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Night Stalker
Of the Night Stalker, there is no history-only stories. There are ancient tales woven into the lore of every race and every culture, of an impossible time before sunlight and daytime, when night reigned alone and the world was covered with the creatures of darkness-creatures like Balanar the Night Stalker.
It is said that on the dawn of the First Day, all the night creatures perished. All, that is, save one. Evil's embodiment, Night Stalker delights in his malevolence. He created the primal role of the Night Terror, the Boogeyman, and as long as there have been younglings, his is the specter summoned to terrify them. This is a role he relishes-nor are these empty theatrics. He does indeed stalk the unwary, the defenseless, those who have strayed beyond the lighted paths or denied the warnings of their communities. Night Stalker serves as living proof that every child's worst nightmare... is true.
For abilities, stats, and other information, visit this hero's Liquipedia page here: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/Night_Stalker
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Alright so I wanted to start this topic to ask about this hero. Right now I'm having issues on deciding what is a good first item for him. Armlet I don't like because he doesn't regen well enough for the HP degen to offset, and bkb first seems pretty bad as well since he needs to do some damage early on.
I was considering Sange first and the more I think about it, the better it seems. Obviously it is still a bit situational, but I love Halberd right now and I think NS with a late game halberd is pretty good as during that time he starts to fall off a bit.
Am I crazy, or is it not a bad choice?
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I also dislike armlet, maybe I'm just bad at toggling. Two other items to maybe consider, basher and vanguard (I normally like basher -> AC/BKB).
Also, I think Eul's is not bad on NS, but I haven't had the balls to try it.
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How do you actually use Eul... you fly one then kill one?
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Armlet is good because gives a tremendous boost on early stages of the game. which is when NS is strongest as a ganker. I usually go urn->Armlet, as the first give some mana regen plus the active heal, which offsets the armlet losses.
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boots bracer bkb basher
bkb first is pretty good because you don't need an item to deal damage during the night
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Lol, I remember when I first posted here to look for help when my NS performance was getting poor...
On April 17 2014 17:09 ishida66 wrote:
Armlet is good because gives a tremendous boost on early stages of the game. which is when NS is strongest as a ganker. I usually go urn->Armlet, as the first give some mana regen plus the active heal, which offsets the armlet losses.
Same goes for me, in fact even as a mid I skip bottle and just go for fast urn, then go urn>phase>armlet/bkb depending on the number of disables. If the game goes longer than 30 mins that usually means a halberd for me, followed by Heart/AC depending on the heroes I'm facing.
Well that's my cookie cutter build, but I don't know if anyone should follow this; I'm still a noob and it's just the way I build up NS...
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On April 17 2014 15:43 haduken wrote:
How do you actually use Eul... you fly one then kill one?
If you void first hero, usually people will TP back against NS.
With eul? No, can do sir. Or you can use it during teamfight to disable 1 initiator or supporter or even carries.
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Okay so this guy has fallen off really hard since the day night changes. A bit sad to be honest as this type of game really suits the hero. I think a buff may be in order to give him the boost he needs to see competitive play again.
I think overall his numbers are fine, the issue IMO is that the 2 less minutes to first night make his ganking nearly impossible. If you get 1 gank you're already doing better than expected.
I think a buff to Darkness level 1 is in order. 20 seconds for a 180 cool down just makes it impractical to use early, and that is when he needs it most. At the very least a duration buff is needed if not a cooldown reduction. I don't think he'd become dominant, but at least pickable would be nice.
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Eul was a synderen build. I personally don't agree with it, although I can see where he is coming from. I think that you should be ganking with allies, so you don't exactly need the extra disable.
Yea the day night changes screwed him up. The first night comes way too early before he got his levels to gank. The night also last too short. Essentially his window of destruction got pushed from min 6-12 to min 6-8. Arguably his impact from min 12-16 is much weaker because he cannot wreck sidelane heroes anymore.
I think armlet is the best first item to go for NS now. Makes you so tanky early on, and that makes you scary because its hard to chase you away.
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United States47024 Posts
What your first item is depends on your early development. You can't really use the first night that well, so you pretty much have to aim your item development for how you expect the 2nd and 3rd nights to play out. Minutes 0-12 unfortunately have to be farm-time, and the first night essentially acts as a breather where your laning strength is boosted and your farming speed rises.
One of the important things to recognize is that how this hero plays out also has a lot to do with how you manage the daytime. The daytime is your farm time. You need to maximize your farming efficiency during the day through every means possible--if a lane is difficult to farm, then you may need to Treads Swap+Bottle Crow+Void spam to farm jungle. You NEED to maximize your daytime farming speed through whatever means possible.
This is actually where the draw of Armlet comes in--it's not just an item that gives you tankiness and damage at night. Very critically, it gives you a huge, cost-efficient boost to daytime farming speed from the DPS stats. Your ideal tempo with Armlet is getting it for the 2nd night, using it during the 2nd night, then using it to farm your 2nd major item for the 3rd night.
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On August 18 2014 13:44 DucK- wrote:
Eul was a synderen build. I personally don't agree with it, although I can see where he is coming from. I think that you should be ganking with allies, so you don't exactly need the extra disable.
I rarely built Eul's, but ever since 6.81 it earned a little more utility as a way to start off a gank against a hero with Blink Dagger (700 cast range versus Void's 525). So there's that.
