On April 15 2015 02:15 SKC wrote: TI3 finals > TI2 finals was always a very popular opinion.
In which case the amount of "TI3 finals were just as shit, TI finals are just like that" that came out after the anticlimactic TI4 finals should have been more than a little surprising to you.
On April 15 2015 02:12 Comeh wrote: its hard for me to tell if it was just becuase I was newer to the game, or if TI2 meta was actually just better.
TI2 meta was way worse, I mean Naga/Lycan were like the top 2 P/B heroes, lol. It's just the storyline of TI2 led to a really dynamic series between Faith/Puppey's drafting that runs totally counter to the idea that a figured-out version leads to stale series where teams only pick the same shit.
On April 15 2015 02:10 Sn0_Man wrote: comeback mechanics remain unjustifiable and fundamentally flawed and cannot be numerically tweaked to be both relevant and unharmful.
Unless, of course, you always want games that end up in highground defences being hte most important part of the game.
Honestly, most of the strong heroes (besides troll) only need some small tweaks. Jugg will be balanced iwth a 1.6 BAT. Sniper will be balanced with a CD on shrapnel (even if its short like 5-7 seconds), and so on.
its that or I think removing the vision it grants is probably good so that sniper can still have a way to escape an early gank
i think we need to stop calling it a "comeback" mechanic bc its apparent that it keeps leads down to a minimum early in order to keep the game closer as you get into the mid game.
it just leads to retarded scenarios where if you're a support and you're winning you get next to no gold/xp for a kill..but if you're losing heavily early on and you get 2 kills suddenly that's your blink dagger and a million xp.
On April 15 2015 02:10 Sn0_Man wrote: comeback mechanics remain unjustifiable and fundamentally flawed and cannot be numerically tweaked to be both relevant and unharmful.
Unless, of course, you always want games that end up in highground defences being hte most important part of the game.
Honestly, most of the strong heroes (besides troll) only need some small tweaks. Jugg will be balanced iwth a 1.6 BAT. Sniper will be balanced with a CD on shrapnel (even if its short like 5-7 seconds), and so on.
its that or I think removing the vision it grants is probably good so that sniper can still have a way to escape an early gank
i think we need to stop calling it a "comeback" mechanic bc its apparent that it keeps leads down to a minimum early in order to keep the game closer as you get into the mid game.
it just leads to retarded scenarios where if you're a support and you're winning you get next to no gold/xp for a kill..but if you're losing heavily early on and you get 2 kills suddenly that's your blink dagger and a million xp.
well u could call it "artificial lead suppression" if u want i prefer "Artificial Skill Suppression" for acronym reasons. And because it sounds a lot less justifiable, because its not.
On April 15 2015 02:10 Sn0_Man wrote: comeback mechanics remain unjustifiable and fundamentally flawed and cannot be numerically tweaked to be both relevant and unharmful.
Unless, of course, you always want games that end up in highground defences being hte most important part of the game.
Honestly, most of the strong heroes (besides troll) only need some small tweaks. Jugg will be balanced iwth a 1.6 BAT. Sniper will be balanced with a CD on shrapnel (even if its short like 5-7 seconds), and so on.
its that or I think removing the vision it grants is probably good so that sniper can still have a way to escape an early gank
i think we need to stop calling it a "comeback" mechanic bc its apparent that it keeps leads down to a minimum early in order to keep the game closer as you get into the mid game.
it just leads to retarded scenarios where if you're a support and you're winning you get next to no gold/xp for a kill..but if you're losing heavily early on and you get 2 kills suddenly that's your blink dagger and a million xp.
Position 5 on the winning team is the saddest man in dota.
On April 15 2015 02:39 BluemoonSC wrote: its that or I think removing the vision it grants is probably good so that sniper can still have a way to escape an early gank
Removing the vision granting is like the opposite of how the hero should be nerfed, because the skill is the exact same when you're losing and defending high ground and only really weaker when you're winning and trying to push towers, lol.
i dont get what's wrong with the concept itself if you remove the comeback mechanic it's like saying that you should not be rewarded for killing a hero that has more exp and items than you or the enemy should not be punished for making a mistake in their gameplay
the problem is that the reward and the punishment are both far too high and I'm sure there's a decent way to balance this without removing the mechanic from the game
Its also busted because it doesn't take into account buybacks. So the most powerful weapon on the losing team is the ability to buy back just to get a kill when they are defending high ground.
On April 15 2015 02:43 andyrau wrote: i dont get what's wrong with the concept itself if you remove the comeback mechanic it's like saying that you should not be rewarded for killing a hero that has more exp and items than you or the enemy should not be punished for making a mistake in their gameplay
the problem is that the reward and the punishment are both far too high and I'm sure there's a decent way to balance this without removing the mechanic from the game
someone on reddit did the math before something something 4 full team wipes vs 5 in the previous patch something something
On April 15 2015 02:43 andyrau wrote: i dont get what's wrong with the concept itself if you remove the comeback mechanic it's like saying that you should not be rewarded for killing a hero that has more exp and items than you or the enemy should not be punished for making a mistake in their gameplay
the problem is that the reward and the punishment are both far too high and I'm sure there's a decent way to balance this without removing the mechanic from the game
You're already rewarded for killing a hero that has more XP and items than you, since the bounty is scaled by their level.
It's that the difference is scaled by team net worth/XP DIFFERENCE. So two heroes getting functionally the same kill (same hero levels/net worths involved) can get wildly different bounties based solely on whether their team is winning or losing.
There's also the fact that Icefrog nerfed the base bounty which makes winning team supports even more fucked.
