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http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2227602358
Avg mmr was like 4018
So I lost this game and I'm not fully sure what I could have done better. I was the AM player and I have a history of being very weak at AM play in general but I thought I played well aside from trying to sneak rosh without a buyback at a really stupid time (my team pinged and asked me to do it, though I knew it was a bad idea I tried it anyways).
While there's a techies he was pretty much a total nonfactor and I got what seemed like freefarm in lane vs a solo zeus.
Basically, safelane carry is my second weakest role with mid carry being my weakest. I'm truly awful at the hero and I really don't know why, with a 1-17 record in ranked
Item choices - Do I go treads - > battlefury, or battlefury -> treads? Should I have gone bkb though they had no real lockdown? Oh, and how do you itemize vs slark?
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SoCal8910 Posts
i think the general consensus is that treads -> battlefury is safer and more efficient because you can push the lane hard and then tackle a camp, then get back to lane without missing a CS.
i mean, without even looking at the replay, you had two peple devoted to relentlessly feeding the other side. thats a big deal.
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On March 18 2016 07:17 BluemoonSC wrote:
i think the general consensus is that treads -> battlefury is safer and more efficient because you can push the lane hard and then tackle a camp, then get back to lane without missing a CS.
i mean, without even looking at the replay, you had two peple devoted to relentlessly feeding the other side. thats a big deal.
There was also a dagon lvl 5 puck. But at a certain point after a bunch of losses that were somewhat similar to this one I have to admit that there's something wrong with my play and ignore the issues of my teammates
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Watched the first 10 min. Things to work on:
1) Buying faster. You took forever to buy start items.
2) Buying smarter start items. Quelling Blade as a start item does nothing for you here.
3) Efficiency: if you're going to commit to buying a stick, dont wait so long to get it.
4) Your last-hitting in-lane was fine (missed 1 cs you shouldve gotten). However, you need to practice last-hitting under towers. You missed a lot you could ahve gotten. Practice dropping quelling and getting better at judging how many hits is needed - whether to pull enemy creeps away from your incoming creeps - blocking your own etc.
5) You did not at any time check what level people were or what items they had bought - which is perfectly fine not to do if when playing in your team someone else is calling this out - however in a pub, obviously its a good thing to do yourself both for the immediate benefits and for practising good habits.
6) Why would you even consider going BF with brown boots in a game like this?.. A more reasonable item progression wouldve been stick->RoH-Boots->Belt->Treads-> and THEN quelling blade.
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On March 18 2016 07:46 DonDomingo wrote:
Watched the first 10 min. Things to work on:
1) Buying faster. You took forever to buy start items.
2) Buying smarter start items. Quelling Blade as a start item does nothing for you here.
3) Efficiency: if you're going to commit to buying a stick, dont wait so long to get it.
4) Your last-hitting in-lane was fine (missed 1 cs you shouldve gotten). However, you need to practice last-hitting under towers. You missed a lot you could ahve gotten. Practice dropping quelling and getting better at judging how many hits is needed - whether to pull enemy creeps away from your incoming creeps - blocking your own etc.
5) You did not at any time check what level people were or what items they had bought - which is perfectly fine not to do if when playing in your team someone else is calling this out - however in a pub, obviously its a good thing to do yourself both for the immediate benefits and for practising good habits.
6) Why would you even consider going BF with brown boots in a game like this?.. A more reasonable item progression wouldve been stick->RoH-Boots->Belt->Treads-> and THEN quelling blade.
Thanks! This is pretty much exactly what I was looking for.
On 4 - how does one do this? Just start a practice game and wait for bots to push in or is there some specific way to do it? I think missing last hits under tower is one of my most consistent issues.
On 2 I'll admit I bought the qb because I'm not totally comfortable with last-hitting, but on 6, is the key part treads first and in what circumstances would you go bfury first instead of treads (ie more passive than this one?) Oh, and where would PMS fall in that progression?
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For practice last hitting under a tower, you can triple stack your small camp in an empty lobby and alternate between farming and pulling.
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On March 18 2016 07:59 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2016 07:46 DonDomingo wrote:
Watched the first 10 min. Things to work on:
1) Buying faster. You took forever to buy start items.
2) Buying smarter start items. Quelling Blade as a start item does nothing for you here.
3) Efficiency: if you're going to commit to buying a stick, dont wait so long to get it.
