On February 21 2012 18:39 Hoban wrote: Antimage too stronk! I was looking at your huskar game and I'm like "How did they lose with a 23-7 huskar, an invoker, a farmed OD, and a tide?" I have been losing all day. My new beta account has been treating me with the most try-hards possible while my teammates love to not do anything but die.
haha i know the feeling. We lost for a couple reasons. The vast majority of our kills came from either me soloing 3 people, or me and invoker fighting by ourselves. OD never came to fight Plus when tide misses ravages on all 5 of them and has a blink dagger things aren't going well. Our teamfighting was horrendous, and people were getting way too overaggressive trying to push more racks with me dead. Not to say I didn't have my faults either
Edit: Woot Pudge is now my most successful hero! 7-0 ftw!
Also...holy crap dat farm on Prophet! I guess he was using the utli for actual farming as opposed to stopping pushed lanes.
Playing in a tournament at an upcoming local lan. I generally play side lane solo or jungle with my team. I am not very strong with Chen yet and I would like to get a good feel for him before the tournament. Does anyone remember some good Chen games from recent tournaments?
Puppey plays an excellent Chen roughly all the time. The vod thread should have a couple recent ones in it, I think it was navi vs dignitas. Bit of a stomp though. Also any of the navi games from the international where they get Chen are worth a look.
Oh man totally forgot we have a super awesome amazing vod thread! Wow, it is even bookmarked at the top of my browser. Rofl. Well thanks going to take a look now.
I watched Dendi playing Viper on his stream, and he explained why MoM is a good item to get - tried it out and...holy shit does Viper rip through Agis/Ints midgame. Like *poof* DOUBLE KILL. Enemy Weaver couldn't enter teamfights when I wasn't stunned/dead.
On February 21 2012 18:39 Hoban wrote: Antimage too stronk! I was looking at your huskar game and I'm like "How did they lose with a 23-7 huskar, an invoker, a farmed OD, and a tide?" I have been losing all day. My new beta account has been treating me with the most try-hards possible while my teammates love to not do anything but die.
haha i know the feeling. We lost for a couple reasons. The vast majority of our kills came from either me soloing 3 people, or me and invoker fighting by ourselves. OD never came to fight Plus when tide misses ravages on all 5 of them and has a blink dagger things aren't going well. Our teamfighting was horrendous, and people were getting way too overaggressive trying to push more racks with me dead. Not to say I didn't have my faults either
Edit: Woot Pudge is now my most successful hero! 7-0 ftw!
Also...holy crap dat farm on Prophet! I guess he was using the utli for actual farming as opposed to stopping pushed lanes.
Ya wtf is up with all these prophet I see going lothars in pubs now. So annoying.
On February 21 2012 18:39 Hoban wrote: Antimage too stronk! I was looking at your huskar game and I'm like "How did they lose with a 23-7 huskar, an invoker, a farmed OD, and a tide?" I have been losing all day. My new beta account has been treating me with the most try-hards possible while my teammates love to not do anything but die.
haha i know the feeling. We lost for a couple reasons. The vast majority of our kills came from either me soloing 3 people, or me and invoker fighting by ourselves. OD never came to fight Plus when tide misses ravages on all 5 of them and has a blink dagger things aren't going well. Our teamfighting was horrendous, and people were getting way too overaggressive trying to push more racks with me dead. Not to say I didn't have my faults either
Edit: Woot Pudge is now my most successful hero! 7-0 ftw!
correct me if im wrong but i never find huskar any useful in teamfight... like he is a good initiator but thats it...
in this case you have a tide too so initiating isnt a problem either. i think there should be strategy revolving smoke gank when you have huskar and try to force team fight only when u picked off 1 or 2 heroes on the enemy team... same with pudge, BS, BH and all the other mid game melee ganking heroes (except NS ofc)
On February 22 2012 03:14 ChrisXIV wrote: I watched Dendi playing Viper on his stream, and he explained why MoM is a good item to get - tried it out and...holy shit does Viper rip through Agis/Ints midgame. Like *poof* DOUBLE KILL. Enemy Weaver couldn't enter teamfights when I wasn't stunned/dead.
Interesting how this is the exact opposite of how I've seen Chinese players play Viper. From what I've seen, they prefer to abuse how Corrosive Skin's defensive capabilities scale multiplicatively off any other defensive items you have, opting for purely defensive items (Heart, Pipe, Cuirass, etc.) until you're nigh-unkillable, only opting for damage super-lategame, with Agi items that still add to your survivability (Butterfly, Manta Style).
