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On January 21 2015 07:47 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2015 07:30 FHDH wrote:On January 21 2015 06:34 WolfintheSheep wrote:
TT has always had a plan...this is Liquid2.0 remember. They have one page in their playbook and the stick to it, even when every other team on the planet knows what they're doing.
And then they make roster/role changes, get a new one-page playbook and make their fans think something's changed. This post reminds me of when people come to Na'Vi thread and say Dendi isn't good any more. And your posts remind me of 46 straight pages of cyclical hype into heartbreak. I mean, just once, can the fanboys actually wait for TT to get their shit together before saying that they have their shit together?
they need to get their shit together !
well i didn't expect for them to win against 4asc .. so i guess they are better with the new lineup i hope they don't change
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On January 21 2015 09:00 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Or maybe someone who isn't a fanboy can look at those games and see that 4ASC had really stupid drafts and laning, and it's not hard to look good when the other team is bad.
Or that game 2, which people keep saying showed "leadership" and a "plan" still involved Qojqva, Bulba and SingSing being out of position constantly, feeding Aegis+Life twice in a row, and winning mostly because Lycan+Beastmaster can hit buildings well.
It was obvious to anyone who has been watching Tinker play that their movement and use of the map was far more purposeful than it has been in recent outings.
Sorry, you're just wrong here.
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like even though qojqva died unnecessarily at times their map movement had purpose, old tinker would have failed on decisive split push moves
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On January 21 2015 09:25 FHDH wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2015 09:00 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Or maybe someone who isn't a fanboy can look at those games and see that 4ASC had really stupid drafts and laning, and it's not hard to look good when the other team is bad.
Or that game 2, which people keep saying showed "leadership" and a "plan" still involved Qojqva, Bulba and SingSing being out of position constantly, feeding Aegis+Life twice in a row, and winning mostly because Lycan+Beastmaster can hit buildings well. It was obvious to anyone who has been watching Tinker play that their movement and use of the map was far more purposeful than it has been in recent outings. Sorry, you're just wrong here.
How "recent" are we talking here?
It's not like TT loses every single game they ever play, and when they win they've looked actually decent. And 4ASC was one of the teams that they did beat before (and that was when Jerax was still there).
It's when someone trips them a little and makes them think they're behind that they start running around like scared children.
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To a casual observer, yes, a win with a good kill score is all it takes to think something has changed. But again, looking very specifically at how they were playing the game, they looked horribly disorganized in the past even when they won. They didn't use the map like a pro team. This series they did. It was a very noticeable difference, and even if they lost that second game the difference would still have been there, the loss would have just been from slop, which has by no means disappeared.
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On January 21 2015 09:43 FHDH wrote:
To a casual observer, yes, a win with a good kill score is all it takes to think something has changed. But again, looking very specifically at how they were playing the game, they looked horribly disorganized in the past even when they won. They didn't use the map like a pro team. This series they did. It was a very noticeable difference, and even if they lost that second game the difference would still have been there, the loss would have just been from slop, which has by no means disappeared.
I'd say the difference was much more that every single core got the stay in their lanes and farm almost freely for the entire early games.
I mean, it's easy to talk in hindsight and mention all these what-ifs, but how many of their games have been lost because their offlaner is getting nothing in lane and has to take jungle/ancient stacks, which means Qojqva can't go there to accelerate his farm, which means the supports can't go into lane to soak xp and gold, and then Qojqva and the safelaner are fighting over who gets to hog all the available CS?
Who knows, maybe things have changed up. But I think the moment Bulba actually gets a hard lane, or when they start losing a trilane, or when the enemy team can actually apply pressure around the map and it forces Qojqva and Bulldog to be active, it's going to be right back into the same old problems.
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You might have to look at it in hindsight but I was seeing the difference in real time. I can't speak for everyone in this thread who is excited about Tinker not embarrassing themselves for once but I feel confident that what I saw was play on a completely different level of coordination, in ways we have noticed specifically they were lacking before.