4) Your last-hitting in-lane was fine (missed 1 cs you shouldve gotten). However, you need to practice last-hitting under towers. You missed a lot you could ahve gotten. Practice dropping quelling and getting better at judging how many hits is needed - whether to pull enemy creeps away from your incoming creeps - blocking your own etc.
5) You did not at any time check what level people were or what items they had bought - which is perfectly fine not to do if when playing in your team someone else is calling this out - however in a pub, obviously its a good thing to do yourself both for the immediate benefits and for practising good habits.
6) Why would you even consider going BF with brown boots in a game like this?.. A more reasonable item progression wouldve been stick->RoH-Boots->Belt->Treads-> and THEN quelling blade. Thanks! This is pretty much exactly what I was looking for. On 4 - how does one do this? Just start a practice game and wait for bots to push in or is there some specific way to do it? I think missing last hits under tower is one of my most consistent issues. On 2 I'll admit I bought the qb because I'm not totally comfortable with last-hitting, but on 6, is the key part treads first and in what circumstances would you go bfury first instead of treads (ie more passive than this one?) Oh, and where would PMS fall in that progression?
For last-hitting under towers, here's what you need to know: Towers do 100-120 dmg every 1.00 sec. Melee creeps have 2 base armor whereas ranged ones have 0. Then it becomes a matter of math (or judgement), calculating (or judging) how many times you need to hit it (and whether you not you need to drop your quelling or other dmg-increasing items). Some are impossible to get, some tricky, some pretty straight-forward. Yeah, you could load up a practice game and grind it out ^_^ Then of course, there are all the fancy tricks the execution of which seperates 8k scrubs from rtz (or any other legit carry player) bringing his a-game such as drawing creeps away for your tower to get time to hit it that one more time while having dropped your q-blade while making sure to take as little dmg as possible from the creeps by cancelling your attack backswing just right.
Speaking of attack backswing, that's also something you would benefit a lot from working on from what I saw.
As far as brown boots BF goes, there are times where that makes sense but honestly this is going to be so extremely rare that unless you insist (feel free to) there's no point in getting into it. Makes more sense to get into the decision-making behind starting and early game items.
Starting items. Depending on what you think you're going up against and which support(s) are going with you, there are a couple of standard options: 1) Stout Shield 2x Regen (1x Tango + 1x Salve or 2x Tango) (+branch) the cookie-cutter opening for when you expect an easy lane where you would consider skipping PMS 2) Stout Shield 2x Regen + Slippers of Agility for when you expect to get PMS 3) PMS + 1x Regen for when you expect an easy lane AND you want PMS early on.
Unless something went very terribly wrong draft-wise or laning-wise and you are considering things such as skipping BF going Vanguard Aquila or Vlad OR you're considering something less extreme like casual Headdress or Ring of Regen before BF (still after treads ofc!^^) - here's what you want to be thinking about:
Whether or not to PMS (unless you're a female then you have no choice): usually this boils down to whether you expect you're going to be right-clicked a lot in lane or not.
When to acquire Ring of Health: if your lane is easy (regen-wise) and you have a chance to trade favorably, bully or threaten the off-laner by getting Boots (brown or full treads), you can consider delaying your Ring of Health.
In this particular game of yours, against Techies and an off-lane Zeus, I think over-all - apart from bringing a little too little regen to lane and not getting stick and not getting treads before BF - your decisions were reasonably sound.
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SoCal8910 Posts
in addition to whether or not YOU will be right clicked a lot, its also nice if you know that you will be able to jump on an offlaner and get a couple mana breaks in.
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Australia6232 Posts
If you want to practice lasthitting under tower, the easiest way is to start an empty lobby without bots, create a manly enemy hero like sven and have it hold position behind your t2 with lv25 and a HoD/vlads.
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If you're interested and since the Coaching thing is not having students atm, just add me and we can watch that game (and other if you want of your AM games) and talk about it.
that said I think domingo said good stuff that you can work on.
+ Show Spoiler +http://steamcommunity.com/id/DvGod/
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On March 18 2016 07:46 DonDomingo wrote:
Watched the first 10 min. Things to work on:
1) Buying faster. You took forever to buy start items.
2) Buying smarter start items. Quelling Blade as a start item does nothing for you here.
3) Efficiency: if you're going to commit to buying a stick, dont wait so long to get it.
4) Your last-hitting in-lane was fine (missed 1 cs you shouldve gotten). However, you need to practice last-hitting under towers. You missed a lot you could ahve gotten. Practice dropping quelling and getting better at judging how many hits is needed - whether to pull enemy creeps away from your incoming creeps - blocking your own etc.
