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United States47024 Posts
On July 30 2014 08:53 idonthinksobro wrote:
because i dislike the idea to have an item that i use maybe once in 5 minutes after i buy it because iam slardar or centaur and my mana pool is just enough so i can blink + stun. I just think that there are too many heros that buy it because they don't know what else to get and blink is never bad. In pro games there are now on average ~3 blink daggers each game, it used to be closer to ~1. (from memory, i think source is a datdota article)
I think those Blink dependent gankers/initiators are much more damaged by a cost increase than those that are buying it because it's "never bad". The overall tempo of those heroes is very dependent on how their first few Blink ganks/fights pan out and delaying it by 650 gold is huge for those heroes. The heroes that are buying it simply because it's good are less likely to need a specific timing and will make back the cost on the free mobility regardless.
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The only way to balance blink is to remove it from CM duh.
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or just give it to all the heroes for free
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or they should just give a hero or two the blink ability
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On July 30 2014 08:53 idonthinksobro wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 08:45 TheYango wrote:On July 30 2014 08:36 idonthinksobro wrote:On July 30 2014 08:29 Gosi wrote:On July 30 2014 08:27 idonthinksobro wrote:On July 30 2014 08:24 Torte de Lini wrote:
Remove Blink Dagger too just make it expensive enough that it is hard to rush for supports, maybe 2800 gold or something. alright i quit dota no you won't, nobody ever quits dota. Blink dagger will get nerfed one way or another i much rather have a 0 mana dagger that is more expensive than a dagger that costs mana to use. Why? Dagger costing no mana essentially means there's no downside to using it as a general map mobility item item because it doesn't cost anything to use it on CD to get places faster. I'm not sure I like that function of the item and I think having that ability to move around the map like that be generally available to so many heroes isn't necessarily good for the game as a whole. The primary function of the item is as an engagement item to enter fights. I don't see why it needs to basically be given the secondary map mobility function for free. While I understand the intent of opening up it's usability by heroes that need one but don't have the baseline mana to support it easily if it cost mana, I think there's a balance that can be achieved with a non-zero mana cost that doesn't become overly prohibitive for those heroes while still making people think for a second before using it on CD to zip around the map. because i dislike the idea to have an item that i use maybe once in 5 minutes after i buy it because iam slardar or centaur and my mana pool is just enough so i can blink + stun. I just think that there are too many heros that buy it because they don't know what else to get and blink is never bad. In pro games there are now on average ~3 blink daggers each game, it used to be closer to ~1. (from memory, i think source is a datdota article)
From what I've seen in recent pro games (aka TI4), it is 4 or 5 Blink daggers per game. This is the main reason I dislike the last change to it, now it is a good and desirable item on most heroes and in most games. Blink on every hero in every game is really lame and boring, even though I like the item by itself and enjoyed seeing it before the change.
I really hope they will reintroduce the manacost, something like 45 or 50 mana should be a good compromise.
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On July 30 2014 09:07 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 08:53 idonthinksobro wrote:
because i dislike the idea to have an item that i use maybe once in 5 minutes after i buy it because iam slardar or centaur and my mana pool is just enough so i can blink + stun. I just think that there are too many heros that buy it because they don't know what else to get and blink is never bad. In pro games there are now on average ~3 blink daggers each game, it used to be closer to ~1. (from memory, i think source is a datdota article)
I think those Blink dependent gankers/initiators are much more damaged by a cost increase than those that are buying it because it's "never bad". The overall tempo of those heroes is very dependent on how their first few Blink ganks/fights pan out and delaying it by 650 gold is huge for those heroes. The heroes that are buying it simply because it's good are less likely to need a specific timing and will make back the cost on the free mobility regardless.
But having the mana cost on the item results in the same problem. Most of the heroes that really need it have a low mana pool and are affected by the nerf more than those that buy it because it's "never bad".
I guess they can bring the mana back if heroes like slardar/cent/sk/es get a mana buff either by reducing the costs of their spells or increasing their int gain (increasing base mana leads to another problem of level 1 slardar or cent getting 2 stuns instead of 1)
On July 30 2014 09:14 MyrMindservant wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 08:53 idonthinksobro wrote:On July 30 2014 08:45 TheYango wrote:On July 30 2014 08:36 idonthinksobro wrote:On July 30 2014 08:29 Gosi wrote:On July 30 2014 08:27 idonthinksobro wrote:On July 30 2014 08:24 Torte de Lini wrote:
Remove Blink Dagger too just make it expensive enough that it is hard to rush for supports, maybe 2800 gold or something. alright i quit dota no you won't, nobody ever quits dota. Blink dagger will get nerfed one way or another i much rather have a 0 mana dagger that is more expensive than a dagger that costs mana to use. Why? Dagger costing no mana essentially means there's no downside to using it as a general map mobility item item because it doesn't cost anything to use it on CD to get places faster. I'm not sure I like that function of the item and I think having that ability to move around the map like that be generally available to so many heroes isn't necessarily good for the game as a whole. The primary function of the item is as an engagement item to enter fights. I don't see why it needs to basically be given the secondary map mobility function for free. While I understand the intent of opening up it's usability by heroes that need one but don't have the baseline mana to support it easily if it cost mana, I think there's a balance that can be achieved with a non-zero mana cost that doesn't become overly prohibitive for those heroes while still making people think for a second before using it on CD to zip around the map. because i dislike the idea to have an item that i use maybe once in 5 minutes after i buy it because iam slardar or centaur and my mana pool is just enough so i can blink + stun. I just think that there are too many heros that buy it because they don't know what else to get and blink is never bad. In pro games there are now on average ~3 blink daggers each game, it used to be closer to ~1. (from memory, i think source is a datdota article) From what I've seen in recent pro games (aka TI4), it is 4 or 5 Blink daggers per game. This is the main reason I dislike the last change to it, now it is a good and desirable item on most heroes and in most games. Blink on every hero in every game is really lame and boring, even though I like the item by itself and enjoyed seeing it used before the change. I really hope they will reintroduce the manacost, something like 45 or 50 mana should be a good compromise.