On February 22 2012 03:14 ChrisXIV wrote: I watched Dendi playing Viper on his stream, and he explained why MoM is a good item to get - tried it out and...holy shit does Viper rip through Agis/Ints midgame. Like *poof* DOUBLE KILL. Enemy Weaver couldn't enter teamfights when I wasn't stunned/dead.
Interesting how this is the exact opposite of how I've seen Chinese players play Viper. From what I've seen, they prefer to abuse how Corrosive Skin's defensive capabilities scale multiplicatively off any other defensive items you have, opting for purely defensive items (Heart, Pipe, Cuirass, etc.) until you're nigh-unkillable, only opting for damage lategame, with Agi items that still add to your survivability (Butterfly, Manta Style).
That's because you're watching competitive games. He was watching Dendi play on his stream: pub stomping. With his first and second skill early game, you can rape people very quickly with MoM.
On February 22 2012 03:14 ChrisXIV wrote: I watched Dendi playing Viper on his stream, and he explained why MoM is a good item to get - tried it out and...holy shit does Viper rip through Agis/Ints midgame. Like *poof* DOUBLE KILL. Enemy Weaver couldn't enter teamfights when I wasn't stunned/dead.
Interesting how this is the exact opposite of how I've seen Chinese players play Viper. From what I've seen, they prefer to abuse how Corrosive Skin's defensive capabilities scale multiplicatively off any other defensive items you have, opting for purely defensive items (Heart, Pipe, Cuirass, etc.) until you're nigh-unkillable, only opting for damage lategame, with Agi items that still add to your survivability (Butterfly, Manta Style).
That's because you're watching competitive games. He was watching Dendi play on his stream: pub stomping. With his first and second skill early game, you can rape people very quickly with MoM.
I meant in pubs. I don't remember the last time I've actually seen Viper in a Chinese competitive game anyway.
I'm not trying to argue that it's better. I just think that's one of the interesting things about DotA--how well you can develop such disparate and completely opposite ways to play the same hero.
The two builds share a common base idea, they try to maximize the number of attacks he gets in a fight. They're both doing the same thing, it just happens different ways and each might be better for that in different situations.
On February 22 2012 03:14 ChrisXIV wrote: I watched Dendi playing Viper on his stream, and he explained why MoM is a good item to get - tried it out and...holy shit does Viper rip through Agis/Ints midgame. Like *poof* DOUBLE KILL. Enemy Weaver couldn't enter teamfights when I wasn't stunned/dead.
Interesting how this is the exact opposite of how I've seen Chinese players play Viper. From what I've seen, they prefer to abuse how Corrosive Skin's defensive capabilities scale multiplicatively off any other defensive items you have, opting for purely defensive items (Heart, Pipe, Cuirass, etc.) until you're nigh-unkillable, only opting for damage lategame, with Agi items that still add to your survivability (Butterfly, Manta Style).
That's because you're watching competitive games. He was watching Dendi play on his stream: pub stomping. With his first and second skill early game, you can rape people very quickly with MoM.
I meant in pubs. I don't remember the last time I've actually seen Viper in a Chinese competitive game anyway.
I'm not trying to argue that it's better. I just think that's one of the interesting things about DotA--how well you can develop such disparate and completely opposite ways to play the same hero.
MoM is a great item for 'pub stomping' because of the ridiculous damage output... It just takes not getting focused, eh? Viper in the back lines of a fight... you don't notice till you're losing huge chunks of life at once thanks to Nethertoxin.
Apparently there are some TPL games where Viper is picked (I haven't watched them), but one of the few (competitive) Viper games I've seen was MUFC vs LGD.
Granted, MUFC isn't Chinese but still. I think the build was as TheYango said: first Vanguard, then Pipe to maximize defensive capabilities. Afterward came the damage items: Radiance (disagree with that choice, but eh...) and Manta.
Actually, that game was quite good if I remember correctly. I'd recommend people watch it if they haven't.