5) You did not at any time check what level people were or what items they had bought - which is perfectly fine not to do if when playing in your team someone else is calling this out - however in a pub, obviously its a good thing to do yourself both for the immediate benefits and for practising good habits.
6) Why would you even consider going BF with brown boots in a game like this?.. A more reasonable item progression wouldve been stick->RoH-Boots->Belt->Treads-> and THEN quelling blade.
Not really. If you're contested on your lane it's better to get quelling blade earlier(not as a starting item but right after you finish pms in most games). Look at EE playing any melee carry and unless he's completely uncontested he always get really fast quelling blades. Makes it way harder for you to get denied by the offlaner.
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On March 18 2016 14:58 Alpino wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2016 07:46 DonDomingo wrote:
Watched the first 10 min. Things to work on:
1) Buying faster. You took forever to buy start items.
2) Buying smarter start items. Quelling Blade as a start item does nothing for you here.
3) Efficiency: if you're going to commit to buying a stick, dont wait so long to get it.
4) Your last-hitting in-lane was fine (missed 1 cs you shouldve gotten). However, you need to practice last-hitting under towers. You missed a lot you could ahve gotten. Practice dropping quelling and getting better at judging how many hits is needed - whether to pull enemy creeps away from your incoming creeps - blocking your own etc.
5) You did not at any time check what level people were or what items they had bought - which is perfectly fine not to do if when playing in your team someone else is calling this out - however in a pub, obviously its a good thing to do yourself both for the immediate benefits and for practising good habits.
6) Why would you even consider going BF with brown boots in a game like this?.. A more reasonable item progression wouldve been stick->RoH-Boots->Belt->Treads-> and THEN quelling blade. Not really. If you're contested on your lane it's better to get quelling blade earlier(not as a starting item but right after you finish pms in most games). Look at EE playing any melee carry and unless he's completely uncontested he always get really fast quelling blades. Makes it way harder for you to get denied by the offlaner.
If you had bothered to actually watch his game, you would have known their offlane was a Zeus.
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if you want to practice last hitting under tower, make an empty lobby, enable cheats, create an axe bot and give him 6 hearts + max counter helix and have him sit between your t2 and t1 where he will always kill your wave
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Not sure if it was in your mind but in general on lane you should try to be far more aggressive on the offlaner. Some more regen maybe at the start, and then if you manage to mana burn the Zeus by just jumping on him on early levels he isn't a threat to you at all and won't get any farm himself. This game it's a bit more tricky because there is a Techies and you don't want to jump on top of mines, I didn't really pay enough attention to know how sure you could have been about where the mines were and how it should have influenced the way you played. But now the Zeus got quite a bit from the lane.
Also another thing in lane is that at least my impression was that you ate arc lightning way more than necessary by standing next to the creeps. If you know the Zeus is there and you can't zone him out, then you should sometimes fall back a bit from the wave and only return to get the last hit on the next creep. Otherwise you will always be eating the arc lightning when he tries to last hit. You didn't die or anything because of this, but being too low on hp takes away all the potential you could have to play aggressive.
After you got the bfury you had all the space in the world to farm your own jungle for a long while and you did that well and got way ahead. After that it just comes down to using that lead to end the game. For example there is a moment when you and Ursa take the 3rd rosh and you get the cheese. After that I think there was a fight in radiant jungle, where you backed off even though your team was coming in and you had the cheese. From what I recall it resulted in Ursa losing the aegis and you missing out on a Slark kill, and potentially even more. Often times whether you can end the game or not with a lead can come down to moments like this. Get a kill, get outer towers, enemy doesn't have any map control, you finish abyssal, get another pickoff, and suddenly game is over. Instead you missed on the kill, lost the aegis, and the game proceeded in a state where the enemy can still get farm and one pickoff on you could be disastrous.
Also another thing to consider especially after you get abyssal is where you farm on the map to get pickoffs. At that point I think you can kill every hero on the radiant side alone, and the only way you can die is if WR shackles you and they have some assistance. Can't remember exactly when Slark got the hex, that was obviously another way to threaten you. But anyway when you have abyssal often times you should consider whether you need to push out waves or whether you can even sacrifice a bit of your own farm to stay in the enemy jungle and catch the enemy when they come to farm. I didn't look closely enough to point out one particular moment where you should have moved differently on the map, but I can't recall you getting a pickoff with Abyssal outside of teamfights so it came to mind.
