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Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion - Page 642
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
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Unleashing
Denmark14978 Posts
It is far from baseless to suggest that the reason something, like for example the more core video game audience is primarily male isn't solely due to how hostile/unwelcoming it is to women(Which it definitely is) but also because it at its base video games are simply more likely to be more appealing to men compared to women even if we disregard the fact that most core video games are made for the male audience. | ||
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andyrau
13015 Posts
On March 03 2015 06:50 eieio wrote: ya dota community is definitely drama-light because of lack of girls well I just wanted to point out a correlation I noticed, not saying women are the only source of it most of the other drama between dudes as something like 'you're underperforming/you're always late to raids so you're getting the boot' type shit and it's easier to resolve than drama that brings irl stuff up which is a headache | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On March 03 2015 07:28 Unleashing wrote: Studies have shown that there are actual biological differences to the general interests of men and women (Logic and systems vs Empathy and social interaction for an unrelated example) It is far from baseless to suggest that the reason something, like for example the more core video game audience is primarily male isn't solely due to how hostile/unwelcoming it is to women(Which it definitely is) but also because it at its base video games are simply more likely to be more appealing to men compared to women even if we disregard the fact that most core video games are made for the male audience. I always see this arguments as some sort of cover for the over all hostility towards women interested in gaming. I don't think its invalid, but I question how great the effect is, if any. Until the hostility is drastically reduced(by more ladies being involved with the scene), when we will never how much these biological factors really matter, if at all. | ||
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ahswtini
Northern Ireland22213 Posts
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Unleashing
Denmark14978 Posts
On March 03 2015 07:33 Plansix wrote: I always see this arguments as some sort of cover for the over all hostility towards women interested in gaming. I don't think its invalid, but I question how great the effect is, if any. Until the hostility is drastically reduced(by more ladies being involved with the scene), when we will never how much these biological factors really matter, if at all. Of course they matter, to say they don't or that they might not is honestly just stupid imho. It might not quite be the almost 90:10 ratio that some of the core games represent at the moment but there is most definitely a biological factor in play that will always create some sort of skewed gender ratio towards men in regards to the core and competitive video game market. Also i would like to add that i did not use said argument as a 'cover for the overall hosility towards women interested in gaming' i accept that said hosility exists and most definitely will drive some women away from gaming, surely a noteworthy and statistically significant amount even, which is not acceptable, everyone should feel welcome if they want to play/have fun with it. But i also don't believe that even if all gender related things were removed, even if marketing and production was 100% equal towards both genders and even if there was zero hosility that for example a FPS game like CS:GO would ever reach even just a 60:40% ratio, i think even for that game a 70:30% ratio or something near it is likely going to exist. To say that there is a biological difference isn't to say that men are better at gaming or that no women are interested, just that averagely more men will be into it. Likewise there are also activities, sports, whatever that women are more interested in than men. Episode one of the norwegian TV show "Hjernevask" is quite educational to most people in regards to this very topic i would imagine. It goes into the nurture vs nature debate in specific regards to the interests of men vs women and how big a role both have on us, in this show it isn't quite video games that are in focus but more professions in general but the overall arguments still stand. | ||
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Comeh
United States18919 Posts
On March 03 2015 07:13 Shaella wrote: excuse me i'm a cactus. shaella definitely isn't a girl, | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
On March 03 2015 07:49 Unleashing wrote: Of course they matter, to say they don't or that they might not is honestly just stupid imho. It might not quite be the almost 90:10 ratio that some of the core games represent at the moment but there is most definitely a biological factor in play that will always create some sort of skewed gender ratio towards men in regards to the core and competitive video game market. Also i would like to add that i did not use said argument as a 'cover for the overall hosility towards women interested in gaming' i accept that said hosility exists and most definitely will drive some women away from gaming, surely a noteworthy and statistically significant amount even, which is not acceptable, everyone should feel welcome if they want to play/have fun with it. But i also don't believe that even if all gender related things were removed, even if marketing and production was 100% equal towards both genders and even if there was zero hosility that for example a FPS game like CS:GO would ever reach even just a 60:40% ratio, i think even for that game a 70:30% ratio or something near it is likely going to exist. To say that there is a biological difference isn't to say that men are better at gaming or that no women are interested, just that averagely more men will be into it. Likewise there are also activities, sports, whatever that women are more interested in than men. Episode one of the norwegian TV show "Hjernevask" is quite educational to most people in regards to this very topic i would imagine. It goes into the nurture vs nature debate in specific regards to the interests of men vs women and how big a role both have on us, in this show it isn't quite video games that are in focus but more professions in general but the overall arguments still stand. the polgar children would like a word with you | ||