Both the day/night change as well as the pub metagame shift of "lane to 6 and deathball to victory" messed with this guy hard. I think he does okay in/against certain lineups as a safelane "carry," rushing armlet/BKB and basically running into the position you would have taken in the late-mid game in the old days in the early-mid game instead.
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Hero is in a really awkward state right now, since first night comes at a time where you don't really have enough of a level advantage to go around yolo killing people, and if you leave it till the second night it kind of feels a bit late. Doesn't help that level 1 darkness is probably the worst ult in the game, I never skill it till 10 and generally then just wait till 11 to use it.
That said hero is super fun and you can still snowball if you have a team to back you up for those first night kills.
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The hero is definitely super cool. I'd love to see buffs/changes to make him more powerful in the first night, maybe he'll be a competitive pick again.
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I still think he can wreck the sidelanes by the first night. Lvl 5 and urn/bottle plus brown boots or simply brown boots 4 mins in mid is not too far-fetched, even with a difficult lane. Snowball and/or create space for the carry. And the nice thing about it is that if you don't get much from the first night, the second night comes really early.
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On August 23 2014 16:31 xAdra wrote:
The hero is definitely super cool. I'd love to see buffs/changes to make him more powerful in the first night, maybe he'll be a competitive pick again.
Honestly all i think he really needs is a buff to level 1 Darkness. Give people a reason to get it. Now granted you can't make it too strong or else he'll be broken, but still I think at least a bit more duration wouldn't be bad.
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On August 23 2014 23:01 Checkm8 wrote:
I still think he can wreck the sidelanes by the first night. Lvl 5 and urn/bottle plus brown boots or simply brown boots 4 mins in mid is not too far-fetched, even with a difficult lane. Snowball and/or create space for the carry. And the nice thing about it is that if you don't get much from the first night, the second night comes really early.
First night if NS is missing mid, sidelanes should play safe. You still cannot dive tower to get kills yet, and all roaming so early does is you being level 5 while the mid is like 7 with more farm.
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On August 24 2014 10:30 DucK- wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2014 23:01 Checkm8 wrote:
I still think he can wreck the sidelanes by the first night. Lvl 5 and urn/bottle plus brown boots or simply brown boots 4 mins in mid is not too far-fetched, even with a difficult lane. Snowball and/or create space for the carry. And the nice thing about it is that if you don't get much from the first night, the second night comes really early. First night if NS is missing mid, sidelanes should play safe. You still cannot dive tower to get kills yet, and all roaming so early does is you being level 5 while the mid is like 7 with more farm.
An ally that needs farm can rotate mid to offset your lack of levels. And I think you're really underestimating his diving power at 5. NS with 2 gaunts at 5 has around 1000 hp (exactly 1005 if you follow the default recommended build). Surely you can kill squishier heroes even under their towers. And it's not like you don't have allies to assist you.
Edit: Anyways, I'm currently experimenting with helm of the dominator. Taking a creep in the jungle with you to help with ganking is quite nice. With it your ganking is still good even at daytime. With good ganks you can get it around the time the second morning begins, with a really unsuccessful first night you can get it around the beginning or midway the second night if you skip phase. The armor and lifesteal seems good too...
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On August 24 2014 10:30 DucK- wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2014 23:01 Checkm8 wrote:
I still think he can wreck the sidelanes by the first night. Lvl 5 and urn/bottle plus brown boots or simply brown boots 4 mins in mid is not too far-fetched, even with a difficult lane. Snowball and/or create space for the carry. And the nice thing about it is that if you don't get much from the first night, the second night comes really early. First night if NS is missing mid, sidelanes should play safe. You still cannot dive tower to get kills yet, and all roaming so early does is you being level 5 while the mid is like 7 with more farm.
This is why ns is worst hero in th game imo. Night starts and ends too early currently.
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United States47024 Posts
There's like zero reason to start 2x Gauntlet. You're going to start Stout or bottle rush most of the time, and most conceivable advantages of a double gauntlet start are outdone by one of those two.
HoD sucks on NS. The creep can't keep up with your nighttime MS, so even if you got it early enough, it would only slow your ganks down. You don't farm stacks well, so it's farming function doesn't help you, and Vladimir is overall better for you because Satanic isn't a high priority.
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On August 24 2014 11:51 TheYango wrote:
There's like zero reason to start 2x Gauntlet. You're going to start Stout or bottle rush most of the time, and most conceivable advantages of a double gauntlet start are outdone by one of those two.
HoD sucks on NS. The creep can't keep up with your nighttime MS, so even if you got it early enough, it would only slow your ganks down. You don't farm stacks well, so it's farming function doesn't help you, and Vladimir is overall better for you because Satanic isn't a high priority.
Alright, so provided you go with either stout or bottle, you have around 120 less hp, so 885 which is still quite high 4 mins in. I still think NS is not that terrible of a hero under the right circumstances.
Point taken about the HoD, but I think I'll still play around it more to provide better feedback.
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i think NS would be great in the right setup. for example if you run an aggro trilane vs def trilane ns would be great to cleanup and 4man the tower at the first night. the good think about ns ganks is that they are super reliable even if the lane doesnt initiate. alot of other good gankers rely heavily on skillshots or dagger except maybe zeus and a couple other nukers. with ns you get a beefier frontline.
