EPTit's like ana is the new miracle while jerax is truly the new crit.
OG Discussion - Page 28
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nanaoei
3358 Posts
it's like ana is the new miracle while jerax is truly the new crit. | ||
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BreakupBoy
Germany171 Posts
If the pubs are any indicator, then I guess he will play a very similar role to Miracle- and be the true carry of this team. OG is definitely the team I'm most excited for after EG, I think s4 will need some time to get used to his new role but I really think he can become one of the best at the offlane position, his skill set just suits the role so damn well. s4 will also add to the draft and strategies overall, I think it's extremely valuable to have these kind of players on your team as a captain, players who you can ask for their opinion or their ideas on the game. Really excited for MDL next week, can't wait! | ||
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GumBa
United Kingdom31935 Posts
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GumBa
United Kingdom31935 Posts
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LemOn
United Kingdom8629 Posts
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nanaoei
3358 Posts
On October 01 2016 23:55 LemOn wrote: Yeah Ana needs to learn boundaries and more heroes (that jugg mid he must have played for the first time vs a competent team capable of ganks ) but he has the superstar potential sumail and Miracle had when they burst on the scene i spoke earlier in this thread about my thoughts on ana, but I really can't help but want him and the rest of OG to win. they bring something new to the scene in their picks and playstyle and it's usually very coherent as a team style. I still believe ana is very easy to gank as a player and will continue to struggle on that front until he gets some pointers or scrims under his belt. the addendum is that some of their game plans fall apart with execution and the draw of the cards, making some of their MDL games look absolutely horrible starting from the laning phase. an example is the sven aggressive tri-lane (w/ sniper mid) game 3 vs newbee. if they get some control out of the game, the rest of laning doesn't look nearly as bad and they retain control over mid lane as sven is much more independent and can actually finish kills the way they want to with batrider. but, because of some tiny details during laning, the KotL rubick, sven trio ends up feeding and we all know what happens after that. this is super volatile, even more than some of their previous all-in drafts (like with veno, beastmaster mid) and I feel it's somewhat unnecessary since they probably know that themselves. I believe ana's current hero pool is all the conventional carries, invoker, alch, OD none of the heroes played in offlane, and a handful of junglers. I think that's all they need right now but evidently they adjust the game plan to meet his comfort. | ||
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LemOn
United Kingdom8629 Posts
e.g. that bladefury to offensively farm on early levels mid just to die to 3 ganks in a row was pure inexperience. The mid seeing it calling to supports and them instantly both coming to punish him pretty much will never happen even in highest level MMR games. I just hope OG will the go the route of not skipping on smaller tournaments and getting as many competitive matches in besides scrims, purely for Ana's sake | ||
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GumBa
United Kingdom31935 Posts
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LemOn
United Kingdom8629 Posts
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GumBa
United Kingdom31935 Posts
3rd place overall is pretty good with a new roster and I am pretty happy and look forward to watching them in future and see Ana and s4 improve over time. | ||
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hashaki
Norway210 Posts
On October 02 2016 21:33 GumBa wrote: Well give him some time on offlane . s4 has always been a inconsistent player for 2 years now and while his hero pool is pretty good for offlane you still need time to get down all the nuances. I think he performed decently this event with some good games e.g. his bat game vs igv or his axe games etc. Yes, but I think S4 (And OG as a team) should consider using S4 more as a teamfight-oriented offlaner (like Universe who plays things like Void, Tide, Dark Seer) more often than tempocontroller/initiators like Bat/Puck/etc. S4 is a really smart player with good mechanics but his playstyle is still very cocky, risky and too much offence with little regard for his own life and thus his team. This has shown over the last years and has nothing to do with him playing offlane now. I would love to see S4 on more teamfightcontrolling heroes just to see how it plays out. Sadly I think S4 limits his own hero pool by thinking and saying he isn't comfortable (enough) with certain heroes to play them in officials despite him probably being very good on them. You hear me S4? You have the brains and fingers for it, now you just need to grow a set of balls to go with them  | ||
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LemOn
