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On January 30 2012 05:58 WaSa wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 05:54 gwaihir wrote:On January 30 2012 05:50 WaSa wrote:On January 30 2012 05:48 gwaihir wrote:On January 30 2012 05:46 WaSa wrote:
boring game but interesting in the end, the team with DS not winning xD
also Mjollnir DK = BOSS =D it was not boring....it was really exciting even if no kills happened....it was all about who made the first move/mistake and it was kinda interesting who would make it k, not everyone likes half an hour of no action, no kills + half arsed attempts  half arsed attempts? yeah sure they should have just went for it all the time and fail....watching players with such great skill, not overcommitting to pushes is also very exciting because it shows how good the read of them is on situations like that. dota is not only about BASH BASH BASH DIEEEEEEE you can try as much as you want but your opinion will never be a fact also there are games with the teams not over-commiting to pushes and that also "shows how good the read of them is on situations like that". Guess what? These games have more than 4 kills in half an hour
yeah sure a stalemate is always boring yeah bla bla bla....IF THERE ARE NO KILLS IT CANT BE INTENSE AND EXCITING....
jesus....some people dont get the depth of these kind of stalemates
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United States47024 Posts
On January 30 2012 06:06 gwaihir wrote:
yeah sure a stalemate is always boring yeah bla bla bla....IF THERE ARE NO KILLS IT CANT BE INTENSE AND EXCITING....
jesus....some people dont get the depth of these kind of stalemates
I would say that's not just "some people" but "the majority of the spectating audience".
The uninitiated spectator is looking for action. That much is obvious. You have to be fairly familiar with the game to understand the undercurrents during a lull in the action, and you can hardly fault someone for that.
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On January 30 2012 06:06 gwaihir wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 05:58 WaSa wrote:On January 30 2012 05:54 gwaihir wrote:On January 30 2012 05:50 WaSa wrote:On January 30 2012 05:48 gwaihir wrote:On January 30 2012 05:46 WaSa wrote:
boring game but interesting in the end, the team with DS not winning xD
also Mjollnir DK = BOSS =D it was not boring....it was really exciting even if no kills happened....it was all about who made the first move/mistake and it was kinda interesting who would make it k, not everyone likes half an hour of no action, no kills + half arsed attempts half arsed attempts? yeah sure they should have just went for it all the time and fail....watching players with such great skill, not overcommitting to pushes is also very exciting because it shows how good the read of them is on situations like that. dota is not only about BASH BASH BASH DIEEEEEEE you can try as much as you want but your opinion will never be a fact also there are games with the teams not over-commiting to pushes and that also "shows how good the read of them is on situations like that". Guess what? These games have more than 4 kills in half an hour yeah sure a stalemate is always boring yeah bla bla bla....IF THERE ARE NO KILLS IT CANT BE INTENSE AND EXCITING.... jesus....some people dont get the depth of these kind of stalemates
And once again you're putting words in my mouth. I've seen lots of stalemates and I usually like them if they going on max 10 mins, especially lategame. But not stalemeates going on for half an hour already starting in the early game.
Might be exciting for you but not for me. Problem?
The depth of these stalemates...lol isn't pretty self-explanatory...
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Can't decide who to root for this game is so intense I'm leaning Fire, but I'm watching Grubby vs Stephano simultaneously at the same time!
OHHHHH Triple Kill by that Faceless Void. High level play! ♥ Void is dominating this game 3.
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aL vs Fire game 3 is pure gold.
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Very well deserved win by Fire. Probably the top team right now...
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Oh man, my friends are playing a game with Hot_bid and R1ch right now. So jealous...
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Fire is amazing, good stuff
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Grats to Fire, these guys are really on the ball playing amazing. It is a pleasure to watch them play.
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FREEAGLELAND26780 Posts
On January 30 2012 06:21 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 06:06 gwaihir wrote:
yeah sure a stalemate is always boring yeah bla bla bla....IF THERE ARE NO KILLS IT CANT BE INTENSE AND EXCITING....
jesus....some people dont get the depth of these kind of stalemates I would say that's not just "some people" but "the majority of the spectating audience". The uninitiated spectator is looking for action. That much is obvious. You have to be fairly familiar with the game to understand the undercurrents during a lull in the action, and you can hardly fault someone for that.
