EPTGeneral Discussion - Page 376
| Forum Index > Dota 2 General |
IRC chatter should remain in IRC - http://webchat.quakenet.org/?channels=tl.dota2 Posts that relate to topics with their own thread, such as in News, Tournaments or Strategy should go in those threads. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
| ||
|
Spicy_Curry
United States10573 Posts
On April 11 2012 19:22 TheYango wrote: So, LGD just completely shitstomped aL in a scrim. You learn more when you lose, especially against a chinese team. Im assuming that it was played on HK servers. | ||
flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26782 Posts
On April 11 2012 17:34 Crissaegrim wrote: Hmm not very complete. If you talk about heroes picked consistently in Pro games then you definitely need to include Tide, SandK, VENO. and to a lesser extent even naix. oh yeah oops i kind of just ran through and listed heroes; going to forget a few | ||
|
NB
Netherlands12045 Posts
The main and out most differences are the support centric meta game instead of carry centric in western scene. As we know the supports that are tier 1 currently are very limit in number: ES, Tide, VS, SK, Lion, CM and ES is the strongest of all. Instead of picking some early carries such as AM, riki or strong pushers such as Leshrac BM, SEA teams often secure themselves a strong support disabler in the first 3 picks and proceed to ban/force pick the others. Another common seen difference between eastern and western is that eastern often think Brood = auto win. Brood becomes top ban/pick in eastern while in western people often think of brood as a situational pusher and could be easily countered by the last 2 picks. This could partly explain the ES top ban pick bc which ever team got ES could run a brood team much easier. the asians also use batrider a lot but i guess western teams started to pick bat a bit more now after joindota master cup. On how eastern teams play the game, we could also see they farm a LOT compare to western. Support farm, carry farm, everybody farm farm so they have a much stronger late game line up while western teams often roam their supports to gank and create rooms for carries to farm. Most teams play with a 'hard carry' formation instead of 'ganking'/'pushing' as opposed to the ganking team fight line ups we often see in western scene (this is why tide is currently top pick). Idk, may be i need to watch a lot more but the above are main points i wanted discuss. | ||
|
rabidch
United States20289 Posts
On April 11 2012 19:51 NB wrote: man, i wish there is a wikipedia that record all the ban/pick in tournaments so i could compare the different between eastern meta game and western. The main and out most differences are the support centric meta game instead of carry centric in western scene. As we know the supports that are tier 1 currently are very limit in number: ES, Tide, VS, SK, Lion, CM and ES is the strongest of all. Instead of picking some early carries such as AM, riki or strong pushers such as Leshrac BM, SEA teams often secure themselves a strong support disabler in the first 3 picks and proceed to ban/force pick the others. Another common seen difference between eastern and western is that eastern often think Brood = auto win. Brood becomes top ban/pick in eastern while in western people often think of brood as a situational pusher and could be easily countered by the last 2 picks. This could partly explain the ES top ban pick bc which ever team got ES could run a brood team much easier. the asians also use batrider a lot but i guess western teams started to pick bat a bit more now after joindota master cup. On how eastern teams play the game, we could also see they farm a LOT compare to western. Support farm, carry farm, everybody farm farm so they have a much stronger late game line up while western teams often roam their supports to gank and create rooms for carries to farm. Most teams play with a 'hard carry' formation instead of 'ganking'/'pushing' as opposed to the ganking team fight line ups we often see in western scene (this is why tide is currently top pick). Idk, may be i need to watch a lot more but the above are main points i wanted discuss. brood isnt as strong a pick anymore in china | ||
|
Dead9
United States4725 Posts
is the complete absence of dk/pugna it's like the heroes don't even exist also aa/es seem to be extremely rare for no reason as well | ||
|
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On April 11 2012 20:01 Dead9 wrote: u know what's really weird is the complete absence of dk/pugna it's like the heroes don't even exist also aa/es seem to be extremely rare for no reason as well LGD picked DK, ES, AA, WR, DS aL picked NS, Chen, Veno, QoP, Beastmaster I didn't get to see the bans, but I would assume that they include Lycan, Invoker, Bat, and Furion as at least 4 of them. LGD's draft would be insane in DotA 1 (ES and AA even making it through bans would be surprising enough). No Chinese teams would let them get ridiculous picks like that. But in DotA 2, all of those except WR and DS are heavily undervalued. Basically aL did nothing to stop LGD from playing an incredibly strong draft that they're very comfortable playing. This is partly why I was confused by the way DK picked/banned in the jD Masters. If they'd just picked to the way they play DotA 1, they probably would have done fine. Their picks felt awkward because they put a lot of people on heroes I don't normally see them play in DotA 1. | ||
|
Dead9
United States4725 Posts
china will probably start winning stuff if they actually practice, but a random scrim doesn't really mean too much edit: i doubt dk played much dota 2, they were probably just copying other picks or screwing around it's a winner take all tournament with a relatively small prize pool | ||
|
Kupon3ss