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On September 12 2014 08:30 clickrush wrote:
i think NS would be great in the right setup. for example if you run an aggro trilane vs def trilane ns would be great to cleanup and 4man the tower at the first night. the good think about ns ganks is that they are super reliable even if the lane doesnt initiate. alot of other good gankers rely heavily on skillshots or dagger except maybe zeus and a couple other nukers. with ns you get a beefier frontline.
I never liked trilane NS because of how it affects his exp.
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He was referring mid NS ganking the tri vs tri i think 
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On September 12 2014 14:38 icystorage wrote:He was referring mid NS ganking the tri vs tri i think
Ahhh :D
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On September 12 2014 08:30 clickrush wrote:
i think NS would be great in the right setup. for example if you run an aggro trilane vs def trilane ns would be great to cleanup and 4man the tower at the first night. the good think about ns ganks is that they are super reliable even if the lane doesnt initiate. alot of other good gankers rely heavily on skillshots or dagger except maybe zeus and a couple other nukers. with ns you get a beefier frontline.
He can get a few kills and a tower but then what? Hes gonna leave mid and his tower is going to take heavy damage. If hes against krob its gonna die. Then daytime comes around and you're basically playing 4v5 because half of your skills dont work.
I just finished NS for the every hero challenge. I got 3-4 kills every first night doing exactly what you suggest (dual lanes, not an aggro tri though). Usually took the tower too. Then we got over run because NS doesnt do very well against the krob skywrath doom void razor team I always find myself up against.
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ns is decent against splitpushers and very good against gankers
so pretty bad right now
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he actually rapes tinker if caught pushing a lane
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On September 12 2014 19:41 icystorage wrote:
he actually rapes tinker if caught pushing a lane
TBH, its not that good until he gets an aghs.
And even then...unless tinker was super shut down (how?) ....he can't really kill tinker without a lot of help due to shift queue blink.
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the window is when he has bots no blink though after that then idk
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United States47024 Posts
On September 12 2014 14:38 icystorage wrote:He was referring mid NS ganking the tri vs tri i think
He's not a bad aggressive trilane hero either, but it works only really because if you win an aggressive trilane, you're just pretty much always way ahead. It's basically just high base stats + strong low-level nuke that make him work--not really anything special.
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If dual lanes came back he could be good in aggro dual lanes as well. A Night Stalker that is ahead in a 2v2 is still a scary Night Stalker. Also good about him is that there are a lot of heroes you can pair with him to give you some really scary lanes.
Funny enough (at 3.5k MMR) I had Bane/Night Stalker lane and completely crushed a Lich/VS/Spectre trilane. This is pretty low level though so take it with a grain of salt.
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I really wish that the next patch gives him a buff, I miss so much seeing him.
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Well, the patch did buff him. Anyone had a chance to play him yet? The increased HitN and super buffed Darkness duration means he should be an absolute terror for a longer time early game. Probably ridiculously hard for enemy supports to contest runes at night since it results in a free kill for him. Basically looks like he should be mid at all costs with the addition of a bounty rune to help experience gaps.
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United States15275 Posts
While he did receive buffs, I would say he was nerfed by the patch overall. Most of the design changes work against his primary purpose and the gold/XP changes make it even harder to thread the needle between intelligent ganking and overextension.
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Okay, I was theorycrafting a bit last night and decided to take another look at Refresher Orb on Night Stalker. In theory the item seems to be one of the better items that he can get after his core, but I wanted to test the numbers before doing anything conclusive. Arguably, now with the buff to Hunter in the Night NS is even more reliant on night time to fight in the late game as he loses 90 attack speed now if he fights in daylight.
For the test I took a level 16 Night Stalker and gave him a Refresher Orb. I would use Darkness/RFO every time they came off cooldown starting right at the 4 minute mark in the game. I believe taht this is the best way to get maximum darkness time, but if I am incorrect please feel free to correct me.
Doing the test this way you can extend the night from 4 minutes long (starting at 4:00) to 18 and a half minutes (ending at around 22:30) with Darkness coming off cooldown just around the time day breaks again (and refresher shorty after that). I feel like the second part has to be mentioned because if you end up with no Darkness during daylight you are giving the enemy team a large window of opportunity where your hero is considerably weak.
I want to try it in a match, but as of right now I think that RFO is probably the best third item that a NS can get. I don't believe that any other item will give him as much as RFO.
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United States47024 Posts
You actually could get a lot longer of a continuous night before the night timing change.
The thing is that Night Stalker simply doesn't need that long of a night. 40s downtime on rank 3 Darkness is simply good enough. It's shorter than BKB CD, and it's shorter than most other medium-long CD ults, so from a practical standpoint, you can't use more Darkness uptime more effectively than that.
RFO adds virtually nothing to your combat power. It only extends the length of your combat strength advantage of night time. However, this is essentially based on the premise that buying 5k worth of items that actually directly benefit your combat strength would not impact fight outcomes--and that it would simply be better to add to the duration. In close games, this is rarely the case--you want to make yourself stronger during your strong timings, rather than sacrificing 5k worth of items that directly benefit your combat ability to make that temporal period of strength last longer.
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Yeah thats what I found even playing around with it in a bot match. that gold sink really made him hit like cotton candy after I got it. I'm sure there is some build/team that could use it (even just for vision difference) but as a normal build I found it a bit lacking.
