|
i think people misunderstand what starving an enemy team really means
its not simply denying the enemy team farm; its reducing their farm whilst increasing yours. it is impossible to completely starve a team of farm, which is why map control is important. if you can take the enemy jungle, for every wave they farm you can farm 1 wave + their jungle, or in better cases 1 wave + both jungles.
this is why i would disagree with what yango said. keep all lanes pushed.
in a way he is correct, if you keep empty lanes on your side of the map then the absence of the enemy team's presence in said lane should starve them, whereas if you keep lanes pushed then you give them an opportunity to farm it anyway. however this is all under the assumption that your team is doing jackshit after youve pushed the lanes or the enemy is staying in their base while one of their lanes are pushing.
in high level games, neither scenarios actually play out that way. high level players will use the pushed in lanes to either:
1. create a gold difference by farming more of the map
2. gank one of the three lanes when someone comes to farm a big wave or defend a tower
3. take other objectives (such as rosh, or bait rosh with superior vision of the map)
4. push a lane with up to 2 other lanes pushing simultaneously (the classic slow high ground push), which causes the enemy team to eventually have to have a period of time in which they are defending with 3 or 4 heroes as 1 or 2 branch out to clear a wave of creeps
if you dont push all 3 lanes, then good players will analyse your high ground threat and simply just walk all the way to where their creeps are and start pushing (this is particularly bad against guys like am or furion, who can show up in said lane in no time). your team then belatedly makes the decision to try and force a high ground push or someone comes to defend, both being decisions you do not want to make as you are playing reactionary dota despite your map control.
forcing a high ground push then gives the enemy team an opportunity to trade. otherwise, your team may not have been ready for a fight and you overextend, the enemy tp's back and you lose the fight.
sending someone back to defend means the enemy gets to go do a round of jungles before returning to base to farm the other pushed in lanes because one or more of your team has fallen back and you lose map control dominance (this is all in an even game scenario).
if you dont push all 3 lanes but decide early that you want to threaten high ground, then there is simply no reason for you to have left the remaining lane pushed in, as having it pushed out (number 4) is simply a better case scenario for a team trying to threaten high ground.
tldr; if you push all 3 lanes but you cant seem to force high ground no matter what then you are not efficiently using your map control. the amount of space you get from having 3 lanes pushed in gives you SO many opportunities to make something happen. despite all that, if you cant get yourself ahead then something is wrong with your team's movement, positioning or execution of ganks
|
The reason you want to push in lanes is 95% map control, scouting enemies, forcing enemies to move where you want them to be etc. And its 5% starving.
Yes, you can theorize to the end about starving. Its true that from a starving PoV an empty lane pushing away from their base will lose them more gold. If the lane is empty for 1.5min and you spawned 5x3=15 enemy creeps which died to their enemy creep, they in theory lost 15 creeps worth of money. Meanwhile since their creep were pushing maybe they only lost 8 or 10 creep or whatever. Then you mop up those 5 or 7 extra creep you "gained" as they get further away from their base and their wave gets bigger.
But really, thats not why you push in lanes. You push in lanes because it gives full map vision. It gives you information where they are. If 1 player comes to defend their T3, that means theres at most 4ppl in another location and you can ump them if you want. If they dont come and defend that might be even more valuable information because now you know they're very likely up to something since no one is coming to get the free farm. This is whats gonna give you opportunities to gank. This is whats gonna tell you when they try or dont try to come contest your Rosh. This is whats gonna give away them smoking out of their base. This is what makes you get chip damage done to T3s (which can turn into dead T3s eventually depending on hero lineups) if they dont come and defend. This is what gives you the full map vision because creeps at their T3 likely coupled with some offensive wards should make it very hard for them to move anywhere.