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honestly this is a game where as the draft ends and you're thinking about the game, you or ursa have to come up big for a relatively unconstested win.
in the early game, their team does almost nothing. and once the mines from river and/or jungle are tested and mostly gone you and your team can slowly suffocate that side of the map and make roshan trivial.
i'm just focusing on the overall strategy here. you don't want to run into a situation where you have to gather up 5 and take a teamfight late, then proceed to feel to need to hit too many targets at once, because your teammates can't do consistent damage throughout the fight.
i don't think bkb isnt an awful item when you're able to get that much farm that quickly.
for example, the miss chance, shackles, and general focus is going to be on you unless you join the fights quite late, which you can't in game like this. your supports are already a non-factor together, and your ursa is forced to actually farm lanes and jungle for a while.
the item choices themselves offer you different spikes in power. you can skip into manta after bfury to force zeus for example into a poor/safe role all on your own. the same can be said about a fast abyssal.
30 mins or less means you walk up to a lane with farm from within the treeline and solo-pickoff into tower/forced group tps each and every time. your team will get used to this playstyle and get something extra out of it too, like roshan, extra towers, jungle roaming presence (in the case of slark farming), or catchup time.
i tend to hold an opinion that LH@10 is a pretty good guage for how you can itemize, if you're not sure how your lane should play out while learning. along the same line, you can guage the increments leading up to that number.
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obviously the starting items are stout, regen -> PMS treads. it's just the norm for a reason and you'll have to live with it until a patch changes things substantially. the PMS is just there threefold to prevent you from dying to harass/tank and trade offlaner harass (in which you have the upper hand due to EXP, regen items from sideshop, manabreak, and mobility/timing)/and so you can hop into the jungle with RoH in tow if necessary.
i used to do brownboots bfury too but honestly, you should just go treads every time unless you've got a plan. it saves a lot of headache and you'll feel a lot more comfortable until you get more lanes to practice in.
in lane, you look to try and apply manabreaks early if there's an opportunity, and when creep HP is high as well as creep equilibrium good (hard to explain) you look for if you can autoattack the offlaner too obviously without missing creeps or if you do--you want the kill manabreak kill which is frankly quite easy on a zeus offlane.
treads (at around 5 mins or less) allow you to farm the wave faster (also deny faster) and better control the lane for either hard-camp side-pulls (which accelerate your farm quite a bit on AM).
the interaction between forcing the offlaner to roam/jungle and you taking the tower (also forcing someone to tp) is pretty important imo. weaker players will overcompensate, especially against an AM, or be too afraid to TP in to defend which leaves the entire lane to you and an easy 700+ GPM start.
AM is just a weird beast where his lane pressure can either skyrocket or turn into a wet paper (jungling) towel depending on the player and what they choose to do.
if you're going to QB early, make sure you have a reason to do so, as faster boots for example can do a lot more for those earlier levels, and QB early can actually screw up last hits under tower as you know. it does not affect your denying capability, and AM with boots is much much faster than zues than say, an enchantress without. force zeus to try and last hit with arc lightning instead, or miss the creep wave almost entirely while you ship more regen, yada yada.
this is getting long, but the general idea is to see where you can pressure (if it's not an awful matchup) while you're learning. then where not to pressure, such as when creep wave is currently low on HP and you cannot land the kill, etc. forcing spells puts pressure, wastes regen, forces supports, snowballs the lane, other team starts flaming the offlaner, offlaner tilts and has no items or levels, jungles instead of teamfights or roams, easier win.
tldr tips; watch some miracle- perspective games. you'll just learn a lot about control and timing if you watch closely. it's all in the details.
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I dont even understand. why do ppl need to practice last hitting under tower?
The general consensus is that if you deal below 80 dmg without a qb, always hit the creep once and let the towers do the rest of the hitting and you would always get the creep. Works for both ranged and melee.
To last hit the fucking catapult under the tower, you need to hit the catapult the 2 times prior to the last hit.
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That's like saying "Why do people practice lasthitting in lane, it's just hitting them when the creeps are low".
While in reality, most of us can become a lot better last hitters and the best way of doing so is just practicing to lasthit..
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It's also completely ignoring the hardest part of last hitting under towers: doing so when your creep wave is there too causing damage from both the tower & creeps.
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On March 18 2016 21:53 Kaj wrote:
I dont even understand. why do ppl need to practice last hitting under tower?
The general consensus is that if you deal below 80 dmg without a qb, always hit the creep once and let the towers do the rest of the hitting and you would always get the creep. Works for both ranged and melee.