Tinker didn't just look like a pub in results, they looked like it in the way your pubs do when you know you're going to lose, when no one knows when they are supposed to be farming or mustering. When you have four guys hanging out mid and no one in your jungle farming. That's what they have looked like. That's what they didn't look like.
Some might just look at game stats and try and make an argument out of it. I watch the damn games, and I am telling you, they were far better coordinated in important ways.
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Everyone, let's wait to see how they perform against VP before making conclusions like "it was a fluke" or "Team Tinker TI Champions confirmed".
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On January 21 2015 16:36 Saki [NETOGE] wrote:
Everyone, let's wait to see how they perform against VP before making conclusions like "it was a fluke" or "Team Tinker TI Champions confirmed".
dude the kick note pattern must continue.
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On January 21 2015 09:16 goody153 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2015 07:47 WolfintheSheep wrote:On January 21 2015 07:30 FHDH wrote:On January 21 2015 06:34 WolfintheSheep wrote:
TT has always had a plan...this is Liquid2.0 remember. They have one page in their playbook and the stick to it, even when every other team on the planet knows what they're doing.
And then they make roster/role changes, get a new one-page playbook and make their fans think something's changed. This post reminds me of when people come to Na'Vi thread and say Dendi isn't good any more. And your posts remind me of 46 straight pages of cyclical hype into heartbreak. I mean, just once, can the fanboys actually wait for TT to get their shit together before saying that they have their shit together? they need to get their shit together !well i didn't expect for them to win against 4asc .. so i guess they are better with the new lineup i hope they don't change
I didn't expect them to win too actually.
Game two was going to be stomp too, if qojqva didn't feed twice in a row aegis + life. That kind of failed their plan to push highground with aegis, and forced the rest of the team to die creating space for split push. This gave 4ASC the chance to get back in to the game and their SF was basically 6 slotted when lycan was 4... That made the game hard.
Lycan is not qojqva's best hero obviously, but hey - everyone makes mistakes, that happens and you will get punished for it - after all you are playing against pro's.
Even if they lost BOTH games i see the lineup, the draft and the ingame plan to execute it a step in the right direction. They definitely have the talent and experience to get to TI5 and to get a very good result if they can work the synergy between them out.
Remember one of their last games in DAC qualifiers against NaVi - they picked all in lineup with axe / jug / wisp and tree against secured lategame for navi with weaver / troll - obviously very aggressive lineup with a plan to give the oponent no towers and map control with the pick of the tree. Then they decided to avoid fights and farm jungle for 30 minutes, while not defending towers and ofcourse na vi won with almost one push... that kind of thing can not happen to pro team. If you draft all in - you all in, you dive towers you defend your own on all costs, and if that fails - you gg in 15 mins. If not - you win.
This new lineup with Jerax drafting and Bulldong in the team has a lot of surprise potential.
Bulldog can Play 1,2,3
Sing can play 1,2,3,4,5
Bulba can play 2,3,4,5
Qojqva can play 1,2,3
The only certain thing is JerAx supporting, but don't forget that Earth Spirit will come online probably with the next patch.
I mean a there a strats that they can work out giving their opponents a very hard time to guess their game plan during the draft phase. And that means at least even draft, if not better, and thats already an advantage from the start.
Fingers crossed, lets not get over hyped too early.
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Bulldog can Play 1,2,3
Sing can play 1,2,3,4,5
Bulba can play 2,3,4,5
Qojqva can play 1,2,3
Yeah but seriously they need to stop doing this. I mean maybe it would have worked better with clearer leadership in the past but they have to get people settled into roles. Flexibility is good; lack of positional excellence is not.
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On January 21 2015 18:49 FHDH wrote:Show nested quote +Bulldog can Play 1,2,3
Sing can play 1,2,3,4,5
Bulba can play 2,3,4,5
Qojqva can play 1,2,3 Yeah but seriously they need to stop doing this. I mean maybe it would have worked better with clearer leadership in the past but they have to get people settled into roles. Flexibility is good; lack of positional excellence is not.
This. At this level I dont believe in "everybody can play all positions whenever needed". It's clearly impossible, especially for supports.