I'd rather watch Chinese games with few kills. People get items. It's impressive how they position themselves (also the warding spots are awesome) and studying when and when not to engage is really enlightening. European games are fun for when I just want to see stuff die, but yerrow blood.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
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FREEAGLELAND26780 Posts
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United States47024 Posts
On January 30 2012 10:07 flamewheel wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 06:21 TheYango wrote:On January 30 2012 06:06 gwaihir wrote:
yeah sure a stalemate is always boring yeah bla bla bla....IF THERE ARE NO KILLS IT CANT BE INTENSE AND EXCITING....
jesus....some people dont get the depth of these kind of stalemates I would say that's not just "some people" but "the majority of the spectating audience". The uninitiated spectator is looking for action. That much is obvious. You have to be fairly familiar with the game to understand the undercurrents during a lull in the action, and you can hardly fault someone for that. I'd rather watch Chinese games with few kills. People get items. It's impressive how they position themselves (also the warding spots are awesome) and studying when and when not to engage is really enlightening. European games are fun for when I just want to see stuff die, but yerrow blood.
Personally, I feel the same way, but I think it's a good thing for the community to be able to support newer, uninformed viewers.
It's something both DotA, and the genre in general, has been historically bad at.
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Does anyone know of a good comparison between PMS and vanguard? I have a hard time deciding between them a lot of the time on carries. (as in, when to get one vs when the other, and when PMS stops being useful vs when vanguard s tops being useful)
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FREEAGLELAND26780 Posts
On January 30 2012 11:06 Nevuk wrote:
Does anyone know of a good comparison between PMS and vanguard? I have a hard time deciding between them a lot of the time on carries. (as in, when to get one vs when the other, and when PMS stops being useful vs when vanguard s tops being useful)
+ Show Spoiler [I typed all this up and then realized…] +I can't give you something concise and comprehensive, but I'm in the mood to type a bit (and hopefully through typing, I'll learn something).
I'll stick to talking about farming Agility heroes (since otherwise I don't see too much point in getting PMS).
Rarely do I see ranged Agility heroes with PMS. The damage block is pretty insignificant and the majority of the time you shouldn't be the one getting physically harassed--I'm looking at heroes like Sniper, Shadow Fiend, Viper, and Mirana. Of course, you don't often see Vanguard on these heroes either (with the exception of Viper).
You do end up seeing Vanguard on ranged Agility heroes such as Weaver, Viper, Razor, and Venomancer. For the first three, the build-up in the laning phase is nice. As ranged heroes (425, 475, 575/600) they will be subject to less harass than melee heroes, and after the RoH finishing Vanguard is pretty good. Weaver, Viper, and Razor all require some sort of survivability, and the direct tankiness (HP boost is the main part, damage block of 20 is a bit less significant) provided through Vanguard is nice. All three will end up being in the middle of a fight in one way or another (Weaver a bit less than Viper and Razor, but still needs that survivability just in case) and get stronger as a fight drags on (Nethertoxin, Static Cling, Eye of the Storm, The Swarm) so the more HP they have, the longer they can stay around. For Venomancer, basically Vanguard allows him to spam more poison.
Sometimes though I argue that the Vitality Booster is enough to save for a lategame heart. As carries, Weaver, Viper, and Razor should reach that stage without too much trouble (though that's based on game specificity) but Venomancer won't reach that stage. Ranged Vanguard is for the set +6 regeneration and +250 HP boost, so it loses effectiveness than melee Vanguard.
The real question comes down to melee Agility heroes. Anti-Mage, Juggernaut, Stealth Assassin, Void, Bloodseeker, Spectre, and Broodmother are currently in the pool. Of these, of course you can get either Vanguard or PMS. If you're in lane and you're facing heroes that will be harassing you physically in the early levels PMS is great. It's a lot cheaper and it improves your stayability (making up words left and right now!) in lane by quite a bit.Of course, -20 damage later on is less effective as a damage block than -28 average on Vanguard, though again on Vanguard you get the +250 HP.
Bloodseeker always wants a PMS. With that you can just stick around and not care at all.
As Riki you want to maximize your Agility (1.25x backstab is ridiculous) and before you hit level 6 people use the opportunity to wail on you. PMS.
Juggernaut you can get either on. Vanguard obviously maintains its usefulness for longer but it's expensive--Juggernaut doesn't absolutely need the survivability granted by Vanguard since he has magic immunity through spin. PMS is fine.
On Anti-Mage you can either go PMS -> RoH -> Battle Fury or Vanguard -> Manta (or even Vanguard -> Battle Fury but I don't see that as much). PMS if you're facing people that don't have a stun that's also a nuke (since you can blink away if they try to finish you off when you're low) and rely on physical damage (Windrunner, Furion, etc.). Vanguard against powerful nukers and chain stunners.