To last hit the fucking catapult under the tower, you need to hit the catapult the 2 times prior to the last hit.
In general yes, but there's damage variance, so you have to get a feel for the what the hp means and what will require last hitting and what won't. Also, your creep wave will do a little damage, and not in a uniform way (more applicable for offlaners than for safe laners, who will receive undamaged creep waves). It can be very difficult. Otherwise good players would never miss last hits under the tower.
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for melee creeps click them at 350 hp (2 tower hits)
if the last two digits are at ur attack damage hit it once, otherwise wait
so ie u do 60 dmg
creep has 370 => hit twice
creep has 340 => hit once
range creeps hit once if ur under 80 damage
siege creeps hit once if ur under 110 damage, but its pretty random
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SoCal8910 Posts
On March 18 2016 21:53 Kaj wrote:
I dont even understand. why do ppl need to practice last hitting under tower?
The general consensus is that if you deal below 80 dmg without a qb, always hit the creep once and let the towers do the rest of the hitting and you would always get the creep. Works for both ranged and melee.
To last hit the fucking catapult under the tower, you need to hit the catapult the 2 times prior to the last hit.
yeah I gotta agree with everyone else, this is a pretty ignorant view of improving your play. especially if you're learning to play/main a hero, its incredibly important to know how to last hit. personally, as someone that randoms and plays many different heroes even when I pick..one of the biggest things I do for myself when looking back at the match and seeing what I could have done better is not hitting that 60 cs mark by 10 min.
most of the time, the reason I don't get there is bc I have some idiotic support that isn't watching the creep equilibrium or taking the lane matchup into consideration with me. what bad supports do is, pull the wave when you're an antimage vs a strong offlaner or a strong offlane duo when the wave is close to the tower already and last hitting has become difficult already. then, what good offlaners do is, in between tower shots, harass you and attempt to deny creeps while they still have their own creep wave tanking the tower.
if this happens within the first few minutes of the game, your initial farm is going to be extremely poor and your item progression will take a huge hit as well. and if you die? forget about it. you're gonna be in deep trouble. unless you can really turn it around and get some kills with your team, you're gonna be screwed. on the flip side of things, if your team can avoid feeding and you can maybe defend some towers, anti mage can also make a comeback bc once his BF comes online, he's a super farmer and a sick mana void can completely turn a fight around.
btw, side note - this is also exactly why spectre is such a good carry in pubs right now..you can shut her down completely, but she still has a way to get back into the game through her ulti + comeback gold.
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Regarding PMS, I always buy PMS, even if it's not a right-clicker in lane. PMS allows you to tank creeps while you hit the offlaner, and helps you jungle in between waves without losing all your health.
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last hitting under tower on safelane is so different from what it used to be anyway
now the new creep wave gets there fast enough to meet the creeps ure trying to last hit under tower
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i don't know whether you got your answer or not, OP
but just ship more regen, whip out your huge AM laning wang and manabreak harass in a do-able 1v1.
even a darkseer has windows where you can harass and relieve later pressure from yourself.
ping your supports, tell them what to do to help -you-, specifically, to have a better lane if they're there for you.
yeah, you might play it not so great, but as long as you know what you need to do to bring it back on track, just make it happen and ask for the necessary help.
do the standard items with faster treads to get a good feel before you start fancier crap.
make sure your team isn't tping in to chainfeed into losing tower because nobody can be there to actually defend at full strength. their play is as much important as yours when you're doing such a farm-heavy hero.
which sometimes means, let them do somewhat stupid shit, if you know the other team is going to jump on the opportunity and unintentionally free up a lot of time for you.
so basically, u just play hella greedy whenever possible, that's your job.
3mins faster yasha/manta can be 5mins faster abyssal which all help your survivability for tanking ganks in some ways.
it's all cumulative.
other team plays bad, sure, tp manavoid ks, back to jungle, then to lane.
zeus can be an easy lane, just make sure your mechanics and decision making are up to snuff to make it happen.
visualize what can happen in lane if you need to.
practice creep-aggroing off targetting enemy heroes if they're running whacky ranged lanes against you.
you can de-aggro and re-aggro in a chain-like motion to put your creeps in their tower, and theirs closer to yours so there is overall less pressure possible. also in some situations lets you pull hard-camp to your next wave while they're still farming at tower. lots of options depending on the situation.
you are no screwed if you got like 40lh@10 it's fine. just don't die, and talk to your group to make sure they're helping other lanes win.
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EPT
