EPT[HyperX D2L] Western Challenge - Page 163
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goody153
44237 Posts
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CosmicSpiral
United States15275 Posts
On April 16 2014 05:16 Sn0_Man wrote: No it can't. When Spectre can farm all 3 lanes and a jungle at the same time while creep cutting to prevent any pushes in any lane all while staying in a safe location, then it could be called an issue. Honestly I wouldn't give a damn about Radiance Naga if it wasn't for the fact that you get so little from killing her illusions preemptively. Characters who can suck the farm out of the map are balanced as long as they have to take some type of risk in order to do so. On April 16 2014 05:14 SKC wrote: The point is that it isn't an issue. CK has always been fine. Manta is weak enough as it is. PL is fine, he was an issue for other reasons and tweaking his illusions was better than making them cost gold which would absolutelly destroy the hero. Spectre is absolutelly not a balance issue right now and hasn't been on for ages. Who said Spectre was a balance issue? Her laning is weak enough that she needs two supports to farm it safely. But once she does get it, Radiance completely changes the dynamic of a teamfight. Most games with Spectre come down to how quickly she farms it. | ||
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SKC
Brazil18828 Posts
On April 16 2014 05:24 CosmicSpiral wrote: Honestly I wouldn't give a damn about Radiance Naga if it wasn't for the fact that you get so little from killing her illusions preemptively. Who said Spectre was a balance issue? Her laning is weak enough that she needs two supports to farm it safely. But once she does get it, Radiance completely changes the dynamic of a teamfight. Most games with Spectre come down to how quickly she farms it. Noone "defined" issue, but it's ussually implied on something being too strong or weak. Rad on Spectre is gamechanging. So is Blink on Bat, BKB on a shitload of heroes, etc. That's fine. Radiance is a very expensive item with a bad build up, it's supposed to be game changing. It's also like that for LD. Making illusions cost gold isn't even meaningfull for Spectre since illusions aren't killed most of the time. She's just not relevant at all to the original question. | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
The issue with radiance right now is that it allows one specific hero to unfairly suck farm out of the map in an overly safe manner. On a spectre it's merely a damage item. So what? there's lots of counterplay to that. Yes you farm with it on spectre too but you don't farm like a naga does. PL still farms at about the same pace with yasha -> diffusal -> manta as he does with radiance because his illusions don't last as long to use radiance with and work much better with right clicks. TB may be too good with radiance although that doesn't seem to be the common "pub" build with him, but he's not in CM. Radiance the item isn't hte problem, its how it interacts with naga. Radiance in fact isn't good enough on so many heroes that it's received like 5 consecutive buffs. (2 buffs to burn dmg, one buff to burn aoe, one to right click dmg. Okay 4 buffs). | ||
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Dexington
Canada7276 Posts
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CosmicSpiral
United States15275 Posts
On April 16 2014 05:28 SKC wrote: Noone "defined" issue, but it's ussually implied on something being too strong or weak. Rad on Spectre is gamechanging. So is Blink on Bat, BKB on a shitload of heroes, etc. That's fine. Radiance is a very expensive item with a bad build up, it's supposed to be game changing. It's also like that for LD. Making illusions cost gold isn't even meaningfull for Spectre since illusions aren't killed most of the time. She's just not relevant at all to the original question. Radiance on LD is much different as there are severe consequences to losing your bear. What consequences are there for losing an Naga illusion? Blink on many heroes is less game-changing with the exception of maybe Magnus, Puck, and Tide. Radiance + Haunt not only forces the enemy team to approach fights differently, but it also preemptively punishes hero picks (low HP heroes and non-BKB carries are particularly vulnerable regardless of positioning) and forces players to reconsider their item choices. I didn't advocate illusions giving you gold when they are killed. My point is that Radiance on Naga is less about how OP Naga but how illusions function in this game. On April 16 2014 05:31 Sn0_Man wrote: Ur not thinking about this right Cosmic. The issue with radiance right now is that it allows one specific hero to unfairly suck farm out of the map in an overly safe manner. On a spectre it's merely