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On May 02 2012 07:24 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 07:14 Erasme wrote:On May 02 2012 07:13 Itsmedudeman wrote:
dagon5 is like one of the most cost inefficient items in the game. 400 dmg for 5k gold and some stats? dagon 5 is 800damage so 600damage pure i think. if it's 25% magic red and not 30% like in wc3. ? That's why I said 5k gold and not 8k gold which is if you're including dagon 1 which I'm not. Dagon 1 is pretty good in terms of cost efficiency, but if you want less than what dagon 1 gave you to upgrade to dagon 5 you'll have to fork up 5.3k more gold.
dagon 1 isnt 5k g, it's 1000 + 500+ 1250 then 1250 per level.
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On May 02 2012 07:37 Erasme wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 07:24 Itsmedudeman wrote:On May 02 2012 07:14 Erasme wrote:On May 02 2012 07:13 Itsmedudeman wrote:
dagon5 is like one of the most cost inefficient items in the game. 400 dmg for 5k gold and some stats? dagon 5 is 800damage so 600damage pure i think. if it's 25% magic red and not 30% like in wc3. ? That's why I said 5k gold and not 8k gold which is if you're including dagon 1 which I'm not. Dagon 1 is pretty good in terms of cost efficiency, but if you want less than what dagon 1 gave you to upgrade to dagon 5 you'll have to fork up 5.3k more gold. dagon 1 isnt 5k g, it's 1000 + 500+ 1250 then 1250 per level.
He's saying (in a very convoluted way) the marginal cost is 5k, which is correct. However, it's not just for the 400 dmg, but also for the huge cooldown reduction. You get to use it several times in a fight if you get dagon 5, whereas dagon 1 is once and done.
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Lalalaland34507 Posts
There are so many better items than dagon/eblade on a late game Tinker, completely ignoring the fact that you'll be saving for buybacks.
You have 6 slots:
Staples
- BoTs
- Shivas
- Guinsoo
After this you should get either Linkens/BKB, taking up another slot. There are 2 slots left. I personally prefer manta as a pushing item. Alternatives are force staff/blink or orchids. Where on earth do you have the space for dagon 5 or eblade?
Dagon 5 is very much a pure pubstomp item when you're just fucking around.
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Lol several times in a fight is a huge exaggeration. With a 24 second cooldown you'd be lucky to get in one more in that duration assuming you used it immediately as the fight started. Also, again, doesn't matter on tinker, dagon 5 is probably much worse on other heroes (like prophet lol) in which you could've had a sheepstick on top of a dagon 1.
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On May 02 2012 07:51 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Lol several times in a fight is a huge exaggeration. With a 24 second cooldown you'd be lucky to get in one more in that duration assuming you used it immediately as the fight started. Also, again, doesn't matter on tinker, dagon 5 is probably much worse on other heroes (like prophet lol) in which you could've had a sheepstick on top of a dagon 1.
With items like dagon and necrobook you're basically using the base item to farm the upgrades. And even if you only use a dagon 5 twice in a fight instead of once, that's 4 times more damage you're outputting with your item. Anyhow, dagon is mostly a pubstomp item anyway, and in that case it certainly is worth it to upgrade simply because in pub games you want to be able to dispatch enemies quickly by yourself.
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If I were pubstomping and wanted to farm kills why not go for something like a blink or a sheepstick with dagon 1 over a dagon 5?? It's not even efficient in pubstomps over other items. I've seen people throw many games because they wanted to rush dagon 5 and it proved to be useless because they have no stats or anything else to support it.
In the specific case of tinker it'd be a lot easier to get kills with a sheepstick dagon 1 over a dagon 5 alone. You've got more mana and a cc so you can get in a rearm to nuke them down again instead of relying on 1 set of cds to 100 - 0 them which you'd only be able to do if you're incredibly far ahead or you're just aiming at their supports only.
MAYBE if your entire team is ahead in the beginning and there's no possible way to lose then it becomes a good item.
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United States47024 Posts
I dunno why you'd be buying Dagon late when it's biggest redeeming quality is it's smooth buildup.
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On May 02 2012 07:26 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 07:22 Dead9 wrote:
the manacost/cd drop and the cast range goes up a decent amount
it's certainly inefficient numbers-wise but you have to remember that there's nothing else you can buy as a replacement, and the buildup is pretty nice since it comes in fully functional parts "nothing else to buy" umm, this only happens once in a blue moon. What does cd matter on tinker anyway? In any case, there's a TON of things I'd rather get for 5k gold than upgrading to dagon 5. Hell, even ethereal blade would give you more. And if you do happen to have 600 gpm and 60 minute game then your priority should be in buybacks at 6 items, not 400 extra damage 60 minutes into the game.
er thats probably bad wording but what i mean is upgrading dagon is more useful for it's purpose than buying any other item
like if ur already buying dagon 1 ur probably better off buying dagon 5 than any other item
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On May 01 2012 23:10 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 17:24 hunts wrote:On May 01 2012 12:28 Comeh wrote:
In pubs i can see the viability of E Blade, but I think in more organized games I'm not sure it really enables you to carry as effectively as other items could.
Just my opinion (i'm a big fan of Linkins + Skadi + Daedalus, but you are talking about 50 minute wins then :/) I think that's why you have to couple the eblade with manta or bkb, so once you do your combo you can manta/bkb out of the banish. I understand the concept, but having such burst damage (a nuke, essentially), kind of goes against being a carry - you have 2 / 2.5 attacks to kill one hero (a lower hp one) and then you can't really do anything until your cooldowns are gone. You don't have the same sort of damage items that the opposing team's carry will have, which makes me think that against a carry that is equally farmed, you will lose out. That being said, I just don't have much experience with EB morph, but that's my feeling on the matter.
