they always shine on LAN's as yao is more of a LAN player than online...he always pulls some awesome plays on LAN's for all the flak he gets on his online performance
On June 04 2015 18:40 Evander Berry Wall wrote: I think there's a pretty strong case to be made that LGD is the 4th best team in the world.
Well either them or C9. LGD might be more consistent but C9 can still pull great runs in stacked tournaments. They just have to dodge EG in elimination series
On June 04 2015 19:34 Caladbolg wrote: Luo is the fucking best player on iG even if it's depressing for an iG fan to watch the supports and Burning play badly.
I liked how Faith and ChuaN played this game honestly, but yeah Luo is MVP for sure.
On June 04 2015 19:34 Caladbolg wrote: Luo is the fucking best player on iG even if it's depressing for an iG fan to watch the supports and Burning play badly.
luo is a beast since long time...but i can't agree with your point of anyone playing badly on IG...their strategies are just not working ...sometimes their teamwork is top notch and then at next moment it is like pub strat...and they need some more time ..hope KingJ can work on IG's strats and gameplans.
On June 04 2015 19:34 Caladbolg wrote: Luo is the fucking best player on iG even if it's depressing for an iG fan to watch the supports and Burning play badly.
430 is absolutely beast and it all comes down to whether he is getting a good start or not for IG..i hope BurNing finds his form back tho..if somehow he get his DK form back,i will be happy for this team.
All of iG are really impressive players who were second best team in China only a month ago, and we will definitely see good results from them soon enoough.
On June 04 2015 20:45 zeru wrote: I get picking ehome over empire... but not over c9. o_O
Were they actually allowed to pick c9? Top team being allowed to choose from the bottom half of the teams that advance is a format I've seen before, but I have never seen anyone use a format where the top team could choose whoever they want (even a 2nd place finisher).
But even if they were allowed to choose c9, at the Summit at least s4 seemed to think that c9 was good and he expected them to get far in the tournament. What would make EHOME a more dangerous opponent than c9?
On June 04 2015 20:45 zeru wrote: I get picking ehome over empire... but not over c9. o_O
they probably scrim each other alot and know each others playstyles alot .. and usually those who play with each other has a chance to upset the other team
i'm not sure .. it's also weird if they picked to eliminate one of the western teams where they know them
EPT
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MarsTV Dota 2 League 2015![[image loading]](http://www.eumind.net/.images/common/browsing_article.gif)
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MarsTV EN | 
MarsTV RU | 
HuoMaoTV![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/MM4jy.png)
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Vici Gaming - Hao, Super, iceiceice, Fenrir, fy![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/fyBaJqb.png)
EHOME - Yang, Cty, rOtK, LaNm, DDC![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/wD2Ig6t.png)
Newbee - Rabbit, Mu, June, Banana, SanSheng![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/VyCfMUS.png)
Cloud 9 - EternaLEnVy, FATA-, bOne7, BigDaddy, MiSeRy![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/YLKpSAB.png)
Team Empire - Silent, Resolut1on, yoky, ALWAYSWANNAFLY, ALOHADANCE![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/HB7YzHR.png)
Invictus Gaming - BurNIng, Ferrari_430, Luo, ChuaN, Faith![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/kUSMKuU.png)
LGD Gaming - Sylar, Maybe, Yao, xiao8, MMY!![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/rCMbFv0.png)
CDEC Gaming - Agressif, Shiki, Xz, Garder, Q![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/wQ6S72G.png)
Natus Vincere - XBOCT, Dendi, Funn1k, ArtStyle, SoNNeikO![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/2elQCaH.png)
Team Secret - Arteezy, s4, zai, KuroKy, Puppey![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/xYABn.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/bv8Kw.png)
Did na'vi ever win a game vs secret ? i just saw a stats and it's 11-0 for secret :-
not only afterwards ![[image loading]](http://s017.radikal.ru/i425/1506/ee/da6e945693bf.png)
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