a damage item. So what? there's lots of counterplay to that. Yes you farm with it on spectre too but you don't farm like a naga does. PL still farms at about the same pace with yasha -> diffusal -> manta as he does with radiance because his illusions don't last as long to use radiance with and work much better with right clicks. TB may be too good with radiance although that doesn't seem to be the common "pub" build with him, but he's not in CM. Radiance the item isn't hte problem, its how it interacts with naga. Radiance in fact isn't good enough on so many heroes that it's received like 5 consecutive buffs. (2 buffs to burn dmg, one buff to burn aoe, one to right click dmg. Okay 4 buffs). There is no problem with Radiance right now. Spectre is balanced. Also Alliance should've went mid Jakiro.  | ||
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SKC
Brazil18828 Posts
You already mentioned 3 heroes Blink is absurdly strong on (and Bat is definatelly one of them as well). That's more than the amount of heroes you mentioned Radiance is absurdly strong on. I don't even know what you are advocating tbh, since you jumped in the middle of a discussion and apparently isn't on either side. Are just saying that Radiance is very good on Spectre as well? Yes, the way illusions work is part of the reason why Naga is strong. It's always like that. The way jungle work was a reason why TI2 Lycan was so strong, so they nerfed the way he interact with the jungle, not the jungle itself. You can always change either a native game mechanic or the way the hero interacts with it. Unless you want to change a mechanic for other reasons, like the most recent jungle change, it's almost always far better to change how a single hero interacts with said mechanic. | ||
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CosmicSpiral
United States15275 Posts
On April 16 2014 06:01 SKC wrote: It's only an issue on how Naga's illusions function in this game. It doesn't apply to any other hero. Therefore is easier to change naga's illusions. Tweak their numbers, make them easier to kill and suddenly she isn't such a issue. There is no need to butcher either all illusion heroes or all radiance carriers, as limited as they already are. It applied to Phantom Lancer and was a huge reason why he was a problem when the accumulated power creep caught up to him. While Radiance itself did not make the hero 'overpowered', access to multiple illusions that could be independently moved + the current meta did make him top-tier. On April 16 2014 06:01 SKC wrote:You already mentioned 3 heroes Blink is absurdly strong on (and Bat is definitely one of them as well). That's more than the amount of heroes you mentioned Radiance is absurdly strong on. Bat doesn't have a massive AoE disable that punishes slightly poor positioning. I didn't say anything was wrong with Radiance. On April 16 2014 06:01 SKC wrote:I don't even know what you are advocating tbh, since you jumped in the middle of a discussion and apparently isn't on either side. Are just saying that Radiance is very good on Spectre as well? I don't think the issue of Radiance Naga is necessarily a problem with Naga. It's a short-sighted view that ignores how her low risk, high reward playstyle with Radiance is a function of Dota 2 illusion mechanics. Specifically, constant access to them (Naga has only a 10 second cooldown if her illusions stay alive for the full duration) gives her enormous advantages that most heroes cannot match. They allow free scouting, safe farming, safe lane pushing, safe damage to enemy heroes, and will constantly get stronger and stronger as the game progresses. However, killing them gives you no direct benefits. And this creates a obvious problem. How do you balance them? Some heroes only get access to illusions in bursts but Spectre is still extremely strong with Radiance in a way that other hard carries are not with equivalent items. Meanwhile many illusion heroes are either bad or just inferior choices. PL lost 1/5th of his illusion damage, got his Spirit Lance nerfed, and went through massive meta changes before disappearing. CK was never a universally strong pickup and is considered bad by many pros. Morphling is a viable pick but still suffers from Weaver syndrome. Dark Seer makes illusions but isn't really defined by Wall of Replica. Terrorblade...ugh. In short, Naga is just symptomatic of the real issue. As long as illusions stay this way you'll never have a strong illusion-based hero who allows a lot of counterplay because illusions in themselves don't offer a lot of counterplay. You'll have your Naga/Spectre/Morphling (whose impact is defined by how quickly they have access to a certain item) or your CK/PL (who aren't very good picks atm). On April 16 2014 06:01 SKC wrote:Yes, the way illusions work is part of the reason why Naga is strong. It's always like that. The way jungle work was a reason why TI2 Lycan was so strong, so they nerfed the way he interact with the jungle, not the jungle itself. You can always change either a native game mechanic or the way the hero interacts with it. Unless you want to change a mechanic for other reasons, like the most recent jungle change, it's almost always far better to change how a single hero interacts with said mechanic. I don't think Icefrog can ever properly balance illusion-based heroes for the reasons I stated above. | ||
