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On April 19 2012 17:14 SirMilford wrote:
How exactly are you meant to build brewmaster?
The standard core would be something to the effect of phase, bottle, blink, jango, and aghs for luxury
keep in mind a few points
the standard procedure is to blink -> clap -> ult in a teamfight, for which drum is quite suited because the aura is provided while in ulti while nothing asides from aghs improves the combat capabilities of the ult.
once the ult ends u'll likely be in cleanup phase (u've won the fight), or runaway phase (u've lost the fight), and drums is pretty useful in both cases.
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I just got access to the game today.
I've been waiting for ~5-6 months to get it lol.
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On April 19 2012 19:13 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 19:06 Tryhat wrote:
I never understood why people suggest drums instead of vanguard. They're nothing alike. Items that are better and cheaper than drums for survivability: Ogre club, PMS (likely), Vitality Booster, any Armor+Magic Res combo. Then there are things like Ultimate Orb, Sange, Heaven's Halberd, etc. Also, if you a buy a vit booster or ogre club or something like that you can upgrade it into an actual late game item, instead of just wasting a slot like you are with drums.
Okay if you like drums, but I don't understand how it in any way is a vanguard replacement. I've seen it suggested on ranged heroes instead of vanguard as well. Can someone explain? You don't buy Drums for just generic survivability. You buy Drum's for early teamfighting power. Which is what many of those heroes want, and what many people bough pre-nerf Vanguard for (e.g. back when ranged Vanguard was still absurd). Janggo doesn't replace the exact functionality, but it fills the implicit purpose that many people often are accustomed to getting Vanguard for. The only other item in the game that gives a comparable mix of both self fighting stats AND team benefit at that stage of the game is Mekansm, and Mek is both mana-intensive to use, and is worthless in multiples. In the case of Panda, you're not interested in a straight survivability item--so long as your ultimate is up, surviving a fight isn't your problem. What you want is a teamfighting item that advances your up-front fighting power, both inside your Ultimate and out, and that's what Janggo accomplishes. If you want straight survivability items, you should obviously buy straight survivability items. Janggo gives one of the most well-rounded mix of self- and team- teamfighting stats for it's cost. Most of the ranged heroes that you see people suggest it on are semicarries that want that kind of teamfighting power at that stage of the game.
So you wouldn't recommend it if you're playing a hardcarry style then I presume. What about on Viper, QoP or someone like Razor? Vanguard still viable? Are drums (if you play them like the team's carry)?
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Lalalaland34505 Posts
On April 19 2012 19:27 freelander wrote:
I just got access to the game today.
I've been waiting for ~5-6 months to get it lol.
Congratulations 
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Lalalaland34505 Posts
Something I've not figured out yet but is important. If someone else leaves the game/dc's and it says 'this game is now safe to leave', does it add a win/loss to your record after that? I just had a game where one of the opponents dc'd at the very beginning, and 2 other teammates and 1 of mine left, leaving it as our 4 against their 2. I wanted to leave because it was a stupid game at that point but didn't want to risk getting a loss on my record for it.
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yes you get a win/loss based on whoever's throne dies after a leaver
i think if you disconnect you get a loss regardless of what happens, and a disconnect if you were the first to leave
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On April 19 2012 20:08 Firebolt145 wrote:
Something I've not figured out yet but is important. If someone else leaves the game/dc's and it says 'this game is now safe to leave', does it add a win/loss to your record after that? I just had a game where one of the opponents dc'd at the very beginning, and 2 other teammates and 1 of mine left, leaving it as our 4 against their 2. I wanted to leave because it was a stupid game at that point but didn't want to risk getting a loss on my record for it.
Since we talked about it last I've been very observant of what actually happens when someone disconnects. So far I've experienced this (100% sure):
* Opponent disconnects but my team still loses. Loss.
* Opponent disconnects but my team wins. No win.
* Teammate disconnects and my team loses. Loss.
* Teammate disconnects and my team wins. No wait that never happened.