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Unleashing
Denmark14978 Posts
On March 03 2015 07:56 Sn0_Man wrote: the polgar children would like a word with you I assume you mean Judit, Susan and Sofia Polgár? I stated in my post that men aren't inherently better, just more likely to be interested. So i fail to see what 'word' they would like with me. A woman can easily be better than a man at any given thing. | ||
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crms
United States11933 Posts
The only issue is when people place importance on the tasks men or women are more likely to be better at to the point of discrimination or if they speak in absolutes 'all men' or 'all women'. There is going to be a wide spectrum by each kind of task where MOST of it is overlapped and only at the fringes will certain sexual biases really be highlighted. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On March 03 2015 07:49 Unleashing wrote: Of course they matter, to say they don't or that they might not is honestly just stupid imho. It might not quite be the almost 90:10 ratio that some of the core games represent at the moment but there is most definitely a biological factor in play that will always create some sort of skewed gender ratio towards men in regards to the core and competitive video game market. Why is it necessarily a biological factor rather than social or cultural? In my mind, the predisposition of men toward computer/video games is more a product of the more general predisposition of men toward technology/computers, but whether that's in part biological, or rather just how social/cultural norms around computers developed in the last 30-40 years is in and of itself a contentious argument. | ||
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Unleashing
Denmark14978 Posts
On March 03 2015 08:03 TheYango wrote: Why is it necessarily a biological factor rather than social or cultural? Both cultural and social influences will definitely also have an effect, the TV show i refer in my post goes into this specifically and i also wrote in the post that things such as marketing, hostility and even the way games are made/designed definitely create a market far more appealing to men. Both "nurture(social/cultural) and nature(biological)" have an influence on our interests and who we are, you can't ignore either when talking about things like these. I couldn't tell you which is more important than the other however, but i strongly believe both are important to consider. Which is why i believe competitive games will continue to be skewed towards men regardless of our cultural or social norms/standards and how the industry approach it all. I believe it's the same reasons why some jobs continue to be male dominated and some continue to be female dominated regardless of opportunities or options, there is more than just our cultural and social norms affecting who we end up becoming and what we are interested in. I will once again recommend the TV show "Hjernevask" i believe there are english subs out there and that it should be quite easy to find even with very weak google-fu. | ||
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eieio
United States14512 Posts
On March 03 2015 07:29 andyrau wrote: well I just wanted to point out a correlation I noticed, not saying women are the only source of it most of the other drama between dudes as something like 'you're underperforming/you're always late to raids so you're getting the boot' type shit and it's easier to resolve than drama that brings irl stuff up which is a headache it was mostly just a throwaway joke, I don't really disagree lol I mean dota has Sayuri drama too idk. And guy/girl drama is definitely different no matter where you are. More emotions/feelings than a typical fight. it was just funny to me because of how absurdly dramatic video game communities are these days. Although I'm like 99% sure that's mostly because of how reddit works. | ||
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PassiveAce
United States18076 Posts
especially young people | ||
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Kupon3ss
時の回廊10066 Posts
http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2014/10/21/357629765/when-women-stopped-coding Inherently when a product is overwhelmingly pushed upon one sex and not the other and that perception is reinforced across generations, people are going to see the effects. | ||
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Shaella
United States14828 Posts
Shits a mistake. but as for 'negative towards wimminz' in online, studies have shown that men actually get MORE harassment online, women just get a lot more sexual harassment online compared to men, men get more in general. | ||
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eieio
United States14512 Posts
On March 03 2015 08:24 Kupon3ss wrote: Overall its actually far more of a societal and development issue than a biological one. The majority of the gulf between men and women in computer science arises from willful marketing of the production and the creation of societal norms and expectations over decades. http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2014/10/21/357629765/when-women-stopped-coding Inherently when a product is overwhelmingly pushed upon one sex and not the other and that perception is reinforced across generations, people are going to see the effects. I was gonna make basically this post. only mistake that NPR makes there is not mentioning Grace Hopper, the badass who coined 'debugging' and 'computer bug' | ||
BluemoonSC
SoCal8933 Posts
On March 03 2015 07:12 teddyoojo wrote: shaella is probably the best example why more girls wouldnt make the community better wait wait wait is shaella a woman? | ||
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Shaella
United States14828 Posts
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eieio
United States14512 Posts
On March 03 2015 08:26 Shaella wrote: but as for 'negative towards wimminz' in online, studies have shown that men actually get MORE harassment online, women just get a lot more sexual harassment online compared to men, men get more in general. do you want to show any studies because as far as I know this just isn't true lol for example: http://icbtt.arizona.edu/sites/default/files/Underwood_and_Rosen_(in_press).pdf However, the majority of the extant research suggests that girls are involved in cyber bullying both as perpetrators and victims at rates that are equal to or higher than that of their male counterparts | ||
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