That being said, a possibility is that yesterday we saw their definite positions. I dont see Bulldog joining them for playing 3 again (he played a lort of 1 lately on stream from what I4ve been told). So Qojqva has to be 2 (I dont see him playing good 3, unlike some are saying). Hence Bulba 3 (Sing is not a good 3 neither) and Sing 4/5.
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On January 21 2015 19:29 Furikawari wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2015 18:49 FHDH wrote:Bulldog can Play 1,2,3
Sing can play 1,2,3,4,5
Bulba can play 2,3,4,5
Qojqva can play 1,2,3 Yeah but seriously they need to stop doing this. I mean maybe it would have worked better with clearer leadership in the past but they have to get people settled into roles. Flexibility is good; lack of positional excellence is not. This. At this level I dont believe in "everybody can play all positions whenever needed". It's clearly impossible, especially for supports. That being said, a possibility is that yesterday we saw their definite positions. I dont see Bulldog joining them for playing 3 again (he played a lort of 1 lately on stream from what I4ve been told). So Qojqva has to be 2 (I dont see him playing good 3, unlike some are saying). Hence Bulba 3 (Sing is not a good 3 neither) and Sing 4/5.
Qojqva is pretty good at laning. Also he can use many heroes in a decent level.
but his style though has a fallback which requires him to have a good or ok start(means he needs farm) .. he's like another rtz or some shit
i think he fits as a 2 pos
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On January 21 2015 19:29 Furikawari wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2015 18:49 FHDH wrote:Bulldog can Play 1,2,3
Sing can play 1,2,3,4,5
Bulba can play 2,3,4,5
Qojqva can play 1,2,3 Yeah but seriously they need to stop doing this. I mean maybe it would have worked better with clearer leadership in the past but they have to get people settled into roles. Flexibility is good; lack of positional excellence is not. This. At this level I dont believe in "everybody can play all positions whenever needed". It's clearly impossible, especially for supports. That being said, a possibility is that yesterday we saw their definite positions. I dont see Bulldog joining them for playing 3 again (he played a lort of 1 lately on stream from what I4ve been told). So Qojqva has to be 2 (I dont see him playing good 3, unlike some are saying). Hence Bulba 3 (Sing is not a good 3 neither) and Sing 4/5.
Qojqva still plays amazing NP and if Lone Druid gets some love from Icefrog he is pretty great with that too. Also his batrider is really solid. These are some possible offlane heroes if Qojqva goes to pos 3, also he can play centaur for sure.
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GUYS THEY WON TWO GAMES!!! I mean who do we think they are going to play in the finals of TI? TT confirmed best team in the world. qojqva next burning, jerax best captain.
We are going to be alright guys everything is going to be fine.
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rofl
why people hate on TT so much
fans are happy their team won the first series in almost 10 yrs and optimistic for getting a TI winner in the team
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Its so funny how a week ago posting a positive comment in this thread led to rage/flam. btw, may i toot my own horn? I called TT.Bdong months ago (just coz gga).
its also funny how their weakness "all cores"is now suddenly their strength lmao. bandwagon hypu. I'm just fanboy boys, but at least be brave enough to admit it.
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just watched the vods, there were definitely improvements in movement and coordination. Makes me somewhat less concerned about the future of this team.
hope that bulldog stays and that sing dedicates himself to learning the 4/5 role as he's better at it than bulba (imho)
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tbh that series they actually looked like somebody was leading them and they have crisp map movement not the clueless walk and farm around anywhere ..
looks like this addition of ADB(some pros stated ADB has great map awareness) and Jerax(jerax is a captain soo) are working so far .
On January 21 2015 20:20 YourGoodFriend wrote:
GUYS THEY WON TWO GAMES!!! I mean who do we think they are going to play in the finals of TI? TT confirmed best team in the world. qojqva next burning, jerax best captain.
We are going to be alright guys everything is going to be fine.
Jerax next gen xiao8
dude how'd you forget that
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Well it seems like they realized winning a dota game comes down to destroying buildings faster than the other team.
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EPT