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What do you consider core for him? Armlet and Basher?
If I'm not farming well I actually consider getting SnY to a good idea and not be useless during the day.
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United States47024 Posts
BKB is the only major item I'd really consider core, and even then, WHEN you get it varies a ton from game to game.
Everything else is situational.
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I've always found armlet to be really underwhelming on him. I really like crimson guard on him as it allows for tower dives like crazy.
SnY isn't bad. Good if you need a fighting item that moment IMO.
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How do you call armlet underwhelming, and then proceed to call sny a fighting item lol?
regardless, night stalker is still bad, he hasnt recovered from the night time nerf yet
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Actually due to changes in HitN, he's a more effective ganker, with 3 points in void, 1 in fear and 1 in HitN at level 5 and you can start ganking, pretty much like a skywrath mage without the burst ult. Best place for him is still mid I think.
Best midgame fighting item for him is Armlet for non-disable reliant lineups and BKB for those with heavy disables, but I think no one is up to contest that...
SnY is the item that I like least on NS...I mean he doesn't need extra movespeed now at night when he's pretty much +90% movespeed, and if you really want survivability just invest the 2k from yasha to 1.8k on talisman of evasion to make a Halberd...it goes way longer and is just hands up one of the best items on NS...
Anyone else but me messing around with Dagon? I think it can be a good pickup as a ganker...pretty much phase>urn>dagon or phase>bottle>dagon for maximum ganking potential...
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So what's the optimal way to use darkness since the patch where it pauses the day/night cycle?
I don't feel like I'm using it very effectively now. I'm just dropping it on CD at night and saving it for fights during the day. Is that all you can do?
That change seemed like a massive nerf to me...
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On January 11 2015 08:40 Belisarius wrote:
So what's the optimal way to use darkness since the patch where it pauses the day/night cycle?
I don't feel like I'm using it very effectively now. I'm just dropping it on CD at night and saving it for fights during the day. Is that all you can do?
That change seemed like a massive nerf to me...
Felt the same to me. He needed buffs as it was. Love this hero but he seems so out of place...
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Hey guys, I'm interested in playing support NS since watching newbee playing it. The hero is really cool to play and can have a lot of impact and exert pressure during night. And his silence against that wave of mid qop is good.
So, how do you build him in terms of item?
I've been theorycrafting it a bit and played a small bot game to see.
Boots first is amazing for all roamers, and NS isn't an exception.
Bottle is required to sustain your mana.
Urn is always core.
Treads are the best boots as support.
Aghs first is CORE AS FUCK
And I max Q > E > W
I start with Q, then I take a point of silence and I try to get level 3 before 4 minutes.
your thoughts?
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Bottle is necessary, but leave urn for your supports. Yes it's good on him, but no, he doesn't no-shit need it.
Treads are for sure the best boots on him-- tread swapping helps his mana go a long way, and without the IAS boost during the day hitting things is extremely painful.
Your starting items are dependent on whatever is going to help you maximize your effectiveness during the first night, and by extension the early laning phase prior to the first night. Since he's such a shitty laner, even if you're going mid (I think he's a better offlaner if their offlane isn't too terrifying), that usually amounts to rushing your bottle and mostly last-hitting with just your nuke when you can't aggro-control an easy last-hit towards yourself. I just go naked bottle, and then boots into treads. A stout shield might be necessary in offlane, but shouldn't be obligatory in mid if you control creep aggro well. Any other extra regen or stats items don't really give you much-- you want to have treads up before the first night is over.
I really like blink after treads on him. It lets you maximize your damage during the Void slow, instead of having to catch up to them after you slow them. It lets you get out of sticky situations letting you gank with greater impunity. Lastly, being able to blink slow or blink silence gives you a way to be useful during the day.
Drum isn't terrible, but isn't fantastic either. I'm not sure if I recommend it at all or not-- maybe it's a substitute for blink in games where you're sucking early.
Don't build Aghs, it's a giant waste of gold.
If you're trying to be a consistent damage source over the course of the game (2nd farm priority and secondary damage source) maelstrom can be decent, basher is alright, and deso isn't bad. Often you have to grab BKB as your first major item though to continue to be a threat as the enemy catch up on levels.
AC, Halberd, Silver Edge, and to a lesser degree S/Y are all solid late-midgame/early-lategame pickups for a secondary damage dealer. Honestly you could probably get away with skipping the Blink to rush out Silver Edge in games you're doing well early.
For a more utility focused NS (3rd farm priority, or your team already has 2 other good damage sources) pipe, vlads, solar crest, AC again, Shiva, Halberd again, maybe Lotus?, maybe Atos, and maybe Necrobook are all good options, which you choose and in which order is entirely situational on the game.
I could see a NS going something like S/Y or Halberd, maybe Solar Crest, and then Skadi being a pretty decent anti-carry build if you already have 2 good damage sources and your 4 position support is getting some of the utility items mentioned above (as opposed to shit like force/blink/aghs), or if the enemy only has one good lategame damage source and they're not illusion based (e.g. a Sven, Lifestealer, or Alchemist in particular, but even the ranged agility carries as well).