Setting up some advanced starving strategy to gain 250 extra gold lead at 30min into a game isnt how you close out a game. You close out a game by getting Roshan, getting a key pickoff, or countinously outfarm them for 10min while they are sitting in their base. If you start purposedly not pushing in lanes you're soon losing control of their jungle, your wards might get dewarded. The amount of information you lose by suddenly not having full vision outside their base is crucial. Thats worth like a thousand times more than a few creep here and there.
|
Northern Ireland22213 Posts
how do u make something happen if u cant go highground, but all 3 lanes are pushed in so the enemy team never leaves their base to farm??
|
On October 29 2015 00:35 ahswtini wrote:
how do u make something happen if u cant go highground, but all 3 lanes are pushed in so the enemy team never leaves their base to farm??
If you dont have a realiable highground strategy or your draft is not made for that and you are in need of a teamfight or an advantageous position to highground (4v5 3v5), Then you can try.
1-Bait an objective, rosh being the key, you can either get rosh or bait it and teamfight outside their base if your teamcomp is suited for that.
2-Release the pressure on 1-2 lanes, show your heroes on the map but smoke 2 and try to gank the one that leaves the base to farm, that happens better at the sidelanes.
3-Fake a retreat. Show mid, push highground but dont commit, get cheap damage, when it seems you cant breach retreat to the radiant ancients (if dire) smoke and wait in highground for someone to leave just a little of their base and bam, kill him (they will probably move from mid because other lanes are also pushed)
4-Use the map control advantage to get a sufficient advantage that breaching high ground is possible (usually before it was something between 15-20k net worth lead)
5-Bkbs-Pipe-Mek and brute force if you can do it with an item advantage.
I mean generally there are no guidelines, and if even with a significant advantage you cant breach it, it means your draft failed to be consistent enough to win the game, and probably will have to wait for a mistake on their side or the 1-2-3 stragegies listed.
Also I think you can Just rely on buybacks if you're outfarming them and you are sure of it. 6 lives (5+rosh) and 3-4 buybacks should mean raxes in most cases, but as always everything is situational because thats the beauty of DotA, everygame is different.
|
Let's say I'm Legion commander, and I have Silver Edge and Armlet. I activate Silver Edge, run up to someone, and I want to duel and kill them. I want to Press the Attack, activate Armlet, and duel this guy to kill him.
1) What of my abilities will break the invisibility? I was playing and I thought I saw that activating armlet broke my invis. So will Press the Attack I assume. Is it simply a rule that 'any ability or item breaks invis'? I know I've seen people place wards while smoked
2) Will the debuff from Silver edge be placed on the target if I activate anything before attacking?
It seems like in order to duel with everything active, I'd need to break the invis by attacking, activate armlet, press the attack, and then duel. Through all this, they have a good chance to disable me or escape, so it seems very dangerous to do anything other than duel right away.
|
Wind Walk based invisibilities (most active ones like shadowblade, bounty invis, etc) break on any item or ability use
Smoke is completely different and only breaks on expiry or when you come within break radius of a different hero (or attack somethign).
Obviously you don't get silver edge debuff if you break invis before hitting him (this includes casting duel out of invis). This is why you buy blink not shadowblade (activate armlet, cast PTA, blink on enemy). Otherwise you have to judge how capable the enemy is of escaping (can you afford to hit them and cast spells or do you have to just duel) and how badly you need damage from PTA to get the kill
Note that armlet activation is instant so assuming your fingers are decently fast it's not an issue at all in this discussion (beyond breaking ur invis so you do have to hit first if u want the extra dmg).
|
Northern Ireland22213 Posts
i like blink and silveredge on legion at times, the two do different things. while u lose the PTA with sedge, u can still easily blademail before duelling
|
SoCal8933 Posts
On October 29 2015 01:44 ahswtini wrote:
i like blink and silveredge on legion at times, the two do different things. while u lose the PTA with sedge, u can still easily blademail before duelling
if you right click out of silver edge to disable blinks, then use PTA, can you still get off a duel on most targets before they can react? did the change make it more viable or is it still not something you'd want to risk and instead play it safe?