Morph builds his dps potential by stacking str/agi stat anyways which EB isn't exactly lacking in.
A typical engagment would look like:
- instagib high value target, riding in on waveform
- manta split/BKB shred squishies and backline supports with max agi DPS
- morph str according to how much focus you draw
- waveform out or to chase
On May 02 2012 06:30 LAN-f34r wrote:
eth blade is pretty ok on shadow fiend.
I'd say it's almost required, when you're going up against bullshit right-clickers like spirit breaker, ursa, huskar, riki, etc. in pubs.
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EBlade on SF is a terrible idea.
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United States47024 Posts
On May 02 2012 08:35 TheWarbler wrote:
EBlade on SF is a FUN idea.
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On May 02 2012 08:06 hideo wrote:I'd say it's almost required, when you're going up against bullshit right-clickers like spirit breaker, ursa, huskar, riki, etc. in pubs.
i think hitting someone with raze is a little harder when they're running at you. or in riki's case, behind you. even if you ghost them for your ulti you might as well just get a bkb. it's cheaper and you most likely won't get stunned by anyone/take a million damage from a nuke.
and besides bkb, other items are much more useful and easier to use on sf imo
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On May 02 2012 08:45 Comogury wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 08:06 hideo wrote:On May 02 2012 06:30 LAN-f34r wrote:
eth blade is pretty ok on shadow fiend. I'd say it's almost required, when you're going up against bullshit right-clickers like spirit breaker, ursa, huskar, riki, etc. in pubs. i think hitting someone with raze is a little harder when they're running at you. or in riki's case, behind you. even if you ghost them for your ulti you might as well just get a bkb. it's cheaper and you most likely won't get stunned by anyone/take a million damage from a nuke. and besides bkb, other items are much more useful and easier to use on sf imo
I never considered it but ethereal isn't bad at all. If they don't have many nukes and u face the right-clickers he listed, bkb isn't gonna help against those heroes like ursa, lycan and even sb. You will just die to the right click in bkb. With ethereal you not only deal extra damage but u disable the right clicker as well, so they cant focus anyone else on ur team.
On a sidenote, thoughts about Darer roster change? Personally gonna have to agree with NS and Dread, Artstyle is a good and innovative captain but he plays carelessly at times, diving a bit too far for example which you can't do as a hard carry.
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is diffisual a good item vs sylla as range agi carry? i was playing mirana and i didnt know what to buy ~_~
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On May 02 2012 09:26 NB wrote:
is diffisual a good item vs sylla as range agi carry? i was playing mirana and i didnt know what to buy ~_~
It could help to purge rabbid and the ult roar bit i'm not sure if it's worth buying the item for that.
The best is still to focus fire Sylla heavily. Or shut him down early before he has his Radiance.
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On May 02 2012 09:18 The Great Taste wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 08:45 Comogury wrote:On May 02 2012 08:06 hideo wrote:On May 02 2012 06:30 LAN-f34r wrote:
eth blade is pretty ok on shadow fiend. I'd say it's almost required, when you're going up against bullshit right-clickers like spirit breaker, ursa, huskar, riki, etc. in pubs. i think hitting someone with raze is a little harder when they're running at you. or in riki's case, behind you. even if you ghost them for your ulti you might as well just get a bkb. it's cheaper and you most likely won't get stunned by anyone/take a million damage from a nuke. and besides bkb, other items are much more useful and easier to use on sf imo I never considered it but ethereal isn't bad at all. If they don't have many nukes and u face the right-clickers he listed, bkb isn't gonna help against those heroes like ursa, lycan and even sb. You will just die to the right click in bkb. With ethereal you not only deal extra damage but u disable the right clicker as well, so they cant focus anyone else on ur team. On a sidenote, thoughts about Darer roster change? Personally gonna have to agree with NS and Dread, Artstyle is a good and innovative captain but he plays carelessly at times, diving a bit too far for example which you can't do as a hard carry.
where'd you hear about the roster change from?
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well thats not gona happen if im not the solo mid -_- how is the purge dmg on the bear though?
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On May 02 2012 10:07 danielimotbh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 09:18 The Great Taste wrote:On May 02 2012 08:45 Comogury wrote:On May 02 2012 08:06 hideo wrote:On May 02 2012 06:30 LAN-f34r wrote:
eth blade is pretty ok on shadow fiend. I'd say it's almost required, when you're going up against bullshit right-clickers like spirit breaker, ursa, huskar, riki, etc. in pubs. i think hitting someone with raze is a little harder when they're running at you. or in riki's case, behind you. even if you ghost them for your ulti you might as well just get a bkb. it's cheaper and you most likely won't get stunned by anyone/take a million damage from a nuke. and besides bkb, other items are much more useful and easier to use on sf imo I never considered it but ethereal isn't bad at all. If they don't have many nukes and u face the right-clickers he listed, bkb isn't gonna help against those heroes like ursa, lycan and even sb. You will just die to the right click in bkb. With ethereal you not only deal extra damage but u disable the right clicker as well, so they cant focus anyone else on ur team. On a sidenote, thoughts about Darer roster change? Personally gonna have to agree with NS and Dread, Artstyle is a good and innovative captain but he plays carelessly at times, diving a bit too far for example which you can't do as a hard carry. where'd you hear about the roster change from?
Rumors now abound that Dread and NS will join Virtus.Pro along with KuroKy and Azen
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if kuroky is playing for darer mouz is seriously fucked since they wont be able to find the +1 to meet TI2 deadline... I strongly doubt darer will change their line up at this moment either.
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I think I have a new favourite hero.
Damn, why did I give up on Storm Spirit before? He's amazingly fun.
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EPT