On April 15 2015 02:10 Sn0_Man wrote: comeback mechanics remain unjustifiable and fundamentally flawed and cannot be numerically tweaked to be both relevant and unharmful.
Unless, of course, you always want games that end up in highground defences being hte most important part of the game.
Honestly, most of the strong heroes (besides troll) only need some small tweaks. Jugg will be balanced iwth a 1.6 BAT. Sniper will be balanced with a CD on shrapnel (even if its short like 5-7 seconds), and so on.
its that or I think removing the vision it grants is probably good so that sniper can still have a way to escape an early gank
i think we need to stop calling it a "comeback" mechanic bc its apparent that it keeps leads down to a minimum early in order to keep the game closer as you get into the mid game.
it just leads to retarded scenarios where if you're a support and you're winning you get next to no gold/xp for a kill..but if you're losing heavily early on and you get 2 kills suddenly that's your blink dagger and a million xp.
well u could call it "artificial lead suppression" if u want i prefer "Artificial Skill Suppression" for acronym reasons. And because it sounds a lot less justifiable, because its not.
hehehe I like the way you think.
like I get that people want to be able to recover from the laning phase, but I don't think it is fair or equitable for every hero. and in all honesty playing a support this patch is miserable. I used to support for my friends when we would stack and do lower level CEVO tournaments before this patch and I didn't mind..now its torture for me.
it unfortunately fosters a particular type of play that is unenjoyable to play with/against. when you're winning, you don't really feel like the other team deserved that win bc of one team fight that went south..but when you're losing you don't actually feel like you won. and if a game goes for 50-60 minutes when it should have been won in 20-30... shoot me.
e: wanna bring up my silencer game from yesterday. 4-0-2 at 13 minutes in...just hitting lvl 6. granted I was roaming and annoying mid and killing the top dual lane..but I don't think it's reasonable that it takes that long to hit lvl 6 after participating in 6 freaking kills.
On April 15 2015 02:39 BluemoonSC wrote: its that or I think removing the vision it grants is probably good so that sniper can still have a way to escape an early gank
Removing the vision granting is like the opposite of how the hero should be nerfed, because the skill is the exact same when you're losing and defending high ground and only really weaker when you're winning and trying to push towers, lol.
dunno..my only complaint with the skill was during the laning phase, personally, but we all know im not playing at the highest level of play. I also prefer to play heroes that are anti-sniper so there's that
They really do need to bring back assist and bounty gold for the winning team. And maybe maximum amount of gold/xp you can get from the comeback system to make fights more predictable when you have a big lead.
They just need to fix their damn game concepts. The advantage for winning a teamfight shouldn't be the gold earned from winning that teamfight, it should be the space you create from opening up the map thanks to the enemy team's deaths. The solution to being behind shouldn't be forcing fights, it should be clever use of the map so as to get more out of it than the enemy team does. The weakness of a lineup based around early fighting and midgame timings should be poor control of the map, not poor teamfights. Games should be decided more on a series of strategic decisions made throughout the course of the game rather than on a few split-second timings in teamfights that even the best players can mess up through no real fault of their own.
On April 15 2015 02:10 Sn0_Man wrote: comeback mechanics remain unjustifiable and fundamentally flawed and cannot be numerically tweaked to be both relevant and unharmful.
Unless, of course, you always want games that end up in highground defences being hte most important part of the game.
Honestly, most of the strong heroes (besides troll) only need some small tweaks. Jugg will be balanced iwth a 1.6 BAT. Sniper will be balanced with a CD on shrapnel (even if its short like 5-7 seconds), and so on.
its that or I think removing the vision it grants is probably good so that sniper can still have a way to escape an early gank
i think we need to stop calling it a "comeback" mechanic bc its apparent that it keeps leads down to a minimum early in order to keep the game closer as you get into the mid game.
it just leads to retarded scenarios where if you're a support and you're winning you get next to no gold/xp for a kill..but if you're losing heavily early on and you get 2 kills suddenly that's your blink dagger and a million xp.
Position 5 on the winning team is the saddest man in dota.
Bit comfused on this. Nothing worse than being a brown boots wand maiden because your team is getting slaughtered and every time you help in fights you just pop instantly.
On April 15 2015 02:10 Sn0_Man wrote: comeback mechanics remain unjustifiable and fundamentally flawed and cannot be numerically tweaked to be both relevant and unharmful.
Unless, of course, you always want games that end up in highground defences being hte most important part of the game.
Honestly, most of the strong heroes (besides troll) only need some small tweaks. Jugg will be balanced iwth a 1.6 BAT. Sniper will be balanced with a CD on shrapnel (even if its short like 5-7 seconds), and so on.
its that or I think removing the vision it grants is probably good so that sniper can still have a way to escape an early gank
i think we need to stop calling it a "comeback" mechanic bc its apparent that it keeps leads down to a minimum early in order to keep the game closer as you get into the mid game.
it just leads to retarded scenarios where if you're a support and you're winning you get next to no gold/xp for a kill..but if you're losing heavily early on and you get 2 kills suddenly that's your blink dagger and a million xp.
Position 5 on the winning team is the saddest man in dota.
Bit comfused on this. Nothing worse than being a brown boots wand maiden because your team is getting slaughtered and every time you help in fights you just pop instantly.
Because the bounty system was removed, the position 5 player on the winning team gets shit for every kill s/he helps with. This will never change as long as the team is ahead. Its one of the fucked up parts of the current system, because the position 5 support says weak and under farmed until the team looses their lead.
EPT