United Kingdom8629 Posts
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GumBa
United Kingdom31935 Posts
On October 03 2016 00:18 LemOn wrote: S4 was consistently falling out in farm in mid late game though over the last year or so, think greedy Ana!No tail with playmaking S4 works well, he just needs to get better Yeah his playstyle fits perfectly to the offlane and lends itself towards greedy mid players like Ana | ||
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TurboNash
36 Posts
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nanaoei
3358 Posts
it has to do with heroes, their purpose, and then the overall hero pool in the game. do you notice how notail is usually playing the stale heroes? the venomancers, the razors, the non-farming heroes. at some point they decided that they'll each play to their strengths after trying various distributions (such as mid-only for miracle-, safelane only for miracle-) but they eventually decided on something that very evidently worked. an example of a hero that sinks or floats is Death Prophet. if she gets what she needs to get done, survives fights, she is a top-4 networth hero all game long. if not, goodbyte chances of having a good game, your role changes pretty heavily from damage-dealing to playing interception, splitpusher, euls-bot. of course, this then has to do with what player decision-making and how they make the hero look better than it should. you would think that there are those special players who do well no matter what, but given the same situation on a bad hero, bad matchup, or bad game-situation, they will suffer just as hard if not more. they pick a hero, and they say "hey, we will do this, get what you can from the map (while we make space for you)", miracle or whoever else goes and farms with a hero that is suited to farming and using the map. that immediately makes it look like the player is on par or better on farm than anyone else in the game, which is only half-true. they are better on farm because the opponents are forced to react to something and waste their time, while the player gaining space is farming and pulling ahead, constantly through bits and pieces of the game. do you really not think that most pro-carries know how to use the map if given the opportunity to? to most of these player I imagine it's a damn honour to play in the game if they get to have their way. but no one's going to let that happen without some sort of fight or set of hardships. or else, why not alch mid, AM, void, cm, kotl, and etc. every single game? of course, that leads onto the point of how much you actually use the map, and the decisions to be greedier--taking space, making members in your team suffer on purpose because there is a payoff you have in mind. I don't believe notail is this sort of player and you can for sure say that sometimes he should be. if you look at notail games, he has to be creative to find farm, find camps that no one else will be farming 1 minute from now. it is obviously less efficient most of the time and this adds up over the course of the game, but the team is richer than it should be. you also need to consider his teamfight contribution in raw damage for games where he cannot be farming all game, or had a bad game in general. he is always doing some of the most damage to the other team despite his items. why is that? well, basically it can be two things. 1. he takes teamfights often, high participation which can be positive and negative in many cases. 2. high contribution, and teamfighting well, contributing well, casting spells, etc. at MDL in the very last game they bombed out, I am still scratching my head at how notail is farming a radiance at a reasonable time after something like a 0/3 start in a failed lane. naga is no alchemist, they both farm at nearly the same speed but alchemist gets much more gold from the same camps, so a feeding start most of the time affects naga more. on to the point of Ana. if you give a player decisions to make or solo performances, adverse situations, they simply learn the do's and dont's. it is much better to draw that line early than to have to rudely awaken to it much further down the line. if you give a player food for thought, they have something on their plate for games to come. that is firmly what I believe OG tried to do with their team for MDL and is the right move overall, even if they're suffering in their games more than they need to. as Fly said in an interview, he can tell ana some things, but he'd rather like him to figure out some things on his own. back to notail. it really comes down to responsibilities and what's required of you. you can go to any area in life and draw parallels to what is happening with his farm. go to an MMORPG, raiding and such. if someone is required to do mechanics, move around on the battlefield and turn on switches and levers for the entire group as a DPS, his DPS will never reach the same levels as someone who is just expected to stand and deliver the whole time. if a kid is fed with a silver spoon his entire life, the amount he has to work for by hand is lessened as well. but when you have to take responsibility that requires you to move about, sacrifice yourself as well as maximize