As for skill build I definitely prefer favouring and maxing E first. Q first for csing, then two levels in your passive, and then I usually grab a second level in your first skill. Unless your supports are fighting someone fragile with a free escape spell and your 3-55 s silence could in conjunction with their nukes and disables make the difference between getting a kill and not (e.g. QoP, AM, Weaver, BH, etc), I wouldn't bother leveling it yet.
Your primary goal is maximizing your damage in the first night-- your damage comes from your IAS buff from passive on targets slowed by your nuke. The nuke scales poorly from the first to second rank, and especially if you get zoned so hard such that you're only level 3 at 4 minutes you're going to get more dps out of hitting them with an additional 15 IAS.
Not to mention that because his mana pool is so poor, even with consistent bottle use you're liable to running out of mana, so finding yourself with a slightly cheaper if weaker nuke isn't the end of the world. If you run out of mana before the first night is over your priority is still to remain a presence on the map, so you want to minimize wasting time healing and restoring mana beyond what is absolutely necessary. Therefore maximizing your MS and IAS takes priority to further leveling your nuke.
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Aghs is waste?
Man if you got aghs with a ns your opponent will never get out of their base at night time. They cannot contest your night time roshes, they cannot go smoke ganks, they cannot ward. Aghs on a support ns (even a core ns) is a must. You really underestimate the power of night vision. And thanks to Darkness ability your team will have psuedo smoke efect every gank attempt.
Also you should never max E. Your first 2 nights is extremely important and having a strong Q nuke (335 damage and 4 sec slow is not a joke) will make a huge difference.
When i play offlane or support NS i go for 3-1-1 at level 5 and 4-4-1-1 at level 10. Itemization on the other hand extremely game depended. Bottle, PT, Aghs is core.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
i disagree strongly with maxing his silence over hunter, in fact there are many situations where i would prefer 4-0-4. the +ms and +as is not insignificant, even for a "support" balanar
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I like the value point in silence at level 2 to improve your ganks. It's required vs qop/ds/weaver/escape heroes
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On July 29 2015 13:30 Nightmarjoo wrote:
Bottle is necessary, but leave urn for your supports. Yes it's good on him, but no, he doesn't no-shit need it.
Treads are for sure the best boots on him-- tread swapping helps his mana go a long way, and without the IAS boost during the day hitting things is extremely painful.
Your starting items are dependent on whatever is going to help you maximize your effectiveness during the first night, and by extension the early laning phasùe prior to the first night. Since he's such a shitty laner, even if you're going mid (I think he's a better offlaner if their offlane isn't too terrifying), that usually amounts to rushing your bottle and mostly last-hitting with just your nuke when you can't aggro-control an easy last-hit towards yourself. I just go naked bottle, and then boots into treads. A stout shield might be necessary in offlane, but shouldn't be obligatory in mid if you control creep aggro well. Any other extra regen or stats items don't really give you much-- you want to have treads up before the first night is over.
I really like blink after treads on him. It lets you maximize your damage during the Void slow, instead of having to catch up to them after you slow them. It lets you get out of sticky situations letting you gank with greater impunity. Lastly, being able to blink slow or blink silence gives you a way to be useful during the day.
Drum isn't terrible, but isn't fantastic either. I'm not sure if I recommend it at all or not-- maybe it's a substitute for blink in games where you're sucking early.
Don't build Aghs, it's a giant waste of gold.
If you're trying to be a consistent damage source over the course of the game (2nd farm priority and secondary damage source) maelstrom can be decent, basher is alright, and deso isn't bad. Often you have to grab BKB as your first major item though to continue to be a threat as the enemy catch up on levels.
AC, Halberd, Silver Edge, and to a lesser degree S/Y are all solid late-midgame/early-lategame pickups for a secondary damage dealer. Honestly you could probably get away with skipping the Blink to rush out Silver Edge in games you're doing well early.
For a more utility focused NS (3rd farm priority, or your team already has 2 other good damage sources) pipe, vlads, solar crest, AC again, Shiva, Halberd again, maybe Lotus?, maybe Atos, and maybe Necrobook are all good options, which you choose and in which order is entirely situational on the game.
I could see a NS going something like S/Y or Halberd, maybe Solar Crest, and then Skadi being a pretty decent anti-carry build if you already have 2 good damage sources and your 4 position support is getting some of the utility items mentioned above (as opposed to shit like force/blink/aghs), or if the enemy only has one good lategame damage source and they're not illusion based (e.g. a Sven, Lifestealer, or Alchemist in particular, but even the ranged agility carries as well).
As for skill build I definitely prefer favouring and maxing E first. Q first for csing, then two levels in your passive, and then I usually grab a second level in your first skill. Unless your supports are fighting someone fragile with a free escape spell and your 3-55 s silence could in conjunction with their nukes and disables make the difference between getting a kill and not (e.g. QoP, AM, Weaver, BH, etc), I wouldn't bother leveling it yet.
Your primary goal is maximizing your damage in the first night-- your damage comes from your IAS buff from passive on targets slowed by your nuke. The nuke scales poorly from the first to second rank, and especially if you get zoned so hard such that you're only level 3 at 4 minutes you're going to get more dps out of hitting them with an additional 15 IAS.
Not to mention that because his mana pool is so poor, even with consistent bottle use you're liable to running out of mana, so finding yourself with a slightly cheaper if weaker nuke isn't the end of the world. If you run out of mana before the first night is over your priority is still to remain a presence on the map, so you want to minimize wasting time healing and restoring mana beyond what is absolutely necessary. Therefore maximizing your MS and IAS takes priority to further leveling your nuke.