This is actually true. Could be something about the time someone disconnects not making the game count.
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On April 19 2012 19:54 Tryhat wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 19:13 TheYango wrote:On April 19 2012 19:06 Tryhat wrote:
I never understood why people suggest drums instead of vanguard. They're nothing alike. Items that are better and cheaper than drums for survivability: Ogre club, PMS (likely), Vitality Booster, any Armor+Magic Res combo. Then there are things like Ultimate Orb, Sange, Heaven's Halberd, etc. Also, if you a buy a vit booster or ogre club or something like that you can upgrade it into an actual late game item, instead of just wasting a slot like you are with drums.
Okay if you like drums, but I don't understand how it in any way is a vanguard replacement. I've seen it suggested on ranged heroes instead of vanguard as well. Can someone explain? You don't buy Drums for just generic survivability. You buy Drum's for early teamfighting power. Which is what many of those heroes want, and what many people bough pre-nerf Vanguard for (e.g. back when ranged Vanguard was still absurd). Janggo doesn't replace the exact functionality, but it fills the implicit purpose that many people often are accustomed to getting Vanguard for. The only other item in the game that gives a comparable mix of both self fighting stats AND team benefit at that stage of the game is Mekansm, and Mek is both mana-intensive to use, and is worthless in multiples. In the case of Panda, you're not interested in a straight survivability item--so long as your ultimate is up, surviving a fight isn't your problem. What you want is a teamfighting item that advances your up-front fighting power, both inside your Ultimate and out, and that's what Janggo accomplishes. If you want straight survivability items, you should obviously buy straight survivability items. Janggo gives one of the most well-rounded mix of self- and team- teamfighting stats for it's cost. Most of the ranged heroes that you see people suggest it on are semicarries that want that kind of teamfighting power at that stage of the game. So you wouldn't recommend it if you're playing a hardcarry style then I presume. What about on Viper, QoP or someone like Razor? Vanguard still viable? Are drums (if you play them like the team's carry)?
Vanguards are technically viable, but not always needed. For example. QoP has nice escape abilities and should focus on getting her dps down, getting that scepter out. The Viper does not need the Vanguard since you usually want something like Manta which gets you a nice stat boost as well as survivability. You can also in theory go shadow blade to get your dps higher and be able to escape.
I myself go Vanguard for Razor but that is my personal choice. I do not remember how others have used Razor in the past. So I cannot recall if they had it or not. I do know that heroes I really go vanguard for would be Axe (well... he is axe after all hehe) and Anti-Mage. Since I want the survivability so I can farm up and well, completely (potentially own) later on.
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On April 19 2012 20:27 Nilrem wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 19:54 Tryhat wrote:On April 19 2012 19:13 TheYango wrote:On April 19 2012 19:06 Tryhat wrote:
I never understood why people suggest drums instead of vanguard. They're nothing alike. Items that are better and cheaper than drums for survivability: Ogre club, PMS (likely), Vitality Booster, any Armor+Magic Res combo. Then there are things like Ultimate Orb, Sange, Heaven's Halberd, etc. Also, if you a buy a vit booster or ogre club or something like that you can upgrade it into an actual late game item, instead of just wasting a slot like you are with drums.