what you do get and what you can output to the rest of the field, that is what makes you a good carry player IMO. I am a little tired of people viewing as notail as this player who just doesn't get it, then act surprised that when he's on a natural farming carry (more rare than not) such as TB, naga, etc. he is doing well and actually carrying. why is that a surprise? I really wonder. believe it or not, notail can player heroes like antimage rather than your gyrocopters, lifestealers, etc. certainly I would not be surprised if he performed on them, but I'd surely be surprised if the team actually decides that's the strategy they'll use, because ana is overall the carry who requires more and plays to get more (farm, items, map). the concept of RTZ and sumail not working, or RTZ or envy not working isn't without merit. it stems from a player like rtz farming and using a lot of the map. he is the most efficient at this style of play and it is very obviously his most comfortable mode. if you gave him notail's role, I guarantee he falls flat in the very same ways especially if he is still learning the role. so they don't do that. if everyone were perfect yeah, everyone plays a farming hero that can contribute just enough to squeeze by the rougher patches of the game. but that's not the case. everyone has to play to their own strengths (and weaknesses) and do the best they can with sometimes not very good hero picks. | ||
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PandaRed
France58 Posts
That morphling/elder titan combo was really fun to watch | ||
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LemOn
United Kingdom8629 Posts
Also Notail is probably one of the best players in the scene now in his role, Liquid should take notes on how he enables Ana. That stack when he was behind, worked hard for it was perfect for him to catch up, blade fury ready and he calls ana and tells him to take it anyways and goea back to lane. People criticising Notail must now feel retarded, it's pretty clear he carried Miracle and not the other way around and could do it with any pubstar It's just so painful to watch Miracle and Matumba man constantly cross farming paths where Notail makes it work seamlessly, that shit takes skill and I really see how important he is now I've seen my boys in Liquid just not working out. | ||
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Emnjay808
United States10654 Posts
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HeYmaney
Switzerland193 Posts
OG/EG was so nice to watch. | ||
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nanaoei
3358 Posts
On November 18 2016 10:15 LemOn wrote: Jerax needs to be nerfed, like Volvo break his fingers or something because what's he been showing is just too good. Also Notail is probably one of the best players in the scene now in his role, Liquid should take notes on how he enables Ana. That stack when he was behind, worked hard for it was perfect for him to catch up, blade fury ready and he calls ana and tells him to take it anyways and goea back to lane. People criticising Notail must now feel retarded, it's pretty clear he carried Miracle and not the other way around and could do it with any pubstar It's just so painful to watch Miracle and Matumba man constantly cross farming paths where Notail makes it work seamlessly, that shit takes skill and I really see how important he is now I've seen my boys in Liquid just not working out. i have to say that notail plays pretty inefficiently (pretty much since forever) but that lends itself to other things like turning around small skirmishes or punishing dive attempts. there's also being a magnet or the whole feeling of "this guy is crazy/doesn't play very normally" so teams will play slightly more safe knowing that they'll eventually get more economy. i would say it's much too early to say whether it was the notail difference or whether it's a combination of other things like liquid unable to mesh. on the other side of the coin, credit is owed to ana for being a pretty good pubstar, though admittedly i haven't seen his pubs to see his individual play on certain heroes lately. it's very nice that he's able to fit in and play well with the entire OG team. i like how OG is playing, but right now the dota atmosphere has a lot to do with how laning goes and we all know how volatile that can get even at the pro level. i think their smokes and movements have been relatively top notch recently and we'll see once they play vp/wings if that's enough. again, once everything stabilizes a bit and perhaps liquid comes out of its slump/starts performing, we'll really know what difference it all makes, keeping in mind that players are still improving on their own day by day. i can confidently say that miracle doesn't deserve the flak as he is and will continue to be one of the very best in w/e lane he chooses to play. i view it as having less exposure because the game they're playing aren't in the spotlight anymore (underperforming) and he's not getting to be as flashy and dominant and as greedy as before--which again, comes down to many factors including what you mentioned with notail's selflessness. | ||
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