|
The issue is if they have a disable/escape right
but yes it definitely does work if you are fast and cancel PTA backswing and aren't like already behind them as they are moving
|
On October 30 2015 02:48 BluemoonSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2015 01:44 ahswtini wrote:
i like blink and silveredge on legion at times, the two do different things. while u lose the PTA with sedge, u can still easily blademail before duelling if you right click out of silver edge to disable blinks, then use PTA, can you still get off a duel on most targets before they can react? did the change make it more viable or is it still not something you'd want to risk and instead play it safe?
autoattack from invis+press the attack gives at least 0.6 secs to react i think
|
wiki says pta has 0.2 cast time (plus HUGE 0.93 backswing wtf) so they have .5s (duel is .3) but as long as you START casting duel when they are within 150 range it will complete the cast barring like forcestaff I think so ur pretty safe in that sense.
but if they have stun/euls/real blink/etc it can be hard
|
Northern Ireland22213 Posts
duel has a pretty long cast range so yeah, its all about judging wat u can get away with
|
On October 28 2015 02:34 Buckyman wrote:
If I'm being zoned away from the side shop due to lack of a critical survival item (say, brown boots vs. a razor dual lane) is it better to use the courier for items available at the side shop, or not contest last hits at all, or push the lane past the side shop and risk getting forced out of XP range entirely?
Repeating this question because I'm losing lanes to it. How should I deal with being zoned away from the side shop?
|
Northern Ireland22213 Posts
On October 30 2015 03:04 Buckyman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2015 02:34 Buckyman wrote:
If I'm being zoned away from the side shop due to lack of a critical survival item (say, brown boots vs. a razor dual lane) is it better to use the courier for items available at the side shop, or not contest last hits at all, or push the lane past the side shop and risk getting forced out of XP range entirely? Repeating this question because I'm losing lanes to it. How should I deal with being zoned away from the side shop?
just use the courier lol, if the creeps are at ur tower then thats good
|
I mean, ideally you force them out of lane briefly without necessarily fucking ur equilibrium which gets u access and xp but obviously that isn't always feasible.
Then it depends on like ur mids status (does he already have bottle? does he need to crow (assuming he's good enough to), etc. You can ask a support to secure ur mid a rune which then frees up the courier from bottle crowing, or u can discuss with mid and bring out ur items next time he crows, or w/e. If u can get xp where u are and can't get xp when u push the lane to get to the shop then the item definitely isn't worth it right. then again u can push for ur item then pull creeps for equilibrium it really depends on what you can pull off. There isn't a single right answer here.
E: PS if ur a real ninja u have a qb and go deforesting on ur way to the side shop. At least bot lane u don't need many trees cut down to get to the shop from a long-ass way away (tangoes are viable too)
|
SoCal8933 Posts
On October 30 2015 03:08 Sn0_Man wrote:
E: PS if ur a real ninja u have a qb and go deforesting on ur way to the side shop. At least bot lane u don't need many trees cut down to get to the shop from a long-ass way away (tangoes are viable too)
was gonna say this. top safe lane you don't need to eat too many trees too if you eat the right ones. if you're the offlaner, the other team is probably pulling so you shouldn't have too much trouble. but side shop access is definitely slightly easier for the dire because they have alternate access.
minimize your need to use the courier if possible tho, don't screw your mid over.
|
"the other team is probably pulling" - Nope, in my bracket it's more popular to keep the enemy lane on their starting items as long as possible, even at the expense of feeding them XP and not pulling.
|
i mean if ur offlane and u have the wave at ur tower ur winning the lane handily so it doesn't matter
|
SoCal8933 Posts
yeah if that's what's happening, you're probably not in danger so you won't need anything immediately. keep your stuff on quickbuy (just in case) and wait until the courier isn't being used by your mid or safe laner.
|
On October 30 2015 05:13 Sn0_Man wrote:
i mean if ur offlane and u have the wave at ur tower ur winning the lane handily so it doesn't matter
That's fine if I'm in the lane solo; not so much if I'm the nominal farmer in a dual lane and fall behind on damage due to lack of items.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