Okay if you like drums, but I don't understand how it in any way is a vanguard replacement. I've seen it suggested on ranged heroes instead of vanguard as well. Can someone explain? You don't buy Drums for just generic survivability. You buy Drum's for early teamfighting power. Which is what many of those heroes want, and what many people bough pre-nerf Vanguard for (e.g. back when ranged Vanguard was still absurd). Janggo doesn't replace the exact functionality, but it fills the implicit purpose that many people often are accustomed to getting Vanguard for. The only other item in the game that gives a comparable mix of both self fighting stats AND team benefit at that stage of the game is Mekansm, and Mek is both mana-intensive to use, and is worthless in multiples. In the case of Panda, you're not interested in a straight survivability item--so long as your ultimate is up, surviving a fight isn't your problem. What you want is a teamfighting item that advances your up-front fighting power, both inside your Ultimate and out, and that's what Janggo accomplishes. If you want straight survivability items, you should obviously buy straight survivability items. Janggo gives one of the most well-rounded mix of self- and team- teamfighting stats for it's cost. Most of the ranged heroes that you see people suggest it on are semicarries that want that kind of teamfighting power at that stage of the game. So you wouldn't recommend it if you're playing a hardcarry style then I presume. What about on Viper, QoP or someone like Razor? Vanguard still viable? Are drums (if you play them like the team's carry)? Vanguards are technically viable, but not always needed. For example. QoP has nice escape abilities and should focus on getting her dps down, getting that scepter out. The Viper does not need the Vanguard since you usually want something like Manta which gets you a nice stat boost as well as survivability. You can also in theory go shadow blade to get your dps higher and be able to escape. I myself go Vanguard for Razor but that is my personal choice. I do not remember how others have used Razor in the past. So I cannot recall if they had it or not. I do know that heroes I really go vanguard for would be Axe (well... he is axe after all hehe) and Anti-Mage. Since I want the survivability so I can farm up and well, completely (potentially own) later on.
Any hero needs to be able to take a few hits to dish out their damage, including QoP which is why I kinda like Vanguard on her (and would like it even more if not for the ranged nerf). I notice you don't even mention Spectre, Dark Seer, Clockwerk, Doombringer, Alchemist, Riki and Batrider, all of which are excellent Vanguard carriers, which is why I will take your advice with a grain of salt. 
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On April 19 2012 20:43 Tryhat wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 20:27 Nilrem wrote:On April 19 2012 19:54 Tryhat wrote:On April 19 2012 19:13 TheYango wrote:On April 19 2012 19:06 Tryhat wrote:
I never understood why people suggest drums instead of vanguard. They're nothing alike. Items that are better and cheaper than drums for survivability: Ogre club, PMS (likely), Vitality Booster, any Armor+Magic Res combo. Then there are things like Ultimate Orb, Sange, Heaven's Halberd, etc. Also, if you a buy a vit booster or ogre club or something like that you can upgrade it into an actual late game item, instead of just wasting a slot like you are with drums.
Okay if you like drums, but I don't understand how it in any way is a vanguard replacement. I've seen it suggested on ranged heroes instead of vanguard as well. Can someone explain? You don't buy Drums for just generic survivability. You buy Drum's for early teamfighting power. Which is what many of those heroes want, and what many people bough pre-nerf Vanguard for (e.g. back when ranged Vanguard was still absurd). Janggo doesn't replace the exact functionality, but it fills the implicit purpose that many people often are accustomed to getting Vanguard for. The only other item in the game that gives a comparable mix of both self fighting stats AND team benefit at that stage of the game is Mekansm, and Mek is both mana-intensive to use, and is worthless in multiples. In the case of Panda, you're not interested in a straight survivability item--so long as your ultimate is up, surviving a fight isn't your problem. What you want is a teamfighting item that advances your up-front fighting power, both inside your Ultimate and out, and that's what Janggo accomplishes. If you want straight survivability items, you should obviously buy straight survivability items. Janggo gives one of the most well-rounded mix of self- and team- teamfighting stats for it's cost. Most of the ranged heroes that you see people suggest it on are semicarries that want that kind of teamfighting power at that stage of the game. So you wouldn't recommend it if you're playing a hardcarry style then I presume. What about on Viper, QoP or someone like Razor? Vanguard still viable? Are drums (if you play them like the team's carry)? Vanguards are technically viable, but not always needed. For example. QoP has nice escape abilities and should focus on getting her dps down, getting that scepter out. The Viper does not need the Vanguard since you usually want something like Manta which gets you a nice stat boost as well as survivability. You can also in theory go shadow blade to get your dps higher and be able to escape. I myself go Vanguard for Razor but that is my personal choice. I do not remember how others have used Razor in the past. So I cannot recall if they had it or not. I do know that heroes I really go vanguard for would be Axe (well... he is axe after all hehe) and Anti-Mage. Since I want the survivability so I can farm up and well, completely (potentially own) later on. Any hero needs to be able to take a few hits to dish out their damage, including QoP which is why I kinda like Vanguard on her (and would like it even more if not for the ranged nerf). I notice you don't even mention Spectre, Dark Seer, Clockwerk, Doombringer, Alchemist, Riki and Batrider, all of which are excellent Vanguard carriers, which is why I will take your advice with a grain of salt.