時の回廊10066 Posts
Banlist collection from recent G-1 (40 games) Batrider - 36 Lycan - 31 Kael - 28 Chaos Knight - 27 Furion - 24 Panda - 23 AA - 22 BR - 19 ES - 18 NS - 15 VS - 14 Pugna - 13 Sylla - 12 DK - 11 CM - 9 WR - 8 Slardar - 9 Veno - 8 Shadow Demon - 8 Weaver - 7 Shadow Shaman - 7 (Antimage essentially not banned (only once b4 final, though was banned once in the final) (DS only banned once, though used to great effect in the final) (rest omitted cuz lazy and more or less irrelevant) Its strange that most people's conception of the China meta is from 2010 and then the International (where they were forced to go back to a style similar to 2010 due to lack of ported heroes) Maybe I should write a China meta thread or something, since it seems that they're starting to pick up dota 2 somewhat seriously source:http://bbs.sgamer.com/thread-10418574-1-1.html (I added in the data from the Finals) | ||
|
Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
| ||
|
Dattish
Sweden6297 Posts
| ||
|
Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
| ||
|
rabidch
United States20289 Posts
On April 11 2012 20:29 Itsmedudeman wrote: Saw EG run him a few times. Definitely wasn't impressed even a bit and looked like a mediocre pick just to mix it up. EG mostly played him when he was bugged. :/ | ||
|
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On April 11 2012 20:23 Kupon3ss wrote: + Show Spoiler + Its been over a year since the Chinese has moved away from the single hard carry formation Banlist collection from recent G-1 (40 games) Batrider - 36 Lycan - 31 Kael - 28 Chaos Knight - 27 Furion - 24 Panda - 23 AA - 22 BR - 19 ES - 18 NS - 15 VS - 14 Pugna - 13 Sylla - 12 DK - 11 CM - 9 WR - 8 Slardar - 9 Veno - 8 Shadow Demon - 8 Weaver - 7 Shadow Shaman - 7 (Antimage essentially not banned (only once b4 final, though was banned once in the final) (DS only banned once, though used to great effect in the final) (rest omitted cuz lazy and more or less irrelevant) Its strange that most people's conception of the China meta is from 2010 and then the International (where they were forced to go back to a style similar to 2010 due to lack of ported heroes) Maybe I should write a China meta thread or something, since it seems that they're starting to pick up dota 2 somewhat seriously source:http://bbs.sgamer.com/thread-10418574-1-1.html (I added in the data from the Finals) Thanks for this. I was going to try and find/collect this myself, but you saved me a lot of time. (DS only banned once, though used to great effect in the final) It's sort of funny, because Chinese teams suddenly discovered how insane pre-6.74 Agha DS is right in that intervening month between G-1 Loser's Finals and G-1 Finals. He got picked here and there by a few teams, and then suddenly exploded when lots of teams suddenly started picking him in NGF and HFGL I think. On April 11 2012 20:27 Itsmedudeman wrote: Damn, batrider? For real? Bat has been must-ban in China for a REALLY long time now. | ||
|
Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
| ||
|
rabidch
United States20289 Posts
| ||
|
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On April 11 2012 20:23 Kupon3ss wrote: (Antimage essentially not banned (only once b4 final, though was banned once in the final) Doesn't this mean Meepo got banned more than Antimage?  IIRC iG banned Meepo twice vs AOL (because Niuwa is on AOL). | ||
|
Kupon3ss
時の回廊10066 Posts
The current China meta revolves around midgame TEAMFIGHT semicarries (Panda CK DK Kael Lycan Sylla etc) as opposed to raw the raw push/teamfight power usually favored by the west. This is likely due to the fact that the Chinese are far better at turtling and not running into stupid engagements when the other side has a teamfight advantage, so while having the midgame teamfight advantage is important, its not as crushing if all u can do with it is push some outer towers and secure map controll (instead of just repeatedly killing the other team over and over and winning zzzzzzzzz) | ||
|
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On April 11 2012 20:38 Kupon3ss wrote: Basically, aside from Batrider, which is seen as hugely OP and a counter to everything in the game (though it is my opinon that he's no longer so gamebreaking but teams just ban him out of habit). Every other hero is occasionally used and their effectively is more or less reflected by the ban. I think your theory will be put to the test in the next few weeks. IIRC a commentator said LongDD was complaining that with the new 6.74 -cm heroes, there's not enough bans to get rid of Rubick/Thrall/Wisp while still dealing with the older "must-ban" heroes. I'd expect teams to start experimenting with what really can and can't get left off the ban list, so we'll see some major re-evaluation of the Chinese list of "must-ban" heroes. | ||
|
Kupon3ss
時の回廊10066 Posts
Rubick Thrall Wisp are probably going to be in it, though I don't feel like any of them are gamebreaking by themselves, DK bans them out of habit because of their safe consistent style and not wanting to be cheesed in the early stages of the new meta DS: borrowed from the Dota2 meta, strong against a lot of the heros in the current Chinese meta and shown to utterly crush WE in the G-1 finals (admittedly this was pre-nerf), so should be pretty high for a while while teams adjust to it TC: yeah, shit's pretty strong, and the ult is devastating in a meta that relies on facepwn heroes that just charge you Terrorblade: This is pretty bullshit, though it'll take a team with the balls to pick it up and destroy with it before you'll see it banned Morphling: Yeahok, we've nerfed all the old hard carries and buffed this, which has always had good midgame presence, but same as above in that he won't be banned until after some rape ensues | ||
| ||