Asks for support advice which is position 4/5 and then you talk about position 1-3 Nightstalker.
Silence is picked up if it is needed for the gank in first night, so usually as a support you pick up 1 point in the other 2 skills and then hold the lvl 3 skill point if there is a hero you might need the silence for.
Aghs is good on support to provide vision if your team has heroes to take advantage of it ie clock for hooks, blink initiation heroes and so on.
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On July 29 2015 19:23 Habitus wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2015 13:30 Nightmarjoo wrote:
Bottle is necessary, but leave urn for your supports. Yes it's good on him, but no, he doesn't no-shit need it.
Treads are for sure the best boots on him-- tread swapping helps his mana go a long way, and without the IAS boost during the day hitting things is extremely painful.
Your starting items are dependent on whatever is going to help you maximize your effectiveness during the first night, and by extension the early laning phasùe prior to the first night. Since he's such a shitty laner, even if you're going mid (I think he's a better offlaner if their offlane isn't too terrifying), that usually amounts to rushing your bottle and mostly last-hitting with just your nuke when you can't aggro-control an easy last-hit towards yourself. I just go naked bottle, and then boots into treads. A stout shield might be necessary in offlane, but shouldn't be obligatory in mid if you control creep aggro well. Any other extra regen or stats items don't really give you much-- you want to have treads up before the first night is over.
I really like blink after treads on him. It lets you maximize your damage during the Void slow, instead of having to catch up to them after you slow them. It lets you get out of sticky situations letting you gank with greater impunity. Lastly, being able to blink slow or blink silence gives you a way to be useful during the day.
Drum isn't terrible, but isn't fantastic either. I'm not sure if I recommend it at all or not-- maybe it's a substitute for blink in games where you're sucking early.
Don't build Aghs, it's a giant waste of gold.
If you're trying to be a consistent damage source over the course of the game (2nd farm priority and secondary damage source) maelstrom can be decent, basher is alright, and deso isn't bad. Often you have to grab BKB as your first major item though to continue to be a threat as the enemy catch up on levels.
AC, Halberd, Silver Edge, and to a lesser degree S/Y are all solid late-midgame/early-lategame pickups for a secondary damage dealer. Honestly you could probably get away with skipping the Blink to rush out Silver Edge in games you're doing well early.
For a more utility focused NS (3rd farm priority, or your team already has 2 other good damage sources) pipe, vlads, solar crest, AC again, Shiva, Halberd again, maybe Lotus?, maybe Atos, and maybe Necrobook are all good options, which you choose and in which order is entirely situational on the game.
I could see a NS going something like S/Y or Halberd, maybe Solar Crest, and then Skadi being a pretty decent anti-carry build if you already have 2 good damage sources and your 4 position support is getting some of the utility items mentioned above (as opposed to shit like force/blink/aghs), or if the enemy only has one good lategame damage source and they're not illusion based (e.g. a Sven, Lifestealer, or Alchemist in particular, but even the ranged agility carries as well).
As for skill build I definitely prefer favouring and maxing E first. Q first for csing, then two levels in your passive, and then I usually grab a second level in your first skill. Unless your supports are fighting someone fragile with a free escape spell and your 3-55 s silence could in conjunction with their nukes and disables make the difference between getting a kill and not (e.g. QoP, AM, Weaver, BH, etc), I wouldn't bother leveling it yet.
Your primary goal is maximizing your damage in the first night-- your damage comes from your IAS buff from passive on targets slowed by your nuke. The nuke scales poorly from the first to second rank, and especially if you get zoned so hard such that you're only level 3 at 4 minutes you're going to get more dps out of hitting them with an additional 15 IAS.
Not to mention that because his mana pool is so poor, even with consistent bottle use you're liable to running out of mana, so finding yourself with a slightly cheaper if weaker nuke isn't the end of the world. If you run out of mana before the first night is over your priority is still to remain a presence on the map, so you want to minimize wasting time healing and restoring mana beyond what is absolutely necessary. Therefore maximizing your MS and IAS takes priority to further leveling your nuke. Asks for support advice which is position 4/5 and then you talk about position 1-3 Nightstalker. Silence is picked up if it is needed for the gank in first night, so usually as a support you pick up 1 point in the other 2 skills and then hold the lvl 3 skill point if there is a hero you might need the silence for. Aghs is good on support to provide vision if your team has heroes to take advantage of it ie clock for hooks, blink initiation heroes and so on.
I find aghs really amazing on this hero, it's just insane in any situations.
I never really tested offlane nightstalker, but it probably works the same way: an utility ns with urn treads and farming an aghs.
I think pos 1/2 night stalker is a thing of the past, he gets kited way too easily and cannot do anything against gyro, qop, lesh, etc
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United States47024 Posts
Hunter's arguably even more important on support stalker because it's a huge tool for finding farm on downtime.
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Wisp Nightstalker underrated combo for the same reasons Bristleback and Wisp is good. NSer is one tanky fuck and the attack speed is amazing.
Support NS on the other hand seemed like a legit pick versus some QoP and Storm picks last month. 5s silence and his early game damage ain't no joke.