Vanguard on QoP is a waste of money - space - and time.
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yea u'd be better off just getting a point booster
vanguard is for heroes that
1. need roh to stay in lane
2. need vit booster for more hp
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Lalalaland34505 Posts
On April 19 2012 20:25 Tryhat wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 20:08 Firebolt145 wrote:
Something I've not figured out yet but is important. If someone else leaves the game/dc's and it says 'this game is now safe to leave', does it add a win/loss to your record after that? I just had a game where one of the opponents dc'd at the very beginning, and 2 other teammates and 1 of mine left, leaving it as our 4 against their 2. I wanted to leave because it was a stupid game at that point but didn't want to risk getting a loss on my record for it. Since we talked about it last I've been very observant of what actually happens when someone disconnects. So far I've experienced this (100% sure): * Opponent disconnects but my team still loses. Loss. * Opponent disconnects but my team wins. No win. * Teammate disconnects and my team loses. Loss. * Teammate disconnects and my team wins. No wait that never happened. This is actually true. Could be something about the time someone disconnects not making the game count.
So...if an opponent dc's, I'm forced to play out the entire game to avoid a loss but for no benefit? That makes no sense.
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On April 19 2012 20:55 Firebolt145 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 20:25 Tryhat wrote:On April 19 2012 20:08 Firebolt145 wrote:
Something I've not figured out yet but is important. If someone else leaves the game/dc's and it says 'this game is now safe to leave', does it add a win/loss to your record after that? I just had a game where one of the opponents dc'd at the very beginning, and 2 other teammates and 1 of mine left, leaving it as our 4 against their 2. I wanted to leave because it was a stupid game at that point but didn't want to risk getting a loss on my record for it. Since we talked about it last I've been very observant of what actually happens when someone disconnects. So far I've experienced this (100% sure): * Opponent disconnects but my team still loses. Loss. * Opponent disconnects but my team wins. No win. * Teammate disconnects and my team loses. Loss. * Teammate disconnects and my team wins. No wait that never happened. This is actually true. Could be something about the time someone disconnects not making the game count. So...if an opponent dc's, I'm forced to play out the entire game to avoid a loss but for no benefit? That makes no sense.
you can force a loss?
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Lalalaland34505 Posts
On April 19 2012 20:58 Doraemon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 20:55 Firebolt145 wrote:On April 19 2012 20:25 Tryhat wrote:On April 19 2012 20:08 Firebolt145 wrote:
Something I've not figured out yet but is important. If someone else leaves the game/dc's and it says 'this game is now safe to leave', does it add a win/loss to your record after that? I just had a game where one of the opponents dc'd at the very beginning, and 2 other teammates and 1 of mine left, leaving it as our 4 against their 2. I wanted to leave because it was a stupid game at that point but didn't want to risk getting a loss on my record for it. Since we talked about it last I've been very observant of what actually happens when someone disconnects. So far I've experienced this (100% sure): * Opponent disconnects but my team still loses. Loss. * Opponent disconnects but my team wins. No win. * Teammate disconnects and my team loses. Loss. * Teammate disconnects and my team wins. No wait that never happened. This is actually true. Could be something about the time someone disconnects not making the game count. So...if an opponent dc's, I'm forced to play out the entire game to avoid a loss but for no benefit? That makes no sense. you can force a loss?
Please clarify?