On February 21 2012 18:39 Hoban wrote: Antimage too stronk! I was looking at your huskar game and I'm like "How did they lose with a 23-7 huskar, an invoker, a farmed OD, and a tide?" I have been losing all day. My new beta account has been treating me with the most try-hards possible while my teammates love to not do anything but die.
haha i know the feeling. We lost for a couple reasons. The vast majority of our kills came from either me soloing 3 people, or me and invoker fighting by ourselves. OD never came to fight Plus when tide misses ravages on all 5 of them and has a blink dagger things aren't going well. Our teamfighting was horrendous, and people were getting way too overaggressive trying to push more racks with me dead. Not to say I didn't have my faults either
Edit: Woot Pudge is now my most successful hero! 7-0 ftw!
correct me if im wrong but i never find huskar any useful in teamfight... like he is a good initiator but thats it...
in this case you have a tide too so initiating isnt a problem either. i think there should be strategy revolving smoke gank when you have huskar and try to force team fight only when u picked off 1 or 2 heroes on the enemy team... same with pudge, BS, BH and all the other mid game melee ganking heroes (except NS ofc)
The way i feel is that without bkb up hes 100% useless. Also I agree with him being a kind of trash teamfighter, in that game at the point i had double anti mages farm, he was still probably more usefull in a straight teamfight than me. In hindsight i probably built wrong, I think I should have gotten Heaven's Halberrd for the evasion and disarm for anti mage.
On February 21 2012 18:39 Hoban wrote: Antimage too stronk! I was looking at your huskar game and I'm like "How did they lose with a 23-7 huskar, an invoker, a farmed OD, and a tide?" I have been losing all day. My new beta account has been treating me with the most try-hards possible while my teammates love to not do anything but die.
haha i know the feeling. We lost for a couple reasons. The vast majority of our kills came from either me soloing 3 people, or me and invoker fighting by ourselves. OD never came to fight Plus when tide misses ravages on all 5 of them and has a blink dagger things aren't going well. Our teamfighting was horrendous, and people were getting way too overaggressive trying to push more racks with me dead. Not to say I didn't have my faults either
Edit: Woot Pudge is now my most successful hero! 7-0 ftw!
correct me if im wrong but i never find huskar any useful in teamfight... like he is a good initiator but thats it...
in this case you have a tide too so initiating isnt a problem either. i think there should be strategy revolving smoke gank when you have huskar and try to force team fight only when u picked off 1 or 2 heroes on the enemy team... same with pudge, BS, BH and all the other mid game melee ganking heroes (except NS ofc)
The way i feel is that without bkb up hes 100% useless. Also I agree with him being a kind of trash teamfighter, in that game at the point i had double anti mages farm, he was still probably more usefull in a straight teamfight than me. In hindsight i probably built wrong, I think I should have gotten Heaven's Halberrd for the evasion and disarm for anti mage.
Ghost Scepter is actually a reasonable option for that purpose. You can still manual cast orbs through the Ethereal effect, so as long as you don't kill yourself by Ghost Scepter-ing into SK/Lich ults, it can be good.
On February 21 2012 18:39 Hoban wrote: Antimage too stronk! I was looking at your huskar game and I'm like "How did they lose with a 23-7 huskar, an invoker, a farmed OD, and a tide?" I have been losing all day. My new beta account has been treating me with the most try-hards possible while my teammates love to not do anything but die.
haha i know the feeling. We lost for a couple reasons. The vast majority of our kills came from either me soloing 3 people, or me and invoker fighting by ourselves. OD never came to fight Plus when tide misses ravages on all 5 of them and has a blink dagger things aren't going well. Our teamfighting was horrendous, and people were getting way too overaggressive trying to push more racks with me dead. Not to say I didn't have my faults either
Edit: Woot Pudge is now my most successful hero! 7-0 ftw!
correct me if im wrong but i never find huskar any useful in teamfight... like he is a good initiator but thats it...
in this case you have a tide too so initiating isnt a problem either. i think there should be strategy revolving smoke gank when you have huskar and try to force team fight only when u picked off 1 or 2 heroes on the enemy team... same with pudge, BS, BH and all the other mid game melee ganking heroes (except NS ofc)
The way i feel is that without bkb up hes 100% useless. Also I agree with him being a kind of trash teamfighter, in that game at the point i had double anti mages farm, he was still probably more usefull in a straight teamfight than me. In hindsight i probably built wrong, I think I should have gotten Heaven's Halberrd for the evasion and disarm for anti mage.
Ghost Scepter is actually a reasonable option for that purpose. You can still manual cast orbs through the Ethereal effect, so as long as you don't kill yourself by Ghost Scepter-ing into SK/Lich ults, it can be good.
EPT
Plus when tide misses ravages on all 5 of them and has a blink dagger things aren't going well. Our teamfighting was horrendous, and people were getting way too overaggressive trying to push more racks with me dead. Not to say I didn't have my faults either