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Faruko
Chile34173 Posts
Less damage done, mroe damage taken, they take longer to recast (Except at lower levels) and they have a reduced duration... i dont know, its a nerf, but its not really one that could potentially kill the Hero as a Carry (of course this is just the v1.0 of what i think it would be a decent balance, maybe theres more than meet the eyes) Radiance is still a problem, but the real problem lies on the illusions, not the item itself IMO, maybe reduce the amount of health they have (keeping the damage taken factor) ? im no icefrog and i dont know all the variables, they are just my 2 cents | ||
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SKC
Brazil18828 Posts
You are wrong in your very first assumption, that heroes should be balanced. That's far from it. Hero power should cycle. That's what makes it interesting. People loved the first time PL was picked, people loved the first times Naga was picked. Everyone knows how bullshit they are, but they are diferent. Of course they get annoying if they are dominant (PL wasn't even that), then they get nerfed, everyone forgets about them and they start wishing they would come back to the metagame. It's perfectly fine to have diferent strenghts in heroes. The idea that IceFrog cant "properly balance" illusion heroes is meaningless since there is no proper balance to aim for. PL wasn't nerfed because he was broken, his winrate or pick rate wasn't particularly high. Balance wise he was probally fine. Also, when Naga was picked on TI3, it was not because of her illusions. If anything I would argue that Song is the real villain that kills "counter-play" as you put it. At least she can't kill your raxes during song anymore. Overall, you are being too logical about it, if that makes sense. Don't think about how to make this bullshit mechanic not bullshit. Think about how to make the game better while keeping these bullshit mechanics. Because that's what makes the game interesting. There's no way to "properly" balance Invoker, yet he is an amazing hero. About Blink on bat, your Blink timing on that hero is far, far more game breaking than Blink on Tide. Bat can completelly crush the game and Force + Blink Bat is one of the strongest lategame threats now matter what your team is. Bat is also far more reliant on it, the increase is power after Blink for Bat is greater than probally any other hero. Tide is more like SK or ES. It's such a gamebreaking item for Tide that pros skip them for other items quite often. | ||
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CosmicSpiral
United States15275 Posts
On April 16 2014 08:34 SKC wrote: That low risk, safe damage, split pushing, taking over the map is what Naga (and other illusion heroes) are. Seems like you don't like their hero design, so the only solution is a rework. You can't make them function like other heroes. Just like Broodmother or Lycan will also be an obnoxious prick as long as they are strong in a certain patch. You would love Zet. Heroes are not "fair". Heroes breaking game rules are part of the game. Think Wisp. The only other illusion hero that does that is Phantom Lancer. I like Naga. Her moveset is cool. I don't like playing her once I have Radiance. On April 16 2014 08:34 SKC wrote:You are wrong in your very first assumption, that heroes should be balanced. That's far from it. Hero power should cycle. That's what makes it interesting. People loved the first time PL was picked, people loved the first time Naga was picked. Everyone knows how bullshit they are, but they are different. Of course they get annoying if they are dominant (PL wasn't even that), then they get nerfed, everyone forgets about them and they start wishing they would come back to the metagame. It's perfectly fine to have diferent strenghts in heroes. The idea that IceFrog cant "properly balance" illusion heroes is meaningless since there is no proper balance to aim for. PL wasn't nerfed because he was broken, his winrate or pick rate wasn't particularly high. Balance wise he was probally fine. There are simple reasons why balance is a priority in designing a game. A) People want to play what they want. A balanced game gives