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On April 19 2012 20:25 Tryhat wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 20:08 Firebolt145 wrote:
Something I've not figured out yet but is important. If someone else leaves the game/dc's and it says 'this game is now safe to leave', does it add a win/loss to your record after that? I just had a game where one of the opponents dc'd at the very beginning, and 2 other teammates and 1 of mine left, leaving it as our 4 against their 2. I wanted to leave because it was a stupid game at that point but didn't want to risk getting a loss on my record for it. Since we talked about it last I've been very observant of what actually happens when someone disconnects. So far I've experienced this (100% sure): * Opponent disconnects but my team still loses. Loss. * Opponent disconnects but my team wins. No win. * Teammate disconnects and my team loses. Loss. * Teammate disconnects and my team wins. No wait that never happened. This is actually true. Could be something about the time someone disconnects not making the game count.
I'm pretty sure you don't get a win, it happened to me last night.
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On April 19 2012 20:55 Firebolt145 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 20:25 Tryhat wrote:On April 19 2012 20:08 Firebolt145 wrote:
Something I've not figured out yet but is important. If someone else leaves the game/dc's and it says 'this game is now safe to leave', does it add a win/loss to your record after that? I just had a game where one of the opponents dc'd at the very beginning, and 2 other teammates and 1 of mine left, leaving it as our 4 against their 2. I wanted to leave because it was a stupid game at that point but didn't want to risk getting a loss on my record for it. Since we talked about it last I've been very observant of what actually happens when someone disconnects. So far I've experienced this (100% sure): * Opponent disconnects but my team still loses. Loss. * Opponent disconnects but my team wins. No win. * Teammate disconnects and my team loses. Loss. * Teammate disconnects and my team wins. No wait that never happened. This is actually true. Could be something about the time someone disconnects not making the game count. So...if an opponent dc's, I'm forced to play out the entire game to avoid a loss but for no benefit? That makes no sense.
If you don't know what the specific rules are for that particular game and that particular time of disconnection, you are fighting for a *possible* win, I guess. I'm not sure the opponents are freerolling or not. It would be retarded if they were, yes. It could be that for some times the game is nullified whether you win or lose. However, because luck will always favor those who do not deserve it, the likely scenario is that whenever you win you will find that you have not been rewarded with a win, and whenever you lose you will find that you have been penalized with a loss. But that's just life, you know.
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On April 19 2012 20:51 taran wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 20:43 Tryhat wrote:On April 19 2012 20:27 Nilrem wrote:On April 19 2012 19:54 Tryhat wrote:On April 19 2012 19:13 TheYango wrote:On April 19 2012 19:06 Tryhat wrote:
I never understood why people suggest drums instead of vanguard. They're nothing alike. Items that are better and cheaper than drums for survivability: Ogre club, PMS (likely), Vitality Booster, any Armor+Magic Res combo. Then there are things like Ultimate Orb, Sange, Heaven's Halberd, etc. Also, if you a buy a vit booster or ogre club or something like that you can upgrade it into an actual late game item, instead of just wasting a slot like you are with drums.