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On July 29 2015 19:35 HammerKick wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2015 19:23 Habitus wrote:On July 29 2015 13:30 Nightmarjoo wrote:
Bottle is necessary, but leave urn for your supports. Yes it's good on him, but no, he doesn't no-shit need it.
Treads are for sure the best boots on him-- tread swapping helps his mana go a long way, and without the IAS boost during the day hitting things is extremely painful.
Your starting items are dependent on whatever is going to help you maximize your effectiveness during the first night, and by extension the early laning phasùe prior to the first night. Since he's such a shitty laner, even if you're going mid (I think he's a better offlaner if their offlane isn't too terrifying), that usually amounts to rushing your bottle and mostly last-hitting with just your nuke when you can't aggro-control an easy last-hit towards yourself. I just go naked bottle, and then boots into treads. A stout shield might be necessary in offlane, but shouldn't be obligatory in mid if you control creep aggro well. Any other extra regen or stats items don't really give you much-- you want to have treads up before the first night is over.
I really like blink after treads on him. It lets you maximize your damage during the Void slow, instead of having to catch up to them after you slow them. It lets you get out of sticky situations letting you gank with greater impunity. Lastly, being able to blink slow or blink silence gives you a way to be useful during the day.
Drum isn't terrible, but isn't fantastic either. I'm not sure if I recommend it at all or not-- maybe it's a substitute for blink in games where you're sucking early.
Don't build Aghs, it's a giant waste of gold.
If you're trying to be a consistent damage source over the course of the game (2nd farm priority and secondary damage source) maelstrom can be decent, basher is alright, and deso isn't bad. Often you have to grab BKB as your first major item though to continue to be a threat as the enemy catch up on levels.
AC, Halberd, Silver Edge, and to a lesser degree S/Y are all solid late-midgame/early-lategame pickups for a secondary damage dealer. Honestly you could probably get away with skipping the Blink to rush out Silver Edge in games you're doing well early.
For a more utility focused NS (3rd farm priority, or your team already has 2 other good damage sources) pipe, vlads, solar crest, AC again, Shiva, Halberd again, maybe Lotus?, maybe Atos, and maybe Necrobook are all good options, which you choose and in which order is entirely situational on the game.
I could see a NS going something like S/Y or Halberd, maybe Solar Crest, and then Skadi being a pretty decent anti-carry build if you already have 2 good damage sources and your 4 position support is getting some of the utility items mentioned above (as opposed to shit like force/blink/aghs), or if the enemy only has one good lategame damage source and they're not illusion based (e.g. a Sven, Lifestealer, or Alchemist in particular, but even the ranged agility carries as well).
As for skill build I definitely prefer favouring and maxing E first. Q first for csing, then two levels in your passive, and then I usually grab a second level in your first skill. Unless your supports are fighting someone fragile with a free escape spell and your 3-55 s silence could in conjunction with their nukes and disables make the difference between getting a kill and not (e.g. QoP, AM, Weaver, BH, etc), I wouldn't bother leveling it yet.
Your primary goal is maximizing your damage in the first night-- your damage comes from your IAS buff from passive on targets slowed by your nuke. The nuke scales poorly from the first to second rank, and especially if you get zoned so hard such that you're only level 3 at 4 minutes you're going to get more dps out of hitting them with an additional 15 IAS.
Not to mention that because his mana pool is so poor, even with consistent bottle use you're liable to running out of mana, so finding yourself with a slightly cheaper if weaker nuke isn't the end of the world. If you run out of mana before the first night is over your priority is still to remain a presence on the map, so you want to minimize wasting time healing and restoring mana beyond what is absolutely necessary. Therefore maximizing your MS and IAS takes priority to further leveling your nuke. Asks for support advice which is position 4/5 and then you talk about position 1-3 Nightstalker. Silence is picked up if it is needed for the gank in first night, so usually as a support you pick up 1 point in the other 2 skills and then hold the lvl 3 skill point if there is a hero you might need the silence for. Aghs is good on support to provide vision if your team has heroes to take advantage of it ie clock for hooks, blink initiation heroes and so on. I find aghs really amazing on this hero, it's just insane in any situations. I never really tested offlane nightstalker, but it probably works the same way: an utility ns with urn treads and farming an aghs. I think pos 1/2 night stalker is a thing of the past, he gets kited way too easily and cannot do anything against gyro, qop, lesh, etc
I agree, but sometimes you just need an item now ie medallion for rosh. This can end up delaying it so much, even worse if your not getting the ganks off.
Also wondering about oct core on ns. 60 second cooldown with 50 second duration on darkness, 9 sec cooldown on silence, 6 second cooldown on slow. Is it worth it for the cooldown reduction alone?
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Hell no. Your downtime is not really that relevant during level 16+ anyway unless it's a prolonged fight.
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On July 29 2015 19:23 Habitus wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2015 13:30 Nightmarjoo wrote:
Bottle is necessary, but leave urn for your supports. Yes it's good on him, but no, he doesn't no-shit need it.
Treads are for sure the best boots on him-- tread swapping helps his mana go a long way, and without the IAS boost during the day hitting things is extremely painful.