Ok, lets assume they change it to 50. Is 50 mana really stopping heroes like invoker or shadow shamans from zipping around the map now that they got used to the ability?
History repeats itself. It's not the first time something gets a buff, gets played a lot more, gets nerfed to same or worse status and keeps being used because people got the initial push to try it and figure out how to use it.
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I wouldn't mind the mana cost back or some other form of cost for using the item. Even if it was 25 mana, it would prevent everyone form skipping around the map. I do think that Blink dagger dota is leading to kinda boring drafts and some heroes being less awesome.
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you people crazy,blink change was the best thing that happened to dota since alchemist nerfs
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I don't know, I sort of liked my heroes have to walk at each other, rather than just blink across the river and press all their buttons. Its not like the team fights last year were boring. They were easier to follow too.
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United States47024 Posts
On July 30 2014 09:15 misirlou wrote:
Ok, lets assume they change it to 50. Is 50 mana really stopping heroes like invoker or shadow shamans from zipping around the map now that they got used to the ability?
History repeats itself. It's not the first time something gets a buff, gets played a lot more, gets nerfed to same or worse status and keeps being used because people got the initial push to try it and figure out how to use it.
Rhasta's a really shitty example because his mana costs are so high that yes, mana cost on Blink would actually stop him from using it so haphazardly unless we're talking about a farmed Rhasta that also got to farm a major mana item with his Blink Dagger. A support Rhasta with just Arcanes+Blink would not be able to just use Blink on CD for mobility and expect to have enough mana leftover to do what he wants. A level 11 Arcanes + Blink Rhasta has ~1k mana, and using Blink + all his spells once costs just short of 900.
Blink Invoker was already a thing before the Blink Dagger change.
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How about this: in competitive matches, each team can only have a maximum of 2 (or 3) Blink Daggers.
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On July 30 2014 09:17 Plansix wrote:
I wouldn't mind the mana cost back or some other form of cost for using the item. Even if it was 25 mana, it would prevent everyone form skipping around the map. I do think that Blink dagger dota is leading to kinda boring drafts and some heroes being less awesome.
I disagree. I'm not sure on the numbers but i'm almost certain AM's blink (and QoP) cost more mana and he uses it to zip around the map, he's also an agi hero.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On July 30 2014 09:12 Kupon3ss wrote:
or just give it to all the heroes for free
fuck, thats an insanely good idea, just remove the item and give it on like a 200s cd so it only gets used for initiations!
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if you really wanted to nerf blink in order to give it that intiation only property instead of a mobility thing just add a debuff after you blink that slows you or something for a 1,2,3 secs w/e.
blink sickness etc
that would also make move speed items more attractive as far as mobility goes
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On July 30 2014 09:26 misirlou wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 09:17 Plansix wrote:
I wouldn't mind the mana cost back or some other form of cost for using the item. Even if it was 25 mana, it would prevent everyone form skipping around the map. I do think that Blink dagger dota is leading to kinda boring drafts and some heroes being less awesome. I disagree. I'm not sure on the numbers but i'm almost certain AM's blink (and QoP) cost more mana and he uses it to zip around the map, he's also an agi hero.
Anti mage is a really bad example due to tread switching and battle fury being a core item for him. Those allow him to zip around the map without a case. QoP is an int hero and always has a reasonably robust mana pool and regeneration rate.
But heroes like Sand King, Doom, slark and earth Shaker all care about mana and 25 mana is alot for them.
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On July 30 2014 09:26 misirlou wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 09:17 Plansix wrote:
I wouldn't mind the mana cost back or some other form of cost for using the item. Even if it was 25 mana, it would prevent everyone form skipping around the map. I do think that Blink dagger dota is leading to kinda boring drafts and some heroes being less awesome. I disagree. I'm not sure on the numbers but i'm almost certain AM's blink (and QoP) cost more mana and he uses it to zip around the map, he's also an agi hero.
Magina usually does that after he gets a battlefury though. I wouldn't mind a nerf to blink, not sure about mana cost, but mb CD could use a tweak. I find it to be an initiation tool, not a mobility enhancer.
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United States47024 Posts
On July 30 2014 09:28 Ru ba wrote:
if you really wanted to nerf blink in order to give it that intiation only property instead of a mobility thing just add a debuff after you blink that slows you or something for a 1,2,3 secs w/e.
blink sickness etc
that would also make move speed items more attractive as far as mobility goes
Batrider is now no longer a hero.
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On July 30 2014 09:29 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 09:28 Ru ba wrote:
if you really wanted to nerf blink in order to give it that intiation only property instead of a mobility thing just add a debuff after you blink that slows you or something for a 1,2,3 secs w/e.
blink sickness etc
that would also make move speed items more attractive as far as mobility goes Batrider is now no longer a hero.
of course he is,frocestaff more mom builds etc
you just buff something in the early game to compensate for the item build up if its a huge problem
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I think they could get away with giving blink mana cost (75 or even 100), make the item give 150 mana and cost +600 more.
I also think blink has too much range. Force staff, an item that requires a bit more skill to use has half the range and costs mana. I think that a range nerf on blink is warranted, people get away with playing too much in the backlines and engaging. Heroes which rely on a blink to initiate can afford to stand 200/300 units less away from the front
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On July 30 2014 09:30 misirlou wrote:
I think they could get away with giving blink mana cost (75 or even 100), make the item give 150 mana and cost +600 more
no they couldnt because that would ruin every hero that actually needs it...
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EPT