them the options to play what they want. One of the most important things a game must provide is the experience of being in control. Hero cycling does the exact opposite. B) People don't want to choose winning over having fun. Having heroes that are clearly superior to the rest of the cast clashes with that. It makes winning and having fun seem like different objectives. C) A lack of balance feeds into the worst impulses of the community. People don't take responsibility for their losses if they can believe it was due to something outside of their own play. People ignore/reject wins if those heroes are picked. People will split up into vocal factions regarding those heroes. People will deliberately look to ruin other's experiences with those heroes. Bad feelings generated from this far outlast the initial high of seeing a hero become newly popular. It doesn't matter if perfect balance is never achieved (perfect balance is only possible if all heroes are the same in every sense). Hero cycles shouldn't be taken as some sort of teleological imperative. No one knew PL was "bullshit" when he initially started getting popular. It took 8 patches of buffs up to 6.75 and even then, many pros thought he was too weak to warrant play. On April 16 2014 08:34 SKC wrote:Also, when Naga was picked on TI3, it was not because of her illusions. If anything I would argue that Song is the real villain that kills "counter-play" as you put it. At least she can't kill your raxes during song anymore. Song can be adjusted in many aspects without making it too weak, and it is not strong enough currently to warrant a sharp rise in support Naga appearances. Radiance illusions running around doing what they want without consequence is a bigger problem that cannot be solved so easily. On April 16 2014 08:34 SKC wrote:Overall, you are being too logical about it, if that makes sense. Don't think about how to make this bullshit mechanic not bullshit. Think about how to make the game better while keeping these bullshit mechanics. Because that's what makes the game interesting. There's no way to "properly" balance Invoker, yet he is an amazing hero. I want Radiance illusions that can't be thrown out willy-nilly because they give me far more than they cost. I want Naga to not play like Farming Simulator 3000 after the 15 minute mark. I want illusion heroes to be more than this all-or-nothing gambit that they seem to become in Dota 2. I don't see how they can't be because again, regularly getting independent illusions grants you a host of advantages that far outstrip the advantages of other heroes. Directly nerfing her illusions alone just creates another PL situation. The way to "properly balance" Invoker is to make every use of a spell an important decision that feeds into a general playstyle, pretty much the way you balance every hero. So far it's been done very well. All his spells are powerful without doing too many things at once and Quas-Wex/Quas-Exort have distinct strengths and weaknesses. On April 16 2014 08:34 SKC wrote:About Blink on bat, your Blink timing on that hero is far, far more game breaking than Blink on Tide. Bat can completelly crush the game and Force + Blink Bat is one of the strongest lategame threats now matter what your team is. Bat is also far more reliant on it, the increase is power after Blink for Bat is greater than probally any other hero. Tide is more like SK or ES. It's such a gamebreaking item for Tide that pros skip them for other items quite often. Tide was a bad example. Magnus and Puck can lock down multiple opponents with their ultimates and completely change a teamfight. Batrider usually needs to isolate a target and take out immediately so the fight starts to be a 4v5. In addition he needs to wait for FS before he can do it safely against a team push. | ||
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goody153
44237 Posts
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
On April 17 2014 04:19 goody153 wrote: How many games did fnatic lose this patch with tiny-IO ? i could only remember their game vs alliance last month i think where they lost www.datdota.com | ||
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goody153
44237 Posts
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goody153
44237 Posts
why can't i access the site and i am only having problem with that site damnbut ty dude | ||
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clusen
Germany8702 Posts
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
Fnatic are so awesome :D | ||
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goody153
44237 Posts
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Nymzee
3929 Posts
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Talron
Germany7651 Posts
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