Your starting items are dependent on whatever is going to help you maximize your effectiveness during the first night, and by extension the early laning phasùe prior to the first night. Since he's such a shitty laner, even if you're going mid (I think he's a better offlaner if their offlane isn't too terrifying), that usually amounts to rushing your bottle and mostly last-hitting with just your nuke when you can't aggro-control an easy last-hit towards yourself. I just go naked bottle, and then boots into treads. A stout shield might be necessary in offlane, but shouldn't be obligatory in mid if you control creep aggro well. Any other extra regen or stats items don't really give you much-- you want to have treads up before the first night is over.
I really like blink after treads on him. It lets you maximize your damage during the Void slow, instead of having to catch up to them after you slow them. It lets you get out of sticky situations letting you gank with greater impunity. Lastly, being able to blink slow or blink silence gives you a way to be useful during the day.
Drum isn't terrible, but isn't fantastic either. I'm not sure if I recommend it at all or not-- maybe it's a substitute for blink in games where you're sucking early.
Don't build Aghs, it's a giant waste of gold.
If you're trying to be a consistent damage source over the course of the game (2nd farm priority and secondary damage source) maelstrom can be decent, basher is alright, and deso isn't bad. Often you have to grab BKB as your first major item though to continue to be a threat as the enemy catch up on levels.
AC, Halberd, Silver Edge, and to a lesser degree S/Y are all solid late-midgame/early-lategame pickups for a secondary damage dealer. Honestly you could probably get away with skipping the Blink to rush out Silver Edge in games you're doing well early.
For a more utility focused NS (3rd farm priority, or your team already has 2 other good damage sources) pipe, vlads, solar crest, AC again, Shiva, Halberd again, maybe Lotus?, maybe Atos, and maybe Necrobook are all good options, which you choose and in which order is entirely situational on the game.
I could see a NS going something like S/Y or Halberd, maybe Solar Crest, and then Skadi being a pretty decent anti-carry build if you already have 2 good damage sources and your 4 position support is getting some of the utility items mentioned above (as opposed to shit like force/blink/aghs), or if the enemy only has one good lategame damage source and they're not illusion based (e.g. a Sven, Lifestealer, or Alchemist in particular, but even the ranged agility carries as well).
As for skill build I definitely prefer favouring and maxing E first. Q first for csing, then two levels in your passive, and then I usually grab a second level in your first skill. Unless your supports are fighting someone fragile with a free escape spell and your 3-55 s silence could in conjunction with their nukes and disables make the difference between getting a kill and not (e.g. QoP, AM, Weaver, BH, etc), I wouldn't bother leveling it yet.
Your primary goal is maximizing your damage in the first night-- your damage comes from your IAS buff from passive on targets slowed by your nuke. The nuke scales poorly from the first to second rank, and especially if you get zoned so hard such that you're only level 3 at 4 minutes you're going to get more dps out of hitting them with an additional 15 IAS.
Not to mention that because his mana pool is so poor, even with consistent bottle use you're liable to running out of mana, so finding yourself with a slightly cheaper if weaker nuke isn't the end of the world. If you run out of mana before the first night is over your priority is still to remain a presence on the map, so you want to minimize wasting time healing and restoring mana beyond what is absolutely necessary. Therefore maximizing your MS and IAS takes priority to further leveling your nuke. Asks for support advice which is position 4/5 and then you talk about position 1-3 Nightstalker. Silence is picked up if it is needed for the gank in first night, so usually as a support you pick up 1 point in the other 2 skills and then hold the lvl 3 skill point if there is a hero you might need the silence for. Aghs is good on support to provide vision if your team has heroes to take advantage of it ie clock for hooks, blink initiation heroes and so on.
Aghs is also amazing for scouting out high ground wards (with a gem) and seeing who your smoke broke to / seeing a broken smoke before they see you.
Personally I like picking the nightstalker specifically for the silence (e.g. playing against a qop, choose between sky support or ns support depending on your/their lineup).
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octarine is pretty good on ns
if u have aghs gem octarine the game's actually unplayable for the opposing team unless they have very specific heroes
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I love offlane NS so much, it's so good now. n_n
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9070 Posts
I think ns offlane is super legit but kinda suffers from the same problem as offlane ogre in 6.83. Yes the hero has a huge roaming potential but when he is solo it becomes super obvious when he is not in lane so you just need to play safe for a while. Also I think he is kinda bad vs gyro and you cant really dive him lvl 4-5
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I liked Nightmarjoo's tips, despite the fact that the previous post asked for support information. I think most of the choices and strats were well justified.
I have been playing NS lately and was super curious as to why some people so strongly think Aghs is core. So I did some looking into it and see that it can be a great addition if properly used. I still can't see this being core on a 1/2 position NS, however in 6.85 I am not sure if 1/2 position NS is that great of a decision, there are far better heros for those positions. The reason being that 4200 gold simply just gives you flying vision - in a pub taking advantage of that vision in the mid to late game is going to be hard to coordinate, as solo ganking mid to late can get dangerous as most the time people start to group. On a 5 stack taking advantage of the vision to get a really good initiation on a group of 3 enemies etc. would make it worth. So in my mind it ends up being situational and not a core. With that said, I would think it would totally be a core on a support NS with a gem. I actually think a support NS with a gem and aghs is pretty awesome the more I think about it, I now want to go play support NS. He seems to have some great characteristics for fitting the support role: mobility, vision, easier to get last hits than other supports, tanky so can hold a gem, great skills for supporting, can do damage in team fights.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/images/c/c4/Night_Stalker_Large.png)