Okay if you like drums, but I don't understand how it in any way is a vanguard replacement. I've seen it suggested on ranged heroes instead of vanguard as well. Can someone explain? You don't buy Drums for just generic survivability. You buy Drum's for early teamfighting power. Which is what many of those heroes want, and what many people bough pre-nerf Vanguard for (e.g. back when ranged Vanguard was still absurd). Janggo doesn't replace the exact functionality, but it fills the implicit purpose that many people often are accustomed to getting Vanguard for. The only other item in the game that gives a comparable mix of both self fighting stats AND team benefit at that stage of the game is Mekansm, and Mek is both mana-intensive to use, and is worthless in multiples. In the case of Panda, you're not interested in a straight survivability item--so long as your ultimate is up, surviving a fight isn't your problem. What you want is a teamfighting item that advances your up-front fighting power, both inside your Ultimate and out, and that's what Janggo accomplishes. If you want straight survivability items, you should obviously buy straight survivability items. Janggo gives one of the most well-rounded mix of self- and team- teamfighting stats for it's cost. Most of the ranged heroes that you see people suggest it on are semicarries that want that kind of teamfighting power at that stage of the game. So you wouldn't recommend it if you're playing a hardcarry style then I presume. What about on Viper, QoP or someone like Razor? Vanguard still viable? Are drums (if you play them like the team's carry)? Vanguards are technically viable, but not always needed. For example. QoP has nice escape abilities and should focus on getting her dps down, getting that scepter out. The Viper does not need the Vanguard since you usually want something like Manta which gets you a nice stat boost as well as survivability. You can also in theory go shadow blade to get your dps higher and be able to escape. I myself go Vanguard for Razor but that is my personal choice. I do not remember how others have used Razor in the past. So I cannot recall if they had it or not. I do know that heroes I really go vanguard for would be Axe (well... he is axe after all hehe) and Anti-Mage. Since I want the survivability so I can farm up and well, completely (potentially own) later on. Any hero needs to be able to take a few hits to dish out their damage, including QoP which is why I kinda like Vanguard on her (and would like it even more if not for the ranged nerf). I notice you don't even mention Spectre, Dark Seer, Clockwerk, Doombringer, Alchemist, Riki and Batrider, all of which are excellent Vanguard carriers, which is why I will take your advice with a grain of salt. Vanguard on QoP is a waste of money - space - and time.
This. Even with Vanguard, QoP can't survive autoattack damage, so getting the straight hp/mana items is better (RoH + shield is nearly a point booster). With a 6sec cd blink and all ranged abilities, you need to be positioning better if you think that vanguard is a good buy on her.
e: Watch any good player and you'll see their QoP running around with INT treads almost 100% of the time. Don't take damage on that hero, deal it and get out. It's only late midgame -> late game when you have a lot stronger stats that you start really tanking damage to autoattack.
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On April 19 2012 20:25 Tryhat wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 20:08 Firebolt145 wrote:
Something I've not figured out yet but is important. If someone else leaves the game/dc's and it says 'this game is now safe to leave', does it add a win/loss to your record after that? I just had a game where one of the opponents dc'd at the very beginning, and 2 other teammates and 1 of mine left, leaving it as our 4 against their 2. I wanted to leave because it was a stupid game at that point but didn't want to risk getting a loss on my record for it. Since we talked about it last I've been very observant of what actually happens when someone disconnects. So far I've experienced this (100% sure): * Opponent disconnects but my team still loses. Loss. * Opponent disconnects but my team wins. No win. * Teammate disconnects and my team loses. Loss. * Teammate disconnects and my team wins. No wait that never happened. This is actually true. Could be something about the time someone disconnects not making the game count.
Current Abandon Logic
If you are disconnected for more than 5 minutes cumulative you will get an Abandon. This includes multiple instances, like 3 times for 2 minutes each.
Current Win/Loss Logic
If you abandon a game, you will get a loss, even if you come back, finish the game, and win.
If there is a server crash (not just your system crashing) it won't count as a win or loss for anyone.
If there is an abandon at the beginning of the game then the game will not count as a Win or Loss for either team. Still clarifying when the exact cutoff is.
Quote:
Here are the rules for what happens when there is a leaver in a game:
Games with the wrong number of players at start never count - not really a problem any more but used to happen occasionally.
If there is a leaver before any action has occurred then wins/losses are not recorded. The exception to this is if the team with the leaver manages to win 4v5 then the game will still count (this doesn't happen very often and when it does those guys deserve the win).
If there is a leaver later in the game then wins and losses will be awarded appropriately (the leaver always loses). People can leave if they don't want to play 4v5 and they will not get an abandon point. People who leave after this point will not automatically get a loss like the first leaver but will get a win or a loss based on the outcome of the game.
Wish i new the time for the cuttoff :/
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So an early leaver is GREAT for the leaver's team. They're freerolling. Quote from earlier: That's retarded.
It would be nice to know what that cutoff time is exactly.
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It's after first blood.
IIRC.
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EPT