Spectre Vanguard almost always. I see PMS + Vanguard sometimes, but the damage block doesn't stack. Tanky Spectre rips through fragile supports like none other.
Void doesn't need either, though PMS + maxed backtrack improves his EHP by a ridiculous amount. Void has enough survivability through Walk, Chrono, and Backtrack--you just need AS and damage. PMS over Vanguard.
Broodmother really needs neither. Unless you're seriously getting hounded by sentry-buying teams, there's no need for either. Just get that BKB (or Orchid) and lifesteal everything back unimpeded.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 30 2012 11:06 Nevuk wrote:
Does anyone know of a good comparison between PMS and vanguard? I have a hard time deciding between them a lot of the time on carries. (as in, when to get one vs when the other, and when PMS stops being useful vs when vanguard s tops being useful)
Poor Man's Shield upgrade only upgrades the damage block to 20 damage block per attack. Vanguard upgrades to 70% of 40 block, which is effectively 28 block per attack, as well as giving +1 HP regen.
So in terms of pure cost-effectiveness, Vanguard is ALWAYS better than PMS + Vit Booster + RoH. When is PMS a better item to buy? Simply, when the stats on Vanguard aren't as good for you as their pure gold value indicates. Health is pretty much always nice to have (though there are a few heroes that don't want to spend 1100 gold on HP that early), so the deal-breaker is pretty much always going to be "do I want to spend 875 gold on HP regen?" The answer is often going to be no, when you're already buying another source of HP regen (e.g. Battlefury) or you simply don't need HP regen as a stat anymore (HP is primarily useful in laning and pushing scenarios, and less useful in teamfighting scenarios).
On January 30 2012 11:38 flamewheel wrote:
As Riki you want to maximize your Agility (1.25x backstab is ridiculous) and before you hit level 6 people use the opportunity to wail on you. PMS.
I don't think it's that clear-cut on Riki. If you can actually manage to save 875 gold, an RoH does way more than PMS damage block ever will as far as keeping you alive in lane, and at the point where you have Stout+RoH, I think finishing Vanguard is better than having PMS+RoH. Certainly if you're getting suppressed to the point that you can't easily even farm 875, then I might consider PMS, but at that point I might even go as far as buying 1-2 RoRs for sustain and turning them into Hood later.
Riki also has high base armor, but low base HP, which means that you will want some form of buffer vs. magic damage, in the form of either plain HP (Vanguard) or magic resistance (Hood).
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Does armor go into effect before or after the block negation? Was wondering if pms +1 armor has an effect if taken into consideration
edit : not 1 armor technically, 6/7 of a point. Did they change that or has it always been 7 points of agi for 1 point armor?
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FREEAGLELAND26780 Posts
On January 30 2012 12:15 Nevuk wrote:
Does armor go into effect before or after the block negation? Was wondering if pms +1 armor has an effect if taken into consideration
edit : not 1 armor technically, 6/7 of a point. Did they change that or has it always been 7 points of agi for 1 point armor?
Damage block comes before everything else.
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On January 30 2012 14:22 flamewheel wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 12:15 Nevuk wrote:
Does armor go into effect before or after the block negation? Was wondering if pms +1 armor has an effect if taken into consideration
edit : not 1 armor technically, 6/7 of a point. Did they change that or has it always been 7 points of agi for 1 point armor? Damage block comes before everything else.
Thanks. From the sounds of it, at a certain MASSIVE hp the 6/7 of a point of armor would be greater than the ~8 dmg block from the vanguard and 250 hp. But that's incredibly unrealistic. (I think it would be somewhere in the millions or billions lol
I think the real reason I have a debate is that PMS feels like it has less of a luck factor than a vanguard. 70% is a high chance, but it's not 100%. Especially in the early game a guaranteed -20 damage feels very nice, especially on heroes who rely on some luck anyways (IE void, riki with cloud).
I've been experimenting around with spectre builds since I just... random her a lot. I've been going PMS, roh, phase boots, hood, diffusal. The key thing for me is that all of the parts are fairly small and cheap so ganks don't really hurt that much. Adding vit booster seems like it would slow down my diffusal, but it is kind of lineup dependent for me too. I don't do that vs all physical teams, but magic damage and chasing heroes are very popular in pubs. (These are solo queue pubs where I random typically, so farming for straight radiance is kind of iffy).
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EPT
